Doom Eternal - Good Game, Bad Doom?

[DM Science]

I'm an old school gamer. Was around to play original Doom (and Wolfenstein before that). I generally try to be positive and try to separate my personal feelings about games, movies, music, etc from the work in and of itself.

I tried Doom Eternal for the second time recently. Doom 2016 was the most fun I had in a long time on a computer game with high intensity. I like most types of games. I started on Atari and Pong, so can appreciate the bounty of modern gaming. I usually enjoy depth and story, but occasionally, I want a game that I can jump and tear stuff up at 100 mph without thinking too much. It's like music. Sometimes I want Pink Floyd, with its complex arrangements and layered lyrics giving me pause to reflect on the human condition. Other times, I want Ministry- can't understand most of the lyrics, but it makes me feel like moving fast and breaking stuff.

Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow.

This is the problem with Doom Eternal, and why I have multiple completions of Doom 2016 and have given up on Doom Eternal twice now when I realized I wasn't having fun.

Doom Eternal is a polished, well-thought-out, creative, and visually gorgeous video game. So why the complaint? It doesn't feel like DOOM. It's complicated. The problem is that I think developers sometimes confuse complexity with creativity. You see, the enemies require more planning and precision to kill. You need to use the right weapons and hit the right weak points. The weapon mods and runes and points and whatever else they throw in, requires planning and customization, secrets abound that you are encouraged to look for, and finally there is the challenging platforming aspect- always fun in a FPS. (They only managed to get climbing ladders in FPS a less monitor-smashing exercise a few years ago). While they emphasize "keep moving" to keep the action looking frenetic, the reality is that my mind is constantly engaged in trying to keep track if I need health, so I need to hit E and glory kill, or do I need ammo, so I hit c to chainsaw, or armor so I got to hit r for my flamer, then kill the enemy, but which weapon do I have, which mod is set on it, what enemies are here, what are their weaknesses, does it match my weapon mod, and where do I need to go on this map, can't stop to look what's over the edge because KEEP MOVING, and so on... My mind is definitely engaged- Which is what is WRONG!

As I described above, when I sit down and decide to play Doom, it is because I am in a certain "mood"- a DOOMMOOD if you will. The DOOMMOOD hits when I'm stressed, been doing lots of problem solving, bummed out, etc... I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast. So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

As I reflect now, I think if I had bought a game called The Sentinels, that was described as a challenging platformer, with a story spanning divine and infernal realms, a mysterious hub where you can refine your tools and techniques, and enemies that you dominate by precision application of force combined with knowledge of their weakness, and then played this, I would give it an A+. I would have been in a Portal type mood, or maybe an Ori type mood. But it was called Doom. So I was disappointed. And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as "The Sentinels" and play it again in another mood, my conclusion will stand that this is a really good Game, but a really disappointing DOOM.

[potato]

good doom

[Lil Femboy Toes]

nah good Doom

[UNBREAKABLE]

It takes far more brain power to write this essay then it does to play Eternal. It's simply not for you and that's okay.

[SuperFly]

Well-stated, OP.

I was watching and very much enjoying the techno-fantasy of the new 'Masters of the Universe' limited series on Netflix. As things got shinier in the show, I couldn't help but be reminded of "DOOM":Eternal. . .
It was a bittersweet feeling.

'He-Man' isn't DOOM, yet the creative director insisted on that orientation of template.
This game seems to strive to be anything but "DOOM-like", with the DLC entries destroying any positive momentum generated by the sketchy main campaign.

The inability to respect the DOOM identity -- instead, often using it as a literal skin -- was one this game's biggest failings.

[Joker]

"Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow."

fallacious argument. artists cant make the same stuff forever until they die or retire or both. you cant tell a human being to make the same music for their entire career. its literally their career, so they decide, not you. you can enjoy an artist's old music if thats what you like, its why that old music is still accessible: for you to listen to it.
game devs are the same. the next instalment CANNOT be play like the prequel. people dont like it. they've made it known time and time again, and they will continue to do unless one day they decide they like it. but i personally dont see that day ever coming.
this isn't to mention that D:E is more like the OG titles than D2016. more platforming, level and enemy design closer to the OG titles, etc.

[Redrick]

Agree with OP. It is a good game, but I dont like it as a Doom game because it plays so differently, and I think that's where the problems begin. When I want a doom fix I play the old ones. The community will just have to agree to disagree with the split in opinion.

[Grampire]

We get it, you need superficial labels to fit where you think they should because you having a bad time doesn't sound important enough.

Here's the real truth - clearly we don't deserve a new Doom. It's an IP that should have died in the 90's - one that Romero revisits with a new WAD every now and then. You'd be happy, and we wouldn't have to hear about how the newest entry is sacrilege against us all - the thing you "love" but want to stay in it's tight fitting restricted cage that renders it irrelevant.

Pink Floyd released Animals and the Wall (let's pretend the Final Cut doesn't exist). And then they released AMLOR and the Division Bell - great albums that are largely panned as "easy listening" by the Waters leaning "True Believer" section of the fanbase.

