Doom Eternal vs. Doom 2016 Thoughts

[Professor Toothy]

Woke up to 63 more comments. Nope. Original post was deleted, no thank you.

[Sar]

Eternal AI still has ranged enemies who hang back, like Arachnotrons, flankers like Whiplashes and even completely unique support AIs like Carcasses. The one big reason imps are so notable in 2016 is because they can two-shot you in early game.

[Professor Toothy]

Originally posted by Sar:

Eternal AI still has ranged enemies who hang back, like Arachnotrons, flankers like Whiplashes and even completely unique support AIs like Carcasses. The one big reason imps are so notable in 2016 is because they can two-shot you in early game.

I suppose they could, but they are much more dynamic and move about the world in a more believable way. They feel almost spider-monkey like, which you don't really see in Eternal.

[mw00]

Doom Eternal would be a much better game if they got rid MOBA-like cooldowns on abilities. Make it more of a classic resource management, where you have to pick up items instead of having like 20 different cooldowns that you have to keep in back of your head.

[Kyller92 AKA Cinos]

Oh oh... Here we go again

[Sar]

Originally posted by Professor Toothy:

Originally posted by Sar:

Eternal AI still has ranged enemies who hang back, like Arachnotrons, flankers like Whiplashes and even completely unique support AIs like Carcasses. The one big reason imps are so notable in 2016 is because they can two-shot you in early game.

I suppose they could, but they are much more dynamic and move about the world in a more believable way. They feel almost spider-monkey like, which you don't really see in Eternal.

I really don't see much difference except for the fact that I need to pay much less attention to imps in DE.

[gpolg]

doom eternal is a more hardcore game for sure while 2016 is more typical and accessible fps in mechanics. and they have different strengths and play very differently, so its really a matter of taste. comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges

2016 had the better atmosphere for sure, but not better level design, even though it was very good too.

[mistahbungle]

DE craps on 2016 in every way. Was honestly over the whole Mars thing by the time Doom 3 rolled around...

[Lord Bennington]

I hated Doom Eternal when I played it on release, and paid £50 for it. It's not a Doom game as far as I'm concerned.

But I bought it recently with DLC for £15, approached it as it's own thing, and I've come to the conclusion that it's the Single Player Quake 3 campaign we never got.

Great Doom game - No
Great game - Yes

I updated my reactionary review stating this fact, and I get why it's a divisive game.

[Mortimer Reed]

Originally posted by Professor Toothy:

Intro

I think the community's response to Eternal was inarticulate and rushed.
Get off your high horse.


Presentation: Doom 2016
It is abundantly clear that these games are completely distinct in tone. However, I personally prefer what Doom 2016 does with its presentation. From the boot to the loading screen, Doom 2016 oozes atmosphere. There's an ominous soundtrack, bloody visuals, and very minimalist UI. Doom Eternal feels almost more like a live-service game from bootup, with cluttered visuals, underplayed menu music and shop advertisements. Doom Eternal definitely feels like a cartoon, and some of the enemy designs are odd. Most interesting imo is the revenant, who looks really bland compared to Doom 2016's incarnation. There is just so much atmosphere in Doom 2016's presentation that is lost with Eternal. I'm sure that's intentional, but it's still sorely missed by me.

I would agree on a certain degree on this. I do like the main menu more on 2016 (well, the original main menu before they updated it to showcase shop advertisements). However, I do like that in the main menu you can change the customize the character and the background shown. With regards to the enemies, I prefer a lot of the designs in Eternal more than 2016. The revenant is bland? He looks metal as ♥♥♥♥! Plus, the visuals in Eternal are more vibrant to immediately distinguish enemies from the background. Sometimes, I can't see some monsters in 2016 especially indoors.

Story: Doom 2016
Once again, Doom 2016 really takes the cake for me here. While there are some annoying unskippable parts, the story serves the ambiance and mystery of the experience. It's sad to see so much of it was retconned in Eternal, but I'm sure it's all in service of the locations they wanted to explore in Eternal. I'm not much of a "lore" fan, but I enjoyed reading the cheesy, charmingly-written codecs in 2016 far more than the bland, self-serious ones in Eternal. Also, the move to a third-person camera in Eternal really solidifies the "gamey" feel of sequel when compared to the immersion of 2016's Doom.

The story in 2016 also takes itself seriously. Also, I prefer that the cinematics are a mix of first-person and third-person. I just wished they put more third-person cinematics showing Doomguy fighting demons, like the one in TAG2 before the last hard arena fight.

