Why the Longbow needs 8 missile slots

[Clever Name]

I was just doing some experimenting with LRM boats, and we do really need a new 'fast' (64 KPH) assault LRM boat.

In an Archer test (this and all the following of the same mission), I took 276 damage and nearly lost a side torso. In the Crusader, I took 304 damage and lost an arm, with structure damage to the other arm and a leg. In the BattleMaster-1S, which I tested as a pure LRM boat with TAG, I took almost as much damage without having any structure loss.

So, there is a need for a fast assault that can LRM boat (or possibly SRM boat). Something with better slots than the BattleMaster, but with the same durability.

The Longbow-0W is going to need 8 missile slots for a very simple reason. After maxing armor, we have enough free weight to either give it 2 LRM20-ST+Artemis (those won't be worth much without Artemis) and no secondary weaponry, or, we can give it 8 LRM-5-STs (that won't need Artemis as LRM5s are inherently accurate), 4 medium lasers, and a couple of extra sinks.

For an SRM boat, we could give it 8 SRM4-STs (SRM6 spread is awful without Artemis, so boating SRM4s is preferable) with adequate ammo and extra sinks. Or, 8 SRM2s with Artemis for extreme precision.

It's the difference between being versatile and not. 4 slots won't cut it. 6 slots won't cut it.

[Oddball]

Publicado originalmente por Hykril Tynyx:

Publicado originalmente por KellyR:

What I'd love personally, would be a "Mount & Blade" style campaign where you start with just a mech and a dream and work your way up to as big a mercenary company as you like, eventually expanding to multiple lances, owning your own jumpships, etc. Ultimately even say "You know, I have a whole fleet and an army, so I'm declaring this piece of space just belongs to me now." if you like. All the while actually affecting the balance of power through your actions, instead of just doing jobs against a backdrop of fixed lore history that will never change.

Of course, just like in M&B you'd also have the option of joining an existing faction, perhaps becoming a vassal lord or regional governor or whatever that faction's equivalent is.

Thousand times this! Preserve the basic ongoing conflict zones and preserve the Clan Invasion as a scheduled event (maybe Rasalhague revolt too), but randomise the heck out of all the outcomes: victories and defeats, alliances, territory gains, etc. Totally out of canon, but with great replayability and the ability to establish your very own house by conquest - adding an element of strategy (putting mech lances in your garrisons, establishing trade, some local economy).

Would be so cool, but... needs a lot of investment.

This has always been my contention about the MW games, but particularly MW4 is that you're sold to play as a mercenary company, but they boxed you into only every aspiring to have a lance and a leopard dropship (which isn't a deep space ship, just suppose to be a shuttle of sorts from a larger capital ship to the surface). I too always thought the game lineage would have been better to control more, acquire larger ships, set a home planet as a base of operations (which would then more realistically serve as your long term "cold" storage lol... and not flat packed stored in some pocket dimension bag-of-holding door inside the ship somewhere), which would then make better sense to having your stored mechs take time to be amazon-sent to you across space whenever you wanted to swap out mechs. And also, random missions to defend your base when other anti-you factions/mercenaries/houses decide to try to take you out (yes, a defend your own home base mission!), where you can build and layout your base design and defenses etc like you want....

But no, we just get this and a bunch of mech variant and equipment glamour. Not actual substance.

(There's so much more to do in the battletech universe, but we're all suppose to be content which just shooting stuff as a mech. A huge miss on the potential of the game...)

[KellyR]

Publicado originalmente por Hykril Tynyx:

Publicado originalmente por KellyR:

What I'd love personally, would be a "Mount & Blade" style campaign where you start with just a mech and a dream and work your way up to as big a mercenary company as you like, eventually expanding to multiple lances, owning your own jumpships, etc. Ultimately even say "You know, I have a whole fleet and an army, so I'm declaring this piece of space just belongs to me now." if you like. All the while actually affecting the balance of power through your actions, instead of just doing jobs against a backdrop of fixed lore history that will never change.

Of course, just like in M&B you'd also have the option of joining an existing faction, perhaps becoming a vassal lord or regional governor or whatever that faction's equivalent is.

