Clans confirmed??? what you say now clan haters?

[Curhaj]

I remember I asked 2 years ago if clans will be added.
people said never because they are unbalanced...

but now what?? Clans confirmed???

[pete]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mandellorian:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Epathian:

its ok to like the clans, most people are scared of true prowess.

take pete for example. hes a bitter man since we ran sacked his homeworld and stole his wifey.

True prowess? Amateurs study tactics professionals study logistics..which is how the mighty clans lost to a bucket load of hover tanks ahooting up all those supplies and spares. Go ahead and invade again. The Clans suffer from the Khan syndrome..obsessed with being superior warriors they lose because they don`t know how to war only fight.

OR they were badly designed and poorly implemented at the time of creation and something needed to be created 'fix' them

[Bovril Brigadier]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mandellorian:

True prowess? Amateurs study tactics professionals study logistics..which is how the mighty clans lost to a bucket load of hover tanks ahooting up all those supplies and spares. Go ahead and invade again. The Clans suffer from the Khan syndrome..obsessed with being superior warriors they lose because they don`t know how to war only fight.

If you want some logistical numbers entertainment then Clan Jade Falcon had available for their frontline that they could commit in 3052 something like 807 Mechs, 1285 Elementals and 469 Aerospace. Numbers could be a bit off but not by a lot honestly, too lazy to do a recount.

What makes this entertaining is that for starters, Jade Falcons are one of the largest Clans out there and this is all they could realistically muster. Second is that I know for a fact that a full third of that Mech and Aerospace force is not even Clan Tech, they're using a lot of captured IS equipment and if they are lucky some SLDF 2750 Regular with one exceptionally lucky individual having an Atlas II.

To put it in perspective a single Regimental Combat Team consists of roughly up to 180 Mechs, approximately 500 Combat Vehicles, 5,000+ combat infantry, 80+ heavy artillery pieces, 40+ Aerospace Fighters and countless other support assets and elements. The FedCom alone in 3050 had over 50 of these to call on. Shows you really the numbers the Clans should be dealing with before we even break down into the hundreds of individual Mech and Vehicle Regiments that are also available to call on.

Overall though highlights that the writers didn't really think about what they were writing before putting pen to paper with the Clans. Realistically if the Clans pushed deeper then Tukayyid was going to seem like a gentle stroll in the park compared to what should have been in their way. Hell arguably Clans should have been encountering dozens of Tukayyid scenarios before Comstar even issued their challenge. Tech advantage can only go so far before sheer attrition warfare kicks in. Indeed Clans were initially written as not having the industrial capacity to easily bounce back from a Tukayyid scenario, something later writers kept referring to but forgetting in the very next paragraph.

[[‡]=Storky=[‡]]

Diposting pertama kali oleh pete:

OR they were badly designed and poorly implemented at the time of creation and something needed to be created 'fix' them

Original clan tech idea really seems like that.
"A clan weapon is the same weapon but 30% lighter"
I like MWO clan tech where it is not powerful, but works in a different way and feels clan'ish.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Strayed:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Mandellorian:

True prowess? Amateurs study tactics professionals study logistics..which is how the mighty clans lost to a bucket load of hover tanks ahooting up all those supplies and spares. Go ahead and invade again. The Clans suffer from the Khan syndrome..obsessed with being superior warriors they lose because they don`t know how to war only fight.

If you want some logistical numbers entertainment then Clan Jade Falcon had available for their frontline that they could commit in 3052 something like 807 Mechs, 1285 Elementals and 469 Aerospace. Numbers could be a bit off but not by a lot honestly, too lazy to do a recount.

What makes this entertaining is that for starters, Jade Falcons are one of the largest Clans out there and this is all they could realistically muster. Second is that I know for a fact that a full third of that Mech and Aerospace force is not even Clan Tech, they're using a lot of captured IS equipment and if they are lucky some SLDF 2750 Regular with one exceptionally lucky individual having an Atlas II.

