My Defense for Saving Throw in Ultra-Nightmare

[Cyrus The Enlightened]

I realize that this is a controversial topic, but I figured that after four completed Ultra-Nightmare runs and before beginning my fifth and final run, I'd toss my own in the ring on this topic. I in no way began this conversation with the intent to start a fight, but rather to look at the situation and the game's design objectively in an attempt to justify the Saving Throw exploit as a valid method for completing Ultra-Nightmare. For those unaware, the Saving Throw Exploit is a method of completing Ultra-Nightmare by equipping the Saving Throw Rune which saves you from death only once, and closing the game upon the Rune's activation so it never resets and you can just resume from the previous Checkpoint when you restart the game. Many in the Doom Community consider this cheating and as such believe that if you beat Ultra-Nightmare this way, you didn't TRULY earn the rewards granted to you. I'd like to go through each argument I've heard against using Saving Throw and give my own Objective rebuttals.

A. "You're not playing the mode the way it's meant to be played" Maybe not, but it's a strategy in the game allowed to me by the developers who to this day, have yet to comment on this exploit to my knowledge. The game also still has the Checkpoint System from previous difficulties in Ultra-Nightmare. If the only valid way to complete Ultra-Nightmare IS to do it the One Go or Start Over way, then what is the actual point of the Checkpoints? wouldn't they essentially serve no purpose? The game has been patched multiple times since launch and it honestly seems like the Devs themselves don't care about the Exploit. If they DID, I can see two ways they can fix this exploit and make it no longer useful. For One, they could disable the Checkpoint system completely so even if I DID use the Exploit, I'd be dropped off at the beginning of the mission instead which would be much more punishing. The OTHER way that they could fix it is to simply disable the rune entirely. The Devs have disabled Runes in the past as in the Ancient Gods DLC, you can't even activate the Extra Life Rune on Ultra-Nightmare as it serves no Purpose.

B. "The Exploit takes away all the punishment of having to start all over and practically ruins the challenge." No. No it does NOT. Using Saving Throw doesn't eliminate the challenge at ALL. Sure, you can resume at the last Checkpoint you got when you restart the game, but I'd argue that Saving Throw is just as challenging and stressful for multiple reasons.

1. The Game only saves your progress UP TO the Last Checkpoint you reached, so if you collected anything, beat Slayer Gates, completed Secret Encounters or even completed mission challenges but didn't reach another checkpoint before reaching another Checkpoint? All of that Progress is gone since it boots you back to the last Checkpoint you got. ALL OF IT. That's right, That means you have to do it ALL OVER AGAIN.

2. Not Only can you only save your complete mission progress by saving and quitting to the main menu after beating each mission, but Ultra-Nightmare removes the Mission Select option completely. What's that? You say you beat a mission but missed a challenge, Mod-Bot, Secret Encounter, Slayer Gate, Album, Mastery Token, Toy, Cheat Code, Sentinel Crystal, Preator Suit Point Token or Codex Entry? Sorry. Too Bad, So Sad, cause you can't go back and get it after you already beat the mission so you still basically gotta do everything in one go.

3. Ultra-Nightmare helps you remember how truly stressful and cruelly punishing the Bosses of Doom Eternal can truly be. Ever since my first UN run on Xbox Series X, I've felt that even when considering the DLC, the Icon of Sin boss is the biggest Road Block Ultra-Nightmare has. Even after Run number 4, I still stand behind that sentiment because the Icon is fast, Gigantic, and ALWAYS summoning enemies. A Simple direct PUNCH from the Icon is practically enough to garuntee a reset if you're not careful. Even Now, defeating the Icon on Ultra-Nightmare is one of the most satisfying victories in gaming.

That's pretty much all of the arguments I've seen against Saving Throw so far. Most other arguments either amount to elitism or somehow root back to the two that I've already mentioned. I've beaten Ultra-Nightmare in Doom Eternal on four different platforms with the PS5 version being the last one I have left to do. I'll say it, and I'll do it loud and proud. So should you. In fact, if any of you reading this beat Ultra-Nightmare with Saving Throw, don't feel shame. Let me know with pride in the replies to this Discussion and I'll continue giving my Slayer's Helmet off to you til the sun sets. Same with those who did it without it. We're all in this together and we gained our victories on our own terms. We Ripped and Tore, and now it is done.