They're just as insufferable as the people who come on here and claim this isn't Doom, and every bit as sanctimonious. Start phrasing your opinion correctly and leave everyone elseout of it.

[smallen7]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM Science:

I'm an old school gamer. Was around to play original Doom (and Wolfenstein before that). I generally try to be positive and try to separate my personal feelings about games, movies, music, etc from the work in and of itself.

I tried Doom Eternal for the second time recently. Doom 2016 was the most fun I had in a long time on a computer game with high intensity. I like most types of games. I started on Atari and Pong, so can appreciate the bounty of modern gaming. I usually enjoy depth and story, but occasionally, I want a game that I can jump and tear stuff up at 100 mph without thinking too much. It's like music. Sometimes I want Pink Floyd, with its complex arrangements and layered lyrics giving me pause to reflect on the human condition. Other times, I want Ministry- can't understand most of the lyrics, but it makes me feel like moving fast and breaking stuff.

Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow.

This is the problem with Doom Eternal, and why I have multiple completions of Doom 2016 and have given up on Doom Eternal twice now when I realized I wasn't having fun.

Doom Eternal is a polished, well-thought-out, creative, and visually gorgeous video game. So why the complaint? It doesn't feel like DOOM. It's complicated. The problem is that I think developers sometimes confuse complexity with creativity. You see, the enemies require more planning and precision to kill. You need to use the right weapons and hit the right weak points. The weapon mods and runes and points and whatever else they throw in, requires planning and customization, secrets abound that you are encouraged to look for, and finally there is the challenging platforming aspect- always fun in a FPS. (They only managed to get climbing ladders in FPS a less monitor-smashing exercise a few years ago). While they emphasize "keep moving" to keep the action looking frenetic, the reality is that my mind is constantly engaged in trying to keep track if I need health, so I need to hit E and glory kill, or do I need ammo, so I hit c to chainsaw, or armor so I got to hit r for my flamer, then kill the enemy, but which weapon do I have, which mod is set on it, what enemies are here, what are their weaknesses, does it match my weapon mod, and where do I need to go on this map, can't stop to look what's over the edge because KEEP MOVING, and so on... My mind is definitely engaged- Which is what is WRONG!

As I described above, when I sit down and decide to play Doom, it is because I am in a certain "mood"- a DOOMMOOD if you will. The DOOMMOOD hits when I'm stressed, been doing lots of problem solving, bummed out, etc... I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast. So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

As I reflect now, I think if I had bought a game called The Sentinels, that was described as a challenging platformer, with a story spanning divine and infernal realms, a mysterious hub where you can refine your tools and techniques, and enemies that you dominate by precision application of force combined with knowledge of their weakness, and then played this, I would give it an A+. I would have been in a Portal type mood, or maybe an Ori type mood. But it was called Doom. So I was disappointed. And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as "The Sentinels" and play it again in another mood, my conclusion will stand that this is a really good Game, but a really disappointing DOOM.

I agree.

[Ace]

The best DOOM game

[- EMPTY -]

Disguised Git Gud situation.

[furbleburble]

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM Science:

I'm an old school gamer. Was around to play original Doom (and Wolfenstein before that). I generally try to be positive and try to separate my personal feelings about games, movies, music, etc from the work in and of itself.

I tried Doom Eternal for the second time recently. Doom 2016 was the most fun I had in a long time on a computer game with high intensity. I like most types of games. I started on Atari and Pong, so can appreciate the bounty of modern gaming. I usually enjoy depth and story, but occasionally, I want a game that I can jump and tear stuff up at 100 mph without thinking too much. It's like music. Sometimes I want Pink Floyd, with its complex arrangements and layered lyrics giving me pause to reflect on the human condition. Other times, I want Ministry- can't understand most of the lyrics, but it makes me feel like moving fast and breaking stuff.

Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow.

This is the problem with Doom Eternal, and why I have multiple completions of Doom 2016 and have given up on Doom Eternal twice now when I realized I wasn't having fun.

Doom Eternal is a polished, well-thought-out, creative, and visually gorgeous video game. So why the complaint? It doesn't feel like DOOM. It's complicated. The problem is that I think developers sometimes confuse complexity with creativity. You see, the enemies require more planning and precision to kill. You need to use the right weapons and hit the right weak points. The weapon mods and runes and points and whatever else they throw in, requires planning and customization, secrets abound that you are encouraged to look for, and finally there is the challenging platforming aspect- always fun in a FPS. (They only managed to get climbing ladders in FPS a less monitor-smashing exercise a few years ago). While they emphasize "keep moving" to keep the action looking frenetic, the reality is that my mind is constantly engaged in trying to keep track if I need health, so I need to hit E and glory kill, or do I need ammo, so I hit c to chainsaw, or armor so I got to hit r for my flamer, then kill the enemy, but which weapon do I have, which mod is set on it, what enemies are here, what are their weaknesses, does it match my weapon mod, and where do I need to go on this map, can't stop to look what's over the edge because KEEP MOVING, and so on... My mind is definitely engaged- Which is what is WRONG!