Thousand times this! Preserve the basic ongoing conflict zones and preserve the Clan Invasion as a scheduled event (maybe Rasalhague revolt too), but randomise the heck out of all the outcomes: victories and defeats, alliances, territory gains, etc. Totally out of canon, but with great replayability and the ability to establish your very own house by conquest - adding an element of strategy (putting mech lances in your garrisons, establishing trade, some local economy).

Would be so cool, but... needs a lot of investment.

Yup. Randomize, and also let you potentially change them. If you go hard enough, or get big enough, fast enough, you as the player and your potentially quite large war force may turn the tide and change the outcome. See the House you give your loyalty to rise, or found your own new state and see if you can survive, that kind of thing.

I know it won't actually happen for MW6 because people like story based games too much, but I prefer games like M&B with no "rails" where the "story" is just kind of something I as the player write along the way, so I can dream, I guess.

[Oddball]

Publicado originalmente por KellyR:

Publicado originalmente por Hykril Tynyx:

Thousand times this! Preserve the basic ongoing conflict zones and preserve the Clan Invasion as a scheduled event (maybe Rasalhague revolt too), but randomise the heck out of all the outcomes: victories and defeats, alliances, territory gains, etc. Totally out of canon, but with great replayability and the ability to establish your very own house by conquest - adding an element of strategy (putting mech lances in your garrisons, establishing trade, some local economy).

Would be so cool, but... needs a lot of investment.

.... I know it won't actually happen for MW6 because people like story based games too much, but I prefer games like M&B with no "rails" where the "story" is just kind of something I as the player write along the way, so I can dream, I guess.

Ditto with your first part, but I think developers woefully under estimate the level of involvement players wish to see in MW games... there should be better development of strategic level game play where aspects that you pointed out would come to bear. I'd much rather play an open-ended style (akin to Total War crossed with MechCommander) 3rd person company-division-army level control and wrestling for control over the universe against the other houses and clans etc... than endure yet another 1st person single mech shooter with the same rags-to-riches back story. That's been done too many times already...

[Clever Name]

Publicado originalmente por Cursed Hawkins:

And if you want to ignore the fact that the Inner Sphere just physically wouldn't be capable of producing the kind of mech you want out of the Longbow and tried using the Catapult as your escape goat example.

This makes absolutely no sense. Physically capable?

The Longbow has no lower arm actuators or hands. This means it has 10 open crit slots in each arm. An LRM20 takes up 5 slots. You could fit two LRM20s in a Longbow arm. I don't care if the game writers never bothered to put anything more than one LRM20 in each arm, prior to ~3060. That decision has nothing to do with lore or rules. From outward appearances alone, it looks absurd to have such massive arms with so little armament in them.

Any pre-Lostech Longbow could fit either two LRM20s in each arm, or three LRM15s, or five LRM10s. Or five SRM6. Obviously this isn't taking weight into account, but simply free space.

Going by weight, a Longbow-OW could mount a total of six SRM6s plus 6 tons of ammo, plus 16 single sinks, plus 12.5 tons of armor. That's a perfectly viable SRM boat. Alternatively it could do 8 SRM4s with one ton ammo each, the rest remaining the same.

With LRMs, as many as ten LRM5s could be mounted, with 5 tons of ammo in total, for 12 complete salvos. 15 sinks and 12.5 tons of armor.

The whole point to using more missile slots than 4 large, is to either take advantage of the weight savings from LRM5s (four LRM5s = 2 tons saved from an LRM20), or allow more flexibility to an SRM boat. Or dual boat them.

All of that is possible without Lostech. All of it is possible under normal construction rules.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Publicado originalmente por Clever Name:

Any pre-Lostech Longbow could fit either two LRM20s in each arm, or three LRM15s, or five LRM10s. Or five SRM6. Obviously this isn't taking weight into account, but simply free space.