To put it in perspective a single Regimental Combat Team consists of roughly up to 180 Mechs, approximately 500 Combat Vehicles, 5,000+ combat infantry, 80+ heavy artillery pieces, 40+ Aerospace Fighters and countless other support assets and elements. The FedCom alone in 3050 had over 50 of these to call on. Shows you really the numbers the Clans should be dealing with before we even break down into the hundreds of individual Mech and Vehicle Regiments that are also available to call on.

Overall though highlights that the writers didn't really think about what they were writing before putting pen to paper with the Clans. Realistically if the Clans pushed deeper then Tukayyid was going to seem like a gentle stroll in the park compared to what should have been in their way. Hell arguably Clans should have been encountering dozens of Tukayyid scenarios before Comstar even issued their challenge. Tech advantage can only go so far before sheer attrition warfare kicks in. Indeed Clans were initially written as not having the industrial capacity to easily bounce back from a Tukayyid scenario, something later writers kept referring to but forgetting in the very next paragraph.

Impressive lore knowledge. But where are these numbers from, are they based on industrial capabilities?

[Bovril Brigadier]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ‡=Storky=‡:

Impressive lore knowledge. But where are these numbers from, are they based on industrial capabilities?

Clan Jade Falcon Sourcebook, it even goes into the exact Mech and name of each pilot. Clan Wolf Sourcebook also does the same. Pulled the numbers for FedCom from their Sourcebooks.

Battletech has always been a bit silly when it comes to numbers and there has been a few deserved retcons but one thing that never changed is there was meant to only be about 1.15 billion Clanners total at time of Invasion, as in all Clans including civilian, technician, merchants and scientists. When you factor in the ratio of Warriors to this and then divide by remaining Clans that's an absurdly tiny military. Clans can cheat a bit with numbers as technician castes can act as auxiliary crew for Dropships, Warships etc but still that still doesn't make up the severe manpower disadvantage. I would triple the Jade Falcon numbers above to count for things like reserves but factor in that those numbers above also account for Garrison units pressed into the frontline role, Clans really were going all in at Tukayyid.

[Explore]

I gotta say, I'm not looking forward to fighting Elementals again! I suppose I will be taking streak SRM's. A mission or 2 playing as an Elemental might be fun though.

[Thundercracker]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Strayed:

Diposting pertama kali oleh ‡=Storky=‡:

Impressive lore knowledge. But where are these numbers from, are they based on industrial capabilities?

Clan Jade Falcon Sourcebook, it even goes into the exact Mech and name of each pilot. Clan Wolf Sourcebook also does the same. Pulled the numbers for FedCom from their Sourcebooks.

Battletech has always been a bit silly when it comes to numbers and there has been a few deserved retcons but one thing that never changed is there was meant to only be about 1.15 billion Clanners total at time of Invasion, as in all Clans including civilian, technician, merchants and scientists. When you factor in the ratio of Warriors to this and then divide by remaining Clans that's an absurdly tiny military. Clans can cheat a bit with numbers as technician castes can act as auxiliary crew for Dropships, Warships etc but still that still doesn't make up the severe manpower disadvantage. I would triple the Jade Falcon numbers above to count for things like reserves but factor in that those numbers above also account for Garrison units pressed into the frontline role, Clans really were going all in at Tukayyid.

forgive me my ignorance, i'm not a giant loremaster for battletech (yet,) but are not clan mechs supposed to be better than 1:1 equals for IS mechs? for example the timberwolf greatly outclasses both catapults and marauders? possibly bringing firepower almost equal to a catapult AND a marauder in a single mech in the same chassis weight class.

doesent this become even more obvious when you compare IIc variants to IS chassis?

[Bovril Brigadier]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Thundercracker:

forgive me my ignorance, i'm not a giant loremaster for battletech (yet,) but are not clan mechs supposed to be better than 1:1 equals for IS mechs? for example the timberwolf greatly outclasses both catapults and marauders? possibly bringing firepower almost equal to a catapult AND a marauder in a single mech in the same chassis weight class.

doesent this become even more obvious when you compare IIc variants to IS chassis?