[-|Nur|-]

引用自 Cyrus The Enlightened：

closing the game upon the Rune's activation so it never resets and you can just resume from the previous Checkpoint when you restart the game.

The second I read that (I had not heard of this "tactic" before) I knew the method was 100% cheating. In fact, activating the in-game cheat codes sounds more "legit" than this method.

[-|Nur|-]

This is just as blatant cheating as getting the "One Shot" achievement in Alien Isolation by reloading a checkpoint the moment the alien grabs you but before the death animation finishes (which is when the game saves).

[Red]

Play how you like it, you payed for your copy,
not the random guys on the internet trying to tell you how you're supposed to play the game.

[f0lzen]

if you are about to die on UN run, just press escape, open the console and type disconnect, you will be transferred to the main menu and your ultra nightmare save file will be there

eZ pZ

[Cyrus The Enlightened]

引用自 b0ne：

if you are about to die on UN run, just press escape, open the console and type disconnect, you will be transferred to the main menu and your ultra nightmare save file will be there

eZ pZ

Wait, for real? No bluff? It's THAT easy?

[furbleburble]

引用自 Cyrus The Enlightened：

引用自 b0ne：

if you are about to die on UN run, just press escape, open the console and type disconnect, you will be transferred to the main menu and your ultra nightmare save file will be there

eZ pZ

Wait, for real? No bluff? It's THAT easy?

It's easy enough to test.

[Kyoki]

引用自 SeabourneSword：

Honestly I just assumed the checkpoints were just a protection in case the power went out when someone was doing a un run, but either way, they would've patched the exploit i'm sure if they really cared.

It is the reason - in-case it crashes. But some people just don't want to admit that they simply want the shiny skin with barely any effort.

[Smask]

LOL
You felt the need to justify your way of exploiting the game?
Exploits are cheating no matter how well argued they are.
Exploit is exploit.
Cheating is cheating.
Do not call a shotgun a rocket-launcher.

[MaddogDino]

An exploit is used to cheat the game, that's why it's called an exploit.
Argue it all you like but cheating is what it is.

[Cyrus The Enlightened]

引用自 Kyoki：

引用自 SeabourneSword：

Honestly I just assumed the checkpoints were just a protection in case the power went out when someone was doing a un run, but either way, they would've patched the exploit i'm sure if they really cared.

It is the reason - in-case it crashes. But some people just don't want to admit that they simply want the shiny skin with barely any effort.

What an utterly toxic way to look at it. "Barely Any Effort"? Excuse Me? So collecting practically every collectible in my Run, having to do everything I did I again because the Exploit only sends you back to the exact spot the Checkpoint puts you at, Potentially costing you hours upon hours of Progress, having to constantly switch strategies because you keep getting killed to the Slightest Error, on top of Potentially being stuck on certain bosses for HOURS? Yeah. Totally a lack of effort. I'm baffled I even tried. You sound like someone who plays Halo 2 on Legendary with only the Weakest weapons just so you can brag to your friends that you did it.

[Grampire]

引用自 Cyrus The Enlightened：

引用自 Kyoki：

It is the reason - in-case it crashes. But some people just don't want to admit that they simply want the shiny skin with barely any effort.

What an utterly toxic way to look at it. "Barely Any Effort"? Excuse Me? So collecting practically every collectible in my Run, having to do everything I did I again because the Exploit only sends you back to the exact spot the Checkpoint puts you at, Potentially costing you hours upon hours of Progress, having to constantly switch strategies because you keep getting killed to the Slightest Error, on top of Potentially being stuck on certain bosses for HOURS? Yeah. Totally a lack of effort. I'm baffled I even tried. You sound like someone who plays Halo 2 on Legendary with only the Weakest weapons just so you can brag to your friends that you did it.

The effort you just described is on-par with a normal nightmare run.

There is no parity with a non-exploit UN run - insinuating there is would be denial of the "hours and hours" of work someone puts in to mastering the game at that level. People 100% UN quite often - not something I've done but it is a goal.