Clearly not if the Inner Sphere were designing them like how they are because each of the loadouts listed for the Longbow even on Sarna only list TWO LRM20s going to the arms.
Anything else that changes from how the loadouts represented in the game are likely due to balancing reasons such as the 8C's rear firing Medium lasers being a standard practice for future variants.
Edit: oh and just for the record, an SRM boat for a Catapult can be pulled off due to them having the mobility options of their jump jets, something the Longbow doesn't have access too, not until the Republic of the Sphere actually designs a variant with them which is post-jihad on the timeline.

[Thundercracker]

Publicado originalmente por Cursed Hawkins:

Edit: oh and just for the record, an SRM boat for a Catapult can be pulled off due to them having the mobility options of their jump jets, something the Longbow doesn't have access too, not until the Republic of the Sphere actually designs a variant with them which is post-jihad on the timeline.

there's the counter argument that a catapult's "arms" are much bigger targets than a longbow's. also the argument that jumpjets on a heavy mech rarely seem to pay for their weight.

while it's not 100% the same game, i've been having a hell of a time trying to solve the riddle of the grasshopper in MWO. a fast, mobile, heavy mech just doesent seem to ever work, it always seems more advantageous to take a light or medium for speed and mobility.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Publicado originalmente por Thundercracker:

while it's not 100% the same game, i've been having a hell of a time trying to solve the riddle of the grasshopper in MWO. a fast, mobile, heavy mech just doesent seem to ever work, it always seems more advantageous to take a light or medium for speed and mobility.

Take one look at the Charger, it'll likely be the same design idea for the Grasshopper for a scout/heavy mech same with the Charger's supposed to be a scout/assault mech.

[Thundercracker]

Publicado originalmente por Cursed Hawkins:

Publicado originalmente por Thundercracker:

while it's not 100% the same game, i've been having a hell of a time trying to solve the riddle of the grasshopper in MWO. a fast, mobile, heavy mech just doesent seem to ever work, it always seems more advantageous to take a light or medium for speed and mobility.

Take one look at the Charger, it'll likely be the same design idea for the Grasshopper for a scout/heavy mech same with the Charger's supposed to be a scout/assault mech.

heh, i've always considered the charger to be a trash mech. it's built to be a fast assault, but it just doesent have the firepower or armor to back the speed up.

in both weight classes, i'd rather have a marauder, if i'm trying to be more mobile.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Publicado originalmente por Thundercracker:

there's the counter argument that a catapult's "arms" are much bigger targets than a longbow's. also the argument that jumpjets on a heavy mech rarely seem to pay for their weight.

Having SOMETHING for mobility options is better than having NOTHING for mobility options since an SRM boat sacrifices range and all that.

[Thundercracker]

Publicado originalmente por Cursed Hawkins:

Having SOMETHING for mobility options is better than having NOTHING for mobility options since an SRM boat sacrifices range and all that.

you're not wrong, it just feels like a poor solution when there are mechs out there designed to do the job better. i typically find that if i want to have a mech loaded up with SRMs, the best performing ones are kind of the ones who come loaded with them stock. they're the ones with the armor and the hitboxes that survive the best when actually deploying their SRMs.

i mean, there's even better LRM boats that are convertible to SRMs than the catapult. it's been my experience that an archer is much more suited to direct-fire fighting than any catapult variant.

more to the subject at hand, though, what's the main issue here is the basic design of the longbow. the longbow, much like the rifleman, is a specialist mech even in its origin material. the difference there was that it did not have another land-based mech to compete with in its specialty, as it does here in BT/ MW. i can think of 3 other heavy LRM specialist chassis right off the top of my head, and they each have 4-5 variants.

i honestly dont know what they can do to make the longbow appealing without breaking what they've already established. i want one simply to round out my destroid collection.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Publicado originalmente por Thundercracker:

more to the subject at hand, though, what's the main issue here is the basic design of the longbow. the longbow, much like the rifleman, is a specialist mech even in its origin material. the difference there was that it did not have another land-based mech to compete with in its specialty, as it does here in BT/ MW. i can think of 3 other heavy LRM specialist chassis right off the top of my head, and they each have 4-5 variants.