Clan Tech is better than IS 1:1, the weight savings and firepower advantages alone are impossible to ignore. That isn't to say the Mad Kitty is going to have an easy fight, even during the Invasion. If you put a Mad Kitty against a CPLT-C1 or MAD-3R they will walk all over them true, but against a CPLT-K3, MAD-5D or the slightly later MAD-5S they won't have an easy time. The Mad Kitty will still come out on top but its likely to lose something important doing so which typically translates to the next opponent will easily finish it off. Not a good trade in what is essentially a numbers game. Keep in mind Clanners don't have as many Clan Mechs to fall back on as you'd think and for the most part have to ship replacement parts from the homeworlds at this stage.

When it comes to countering the Clans there are two great equalisers the IS does have at its disposal. The LBX-10 and Gauss Rifle, both of which have identical stats to their Clan equivalents in terms of firepower and range, they're just heavier and bulkier. By late 3050's IS are starting to field Mechs that boat these weapons and the Mad Kitty isn't facing against a Marauder or Catapult, it's having to contend with designs like the Pillager, Devastator and Thunder Hawk which are all more than capable of giving it a significant emotional event. Hell the Nightstar in MW5 was literally added to tabletop to give something that the IS can use to make Clanners cry.

Sticking with the late 3050's that's when things really fall apart for the Clans as the IS kicks their economies into overdrive. A Kit Fox A for example is a nasty little brute but when a Hollander can cripple if not kill you in a single shot and the can be brought in by the Company load without needing all the fancy high tech and investment of your shinny Omni then really becomes a no brainer where it should be going. Another interesting aspect is of Random Assignment Tables for the Clans. Their Second Line is mostly comprised of SLDF 2750 Regular Mechs, un-upgraded. This means if the IS invade and go up against a Clan Second Line the IS are generally fielding a lot better Mechs than what the Clans have in 3050's.

There are other quirks that could go on about like the dire state that is Clan Aerospace and fact Clan Mechs are godawful for extended operations but will leave it there.

[M3chaMike]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Crimzin:

Diposting pertama kali oleh M3chaMike:

I'm cautiously optimistic. Emphasis on 'cautiously'.

I can't tell if Piranha Games is a group of competent developers that are half-assing Battletech/Mechwarrior games while giving just enough to keep milking the community, or if they actually care about the setting and just don't have the skill or planning to properly develop their games.

Cause considering the state that Mechwarrior Online and Mechwarrior 5 are still in, it's either one or the other. Or maybe a combination of both.

But, I mean, I grew up on Mechwarrior 2, so they're probably getting my money either way.

- Also, to the OP:
Mechwarrior 5: Clans is it's own game. The reason why both these games are named Mechwarrior 5 is because of a Mechwarrior tradition. Most Mechwarrior games has a version that is story-focused, and mostly linear, and a counterpart version that is very light on story yet has a more expansive sandbox.

Mechwarrior 5: Mercenaries is mostly about the sandbox, with very little story. Mechwarrior 5: Clans is going to be very linear with scripted missions. It's possible that they may port some of the options from the original Mechwarrior 5: Mercenaries to their new game, but that hasn't been even hinted at yet by the developers.

Piranha is a corporation like most game studios, owned by a group called Enad global 7, Piranha is no where near the biggest in this group but it was nice to see they are consistent in making cash, year on year a few million, even while expanding by about 25% to get MW5 : Clans out the door no doubt but still, they are growing.

Some board members, large share holders of the group are pension funds, which really like the slow but steady increase that piranha games bring to the table.

So they are here to stay no doubt, and no doubt they have some pretty hardcore battletech fans on the team, along with lore gurus etc but they have to work to a dead line, sure mods come out and show what could have been possible but modders don't work to dead lines or have a giant parent company breathing down there neck.

Look, I know how development works and the issues that can arise from it. I understand that a modder without having to worry about time spent and quality control will always make more interesting content than the developer who has to worry about the bigger picture. I get that things need to be cut or moved on from.

But there are seriously unprofessional levels of quality when it comes to MW5. Most notably the HUD looking worse than most asset flip games at the time. And also the mixed bag that is the sound design. Not to mention, the pretty abyssal technical performance. The absolute atrocity that is the AI. The terrible terrain generation that can make missions literally unable to complete. And the uninspired mission design.

Is the game fun despite these issues? Sure. But I'm not comparing the issues that MW5 has with the work of modders. I'm comparing MW5 to it's competitors.