"Barely any effort" may seem hyperbolic but using the exploit definitely allows players to complete the mode when they aren't ready for it.

[Cyrus The Enlightened]

引用自 Grampire：

引用自 Cyrus The Enlightened：

What an utterly toxic way to look at it. "Barely Any Effort"? Excuse Me? So collecting practically every collectible in my Run, having to do everything I did I again because the Exploit only sends you back to the exact spot the Checkpoint puts you at, Potentially costing you hours upon hours of Progress, having to constantly switch strategies because you keep getting killed to the Slightest Error, on top of Potentially being stuck on certain bosses for HOURS? Yeah. Totally a lack of effort. I'm baffled I even tried. You sound like someone who plays Halo 2 on Legendary with only the Weakest weapons just so you can brag to your friends that you did it.

The effort you just described is on-par with a normal nightmare run.

There is no parity with a non-exploit UN run - insinuating there is would be denial of the "hours and hours" of work someone puts in to mastering the game at that level. People 100% UN quite often - not something I've done but it is a goal.

"Barely any effort" may seem hyperbolic but using the exploit definitely allows players to complete the mode when they aren't ready for it.

"Hyperbolic" is putting it nicely. It's more like spitting in my face. I'm not TRYING to insinuate I'm on the same level of skill as someone who 100% Ultra-Nightmare Without Dying. That was never what this conversation was about. If some can do that, Congratulations, You've practically Mastered the game and I wish you fortune in your future. What it IS about is me and some other players out there who beat Ultra-Nightmare just like everyone else did, just with the Saving Throw Exploit which I don't feel is cheating since it's a mechanic the game allows me to have. I still beat it and am at the end of the Ultra-Nightmare road like everyone else. Does that mean I'm on the same level as those who did it without it? No. But I still did it. The only thing I'm guilty of at best is using a dishonorable approach. Nothing more, Nothing Less.

[Sar]

I genuinely don’t get it, though. You do understand every single gameplay mechanic on UN works exactly like in regular Nightmare, except for Extra Lives? Enemy damage, aggression etc.

[Grampire]

引用自 Cyrus The Enlightened：

引用自 Grampire：

The effort you just described is on-par with a normal nightmare run.

There is no parity with a non-exploit UN run - insinuating there is would be denial of the "hours and hours" of work someone puts in to mastering the game at that level. People 100% UN quite often - not something I've done but it is a goal.

"Barely any effort" may seem hyperbolic but using the exploit definitely allows players to complete the mode when they aren't ready for it.

"Hyperbolic" is putting it nicely. It's more like spitting in my face. I'm not TRYING to insinuate I'm on the same level of skill as someone who 100% Ultra-Nightmare Without Dying. That was never what this conversation was about. If some can do that, Congratulations, You've practically Mastered the game and I wish you fortune in your future. What it IS about is me and some other players out there who beat Ultra-Nightmare just like everyone else did, just with the Saving Throw Exploit which I don't feel is cheating since it's a mechanic the game allows me to have. I still beat it and am at the end of the Ultra-Nightmare road like everyone else. Does that mean I'm on the same level as those who did it without it? No. But I still did it. The only thing I'm guilty of at best is using a dishonorable approach. Nothing more, Nothing Less.

As outlined in post #2, you might decide you're at the end of the road and that's fine, but you haven't beaten UN "like everyone else."

I cleared UN at around the 200 hour mark - as you can see it wasn't the end of the road for me. The road ends when you decide it does, not when you clear UN - exploit or otherwise.

[Mortimer Reed]

Ultra-Nightmare is meant to be completed without dying. If you use the Saving Throw as intended (no exploit), it's ok since it's part of the game's mechanic.

Regarding why checkpoints exist in UN, I think the devs left it there as a safeguard for when your game crashes or there is a power outage during your play time. It would be really frustrating something out of your control ruins your UN run.

However, like some people said here, play UN with or without that exploit. It's all up to you. Personally, I was tempted several times using the ALT-F4 exploit during my UN runs, but I couldn't bring myself to do it since I wanted the feeling of accomplishing UN without using that.