It's Clever just wanting more options when the loadouts we got are based on the Longbow's primary design purpose for its role on the battlefield and likely also designed on the information the loadouts provided from Sarna with some development adjustments like in the case of the 8C's rear facing two medium lasers likely having them towards the front of the mech itself like the other two medium lasers.

[Clever Name]

Publicado originalmente por Cursed Hawkins:

Publicado originalmente por Clever Name:

Any pre-Lostech Longbow could fit either two LRM20s in each arm, or three LRM15s, or five LRM10s. Or five SRM6. Obviously this isn't taking weight into account, but simply free space.

Clearly not if the Inner Sphere were designing them like how they are because each of the loadouts listed for the Longbow even on Sarna only list TWO LRM20s going to the arms.

Okay, this tells me you know nothing of the decades-old and still largely unchanged pen and paper construction rules.

Fun fact: you can fit five LRM5s in the same critical space that a single LRM20 fills. This has nothing to do with Lostech or anything lore related. These are the cold, hard rules, as they've always existed.

Not going to waste any more of my time explaining anything else.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Publicado originalmente por Clever Name:

Publicado originalmente por Cursed Hawkins:

Clearly not if the Inner Sphere were designing them like how they are because each of the loadouts listed for the Longbow even on Sarna only list TWO LRM20s going to the arms.

Okay, this tells me you know nothing of the decades-old and still largely unchanged pen and paper construction rules.

Fun fact: you can fit five LRM5s in the same critical space that a single LRM20 fills. This has nothing to do with Lostech or anything lore related. These are the cold, hard rules, as they've always existed.

Not going to waste any more of my time explaining anything else.

And this is the information the dev team at PGI likely used when designing the Longbows and their loadouts in-game!
"LGB-0W
The standard Star League era model, compared to the 7Q the 0W was fitted with a larger Strand 340 engine and boasted a higher top speed of 64 km/h, allowing it to keep up with most heavy 'Mechs. The price of this speed however was five tons less armor, nine fewer heat sinks and a single ChisComp 32 small laser mounted in the head as its sole backup weapon for its two LRM-20 and LRM-5 launchers, making the 0W a risky but powerful fire support 'Mech."

"LGB-0W2
This subvariant of the LGB-0W removes the Small Laser and one ton of LRM-5 ammo. These changes allow 1.5 tons of much needed armor to be added, mostly to the arms and legs, but each torso also benefits slightly."

"LGB-7Q
Armament
2x LRM-20
2x LRM-5
2x Medium Laser"

"LGB-8C
Similar in all aspects to the LGB-7Q, this variant sacrifices two heatsinks to mount two rear firing Medium Lasers. These rear firing lasers would be a common inclusion most Longbow variants made since its introduction."
Where do you think those TWO mentioned LRM-20s are going? That means ONE PER ARM, your book isn't what dev team used to design their loadouts with.

[Clever Name]

Publicado originalmente por Cursed Hawkins:

Where do you think those TWO mentioned LRM-20s are going? That means ONE PER ARM, your book isn't what dev team used to design their loadouts with.

This would all be much simpler if you'd just admit that you don't know how mechs are officially constructed by all the rules that have ever existed.

Also, stop quoting Sarna. That means nothing here; they don't even show us complete mech loadouts. If you want to see how mechs are actually fitted, do a search online for 'battletech record sheets.'

This is how they've always been built, and this is what all mechs (including those in MW5 and MWO) are directly based upon.

[Cursed Hawkins]

Publicado originalmente por Clever Name:

Also, stop quoting Sarna. That means nothing here; they don't even show us complete mech loadouts. If you want to see how mechs are actually fitted, do a search online for 'battletech record sheets.'

Yet Sarna's the first result of anything related to Battletech when looking up the mechs and the loadouts for the mechs reflect the loadouts seen in the game itself from Sarna! You want the kind of customization that you want then YAML is your goto option Clever but the game even as a PvE one requires a decree of balancing so there's only so many variants and so many options of one mech chassis the dev team can do, trying to make EVERY single mech variant possible just isn't a feasible or even reasonable thing to do because you would be looking at potential 1000s of any given chassis!