[Samuel Mumm]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Curhaj:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Hykril Tynyx:

Wtf are you talking about? The SEPARATE game about Clans has been announced like several months ago.

MechWarrior 5: Clans
just google it

thats not a dlc thats a seperate game buddy

if you dont believe me on the website www.mw5clans.com stand "MECHWARRIOR 5: CLANS is a new standalone game made in Unreal Engine 5 that delivers a story-driven campaign with over 90 minutes of cinematics."

so if they say themselfs that mechwarrior 5 clans is a seperate game and not a dlc you can believe it

[George W. Kush]

unreal 5 is just gonna be as buggy/not optimized like unreal 4. they should of just made it a dlc for this game instead of standalone

[Cursed Hawkins]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Narthan Dume:

unreal 5 is just gonna be as buggy/not optimized like unreal 4. they should of just made it a dlc for this game instead of standalone

In order to do the invasion proper justice, a DLC wouldn't have cut it, seriously we're talking about a major event in the lore compared to the Fourth Succession War.

[Wayz]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Cursed Hawkins:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Narthan Dume:

unreal 5 is just gonna be as buggy/not optimized like unreal 4. they should of just made it a dlc for this game instead of standalone

In order to do the invasion proper justice, a DLC wouldn't have cut it, seriously we're talking about a major event in the lore compared to the Fourth Succession War.

This is mw5 we are talking about lol, all major events boil down to a missions chain, a mech and a few career refinements.
Even with just the 12 mechs they made for clans complete with the animations would have been better value for money than the usual dlc format for mw5.
And even then we would just be paying for the animations as all the new mechs in clans have alrerdy been made in mW5 by modders cannibalising mech parts and borrowing existing animations to make them work.

[Princess_Daystar]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Wayz:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Cursed Hawkins:

In order to do the invasion proper justice, a DLC wouldn't have cut it, seriously we're talking about a major event in the lore compared to the Fourth Succession War.

This is mw5 we are talking about lol, all major events boil down to a missions chain, a mech and a few career refinements.
Even with just the 12 mechs they made for clans complete with the animations would have been better value for money than the usual dlc format for mw5.
And even then we would just be paying for the animations as all the new mechs in clans have alrerdy been made in mW5 by modders cannibalising mech parts and borrowing existing animations to make them work.

just a note its not even cannibalizing mech parts - we just ported the MWO mechs into MW5.

but otherwise yea you are correct

[Mochan]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Explore:

BTW what's the reason the Clans aren't liked? I've just been talking in another thread about how terrible all the great houses of the inner sphere are, so if they come and kick their asses, that's can't be all that bad, right? Or are they somehow even worse?

I know Pete doesn't like them for tabletop reasons. I started TT with clans, so to me it just felt normal.

Clans are extremely divisive because of their balance problems. As the OP pointed out, clan haters do not like them because of how they basically break the game and setting.

Clan Tech is for some reason twice as powerful as inner sphere tech and completely outclasses everything the inner sphere civilization has managed. The reasoning for this is that Clan scientists were able to focus on improving their Starleague tech during their exile into deep space, whereas Inner Sphere people were fighting amongst each so hard they coudln't do any research (which is bollocks because the clans were also fighting non-stop with each other). But that's a story reason to dislike them.

A lot of oldschool Battletech fans dislike clans because the OP weaponry trivializes Innersphere weaponry, making the game completely lopsided. Worse, Clan ER PPC, Large Pulse Lasers and Gauss Rifles could one-shot you from across the map and that's all she wrote. And that applies both to Inner Sphere mechs and clan mechs. This may be fine in a singleplayer videogame but on tabletop this was an especially horrible game design mechanic that turned the awesome tactical wargaming of Battletech into a dumb poke sniper war.

I didn't have a big issue playing clans in Mechwarrior 2 because I was just stomping on AI mechs, but if you do this i a live game with real people it's as dumb as an overtweaked sniper in Ghost Recon.

[Hykril Tynyx]

What is your problem, people? This thread was several months old... The OP and some of the earlier posters most likely don't even care about the discussion anymore.