Enemy AI: Doom 2016
This one surprised me the most, so I thought I'd make it a separate category. Upon replaying both games on nightmare, I was far more impressed by the AI work in Doom 2016. For example, Imps hang back and throw fireballs from walls, or group up and rush, or flank when surrounded by other mobs. Also noteworthy are the spawners, who bait you into ares with more enemy density. It seems like every enemy in Eternal is simply programmed to rush down the player, which may be a consequence of having so many on the screen at once. They don't seem to interact with their environment at the same level of quality as Doom 2016. I noticed many more enemies becoming stuck in geometry, freezing up, or simply staring at walls in Eternal.

I would say the enemies in Eternal are just as smart, if not more, as 2016. Also, look at the carcass. I really love how he protects other demons with the energy shield or just blocks your view with it. But I will agree that the AI in Eternal are more prone to getting stuck in the environment.

I also think that the reason ID removed the ability of the imps to climb and hang on walls while shooting fireballs is that this just makes them an easy target. They are much more harder to fight if they move alot.

====

Level Design: Doom 2016
While I think the level variety is significantly broader in Eternal, I feel the game took a giant step towards linearity. One thing I said to myself upon first playing Doom 2016 is that it felt like a combination of OG doom and Metroid: Prime. The required exploration in 2016 is far greater than in Eternal, and that does wonders to break up encounters and improve atmosphere. You feel like you're traveling through an actual, lived-in environment in 2016's Doom.

I like the level design in Eternal more because of the variety of the locations. And sometimes, the linearity is better to keep the action going. But I do like if the ones with branching paths.

====

Platforming: Doom 2016
This one is a side-bar from level design. While it is true that both games have "platforming", it is hard to argue that either is exactly "good". I'm a huge platformer fan, and it is obvious that this kind of gameplay in FPS titles is kinda simple. However, I think Doom 2016 did it more intelligently than Eternal. As seen in levels like Argent Tower in 2016, the combat, level traversal and platforming are all part of the same experience. You explore, fight demons, and platform all at once, which feels like a more unified experience. In Eternal, platforming is very segmented. This is most painful in the "Heaven" map, which is what I believe to be the game's weakest level. When you're platforming in Eternal, you're just platforming. When you're swimming, you're just swimming. It's the focus, and it's really not strong enough to carry interest. Even as a distraction, it's weak. This is very strange to me, because I think Doom Eternal's combat is strong enough that you don't even need these weird interruptions.

Yeah, I wish the platforming sections in Eternal also included some combat. But I think a lot more people will be pissed with the platforming if they also have to shoot. I mean, a lot of them still find the platforming sections too hard to navigate for some reason

Lasting Appeal: Doom 2016
While Eternal has much for hardcore fans to enjoy with the newly released horde mode, I feel like Doom 2016's multiplayer offerings were much stronger. Snapmap alone was a wonderful bit of fun, and I still find myself playing community maps from time to time. This section isn't super important, but it's certainly a nice touch.

I don't play multiplayer, so I can't comment on this. In Snapmap, I didn't much enjoyed the single-player custom maps. However, Doom Eternal has a more lasting appeal for me because of the addictive combat. I really wish we can get more Master Levels.

Overall: Doom Eternal.
However, I still love Doom 2016.

[Sar]

I like platforming in Eternal way more because you have more traversal options (monkey bars, clickable walls, dashes and dash refills, meathook points), and, more importantly, it doesn’t kill you.

[Mortimer Reed]

Originally posted by Sar:

I like platforming in Eternal way more because you have more traversal options (monkey bars, clickable walls, dashes and dash refills, meathook points), and, more importantly, it doesn’t kill you.

Yeah this is a good point. I really love using monkey bars to traverse and keeping yourself airborne while fighting.

[Jagdtiger]

Also the artstyle goes to 2016 imo. The cartoonish demonic rocket launcher vs the cool military green tube? The magic soft sounding cannon vs the hand held M2 Browning? The weird, overcomplicated sawn off hook thing vs a sleek, mean double barrel? Its just not even close in terms of weapon design, which is a very important part to me

[Sar]

I think 2016 is fine but it has some incredibly questionable art design choices. The possessed soldier/sergeant models are especially bad, they just look like genetic aliens/mutants/zombies.

[[strem]EasyasBreathing]

I have also struggled with this and written about it but we have one fundamental disagreement so I'm going to explain it and am excited to hear your thoughts! This was a very thoughtful post so I am hoping this turns out to be a quality reply.

TL;DR: The combat is better in 2016 and it is the better game because of it. Games with well designed and balanced free-form movement will always have superior combat vs games with a dash.

First, let me explain why I feel like my opinion is valid: Most recently I beat Doom 2016 on a Nightmare pistol only run, but I have also completed Doom Eternal + DLC on Nightmare, and all achievements (except UN) on Nightmare with no in-game cheats enabled, and Arena on Nightmare. I haven't done UN yet as I only have ~170 hours in Eternal and like 70 or so in 2016.

Where I disagree with you is the combat. I would argue that Doom 2016 is better in this arena. You are not wrong however that DE's mechanics are addicting, just that they are superior in my opinion. The reason for this is that I believe the ultimate expression of skill and the height of fun in a shooter is being able to succeed by freely expressing yourself. Games that don't restrict movement options will always be superior in this arena IMO.

How can I possibly say that DE restricts movement? Well, it doesn't do this directly. What it does do is rather than balancing the enemy movement with the player's, they have created an 'oh ♥♥♥♥' button in the form of dash that is the only way to avoid many attacks. Then they sped up the enemies and projectiles to force you to use the dash. This reduces the level of player input and thought required to be successful, and provides an escape from punishment for bad decisions. On the flip-side, it also makes dodging attacks easier for controller players, so could have been a conscious design choice for that reason.

In Doom 2016 you are required to have good positioning to succeed, and the choices you make in how you move and dodge feel so much more visceral than double-dashing away from enemies every second the cooldown expires. In Doom 2016 every inch of where you decide to go is on you, and it matters. You can dodge every single projectile in the game if you are good enough. Because the player moves at a constant speed in 2016 and the enemies can't outrun you so easily, this makes Doom Eternal feel way more chaotic and frantic, but it's actually dumbed down a little bit by the dash mechanic and less precise enemy and projectile design.

The above combined with the superior enemy AI makes 2016 the better game overall and for combat in my opinion. The way that Imps in 2016 synergize with the other enemies to become the deadliest in the game is a great example of exceptional design, and that kind of mechanic just doesn't exist in Eternal to that level of depth.

A couple of side notes: I am aware that m+kb has a huge advantage in the movement style of 2016 vs eternal, and I can appreciate that. I still think free-form, skilled movement should be the gold standard, especially when judging competitive play.

[Professor Toothy]

Originally posted by poozylive:

I have also struggled with this and written about it but we have one fundamental disagreement so I'm going to explain it and am excited to hear your thoughts! This was a very thoughtful post so I am hoping this turns out to be a quality reply.

TL;DR: The combat is better in 2016 and it is the better game because of it. Games with well designed and balanced free-form movement will always have superior combat vs games with a dash.

First, let me explain why I feel like my opinion is valid: Most recently I beat Doom 2016 on a Nightmare pistol only run, but I have also completed Doom Eternal + DLC on Nightmare, and all achievements (except UN) on Nightmare with no in-game cheats enabled, and Arena on Nightmare. I haven't done UN yet as I only have ~170 hours in Eternal and like 70 or so in 2016.

Where I disagree with you is the combat. I would argue that Doom 2016 is better in this arena. You are not wrong however that DE's mechanics are addicting, just that they are superior in my opinion. The reason for this is that I believe the ultimate expression of skill and the height of fun in a shooter is being able to succeed by freely expressing yourself. Games that don't restrict movement options will always be superior in this arena IMO.

How can I possibly say that DE restricts movement? Well, it doesn't do this directly. What it does do is rather than balancing the enemy movement with the player's, they have created an 'oh ♥♥♥♥' button in the form of dash that is the only way to avoid many attacks. Then they sped up the enemies and projectiles to force you to use the dash. This reduces the level of player input and thought required to be successful, and provides an escape from punishment for bad decisions. On the flip-side, it also makes dodging attacks easier for controller players, so could have been a conscious design choice for that reason.

In Doom 2016 you are required to have good positioning to succeed, and the choices you make in how you move and dodge feel so much more visceral than double-dashing away from enemies every second the cooldown expires. In Doom 2016 every inch of where you decide to go is on you, and it matters. You can dodge every single projectile in the game if you are good enough. Because the player moves at a constant speed in 2016 and the enemies can't outrun you so easily, this makes Doom Eternal feel way more chaotic and frantic, but it's actually dumbed down a little bit by the dash mechanic and less precise enemy and projectile design.

The above combined with the superior enemy AI makes 2016 the better game overall and for combat in my opinion. The way that Imps in 2016 synergize with the other enemies to become the deadliest in the game is a great example of exceptional design, and that kind of mechanic just doesn't exist in Eternal to that level of depth.

A couple of side notes: I am aware that m+kb has a huge advantage in the movement style of 2016 vs eternal, and I can appreciate that. I still think free-form, skilled movement should be the gold standard, especially when judging competitive play.

That's an interesting perspective. I enjoy Doom 2016's combat more simply because it's more focused on power fantasy and immersion. However, I feel like Eternal has a better system overall because of its options and tight mechanics. But I totlaly get where you're coming from.