As I described above, when I sit down and decide to play Doom, it is because I am in a certain "mood"- a DOOMMOOD if you will. The DOOMMOOD hits when I'm stressed, been doing lots of problem solving, bummed out, etc... I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast. So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

As I reflect now, I think if I had bought a game called The Sentinels, that was described as a challenging platformer, with a story spanning divine and infernal realms, a mysterious hub where you can refine your tools and techniques, and enemies that you dominate by precision application of force combined with knowledge of their weakness, and then played this, I would give it an A+. I would have been in a Portal type mood, or maybe an Ori type mood. But it was called Doom. So I was disappointed. And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as "The Sentinels" and play it again in another mood, my conclusion will stand that this is a really good Game, but a really disappointing DOOM.

You're entitled to your opinions but your opinions are uninformed. The arguments that you use against Eternal are a you thing, not a game thing. You can play Eternal exactly like you would play 2016 and still succeed at Eternal. I've completed Eternal's main campaign without ever using the chainsaw. You can kill every single enemy that has weakpoints without breaking the weakpoints. Weapon mods, runes, secrets, Glory Kills, and suit upgrades all exist in 2016 and so your arguments against their presence in Eternal are nonsensical. It's ironic, and telling, that you say, "I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast," when Eternal quite literally has the fastest combat in an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Doom product to date. I will agree that the platforming in Eternal is excessive if you want to make that claim, but it's no more difficult than what's in 2016, and at least if you fail in Eternal it's not instant death.

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM Science:

So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

If you're spending "hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava," this is entirely on you, not the game. If the game doesn't scratch your itch, cool, but these failures are on you and not the game. You being incompetent at the game is not a reflection on the game itself.

"And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as...." Instead of reframing anything, just learn how to play.

Personal story:

I beat 2016 twice before buying Eternal, first on Hurt Me Plenty and then on Nightmare. I didn't even know about quickswapping at the time. I found 2016 kinda boring and disappointing, like a slow-paced Painkiller, and so I turned the difficulty up for my second playthrough hoping that would help but it did not. I found it made the game more difficult, but I didn't really get more joy out of it.

I completed Eternal first on Hurt Me Plenty and second on Nightmare. I learned of quickswapping while playing Eternal's main campaign, but I didn't learn how until part way through TAG 1. Since completing Eternal, I've taken everything I learned while playing it into 2016 and basically broke 2016.

Personal story time is over.

It's ok to be bad at a game. It's ok to dislike a game. But if you're going to post your opinion of a game then you should demonstrate that you understand said game. If you don't like aspects of a game then you should make sure you actually understand those aspects before speaking on them. All you've really demonstrated is that you have little to no understanding of Eternal, 2016, Ori, and Portal.

Videos:
No chainsaw, main campaign

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR8Ic-jmSYU

[Grampire]

Diposting pertama kali oleh furbleburble:

You can play Eternal exactly like you would play 2016 and still succeed at Eternal.

*chefs kiss*

A fun exercise for gatekeepy, filtered users who create threads like this -

1. Head over to the Doom 2016 forum.
   
2. In the search function, enter the same criticisms you have for Doom Eternal.
   
3. Be amazed at the fact that people have the same criticism you're leveling against Eternal in that game. (Including Ammo!)

Just blew your mind, didn't I?

So Doom 2016 is also apparently "not Doom." Why is that and how does that factor into your calculus, OP?

[Erwin_Von_Braun]

Diposting pertama kali oleh SuperFly:

Well-stated, OP.

I was watching and very much enjoying the techno-fantasy of the new 'Masters of the Universe' limited series on Netflix. As things got shinier in the show, I couldn't help but be reminded of "DOOM":Eternal. . .
It was a bittersweet feeling.

'He-Man' isn't DOOM, yet the creative director insisted on that orientation of template.
This game seems to strive to be anything but "DOOM-like", with the DLC entries destroying any positive momentum generated by the sketchy main campaign.

The inability to respect the DOOM identity -- instead, often using it as a literal skin -- was one this game's biggest failings.

I couldn't have put it better myself.

[Erwin_Von_Braun]

Diposting pertama kali oleh furbleburble:

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM Science:

I'm an old school gamer. Was around to play original Doom (and Wolfenstein before that). I generally try to be positive and try to separate my personal feelings about games, movies, music, etc from the work in and of itself.

I tried Doom Eternal for the second time recently. Doom 2016 was the most fun I had in a long time on a computer game with high intensity. I like most types of games. I started on Atari and Pong, so can appreciate the bounty of modern gaming. I usually enjoy depth and story, but occasionally, I want a game that I can jump and tear stuff up at 100 mph without thinking too much. It's like music. Sometimes I want Pink Floyd, with its complex arrangements and layered lyrics giving me pause to reflect on the human condition. Other times, I want Ministry- can't understand most of the lyrics, but it makes me feel like moving fast and breaking stuff.

Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow.

This is the problem with Doom Eternal, and why I have multiple completions of Doom 2016 and have given up on Doom Eternal twice now when I realized I wasn't having fun.

Doom Eternal is a polished, well-thought-out, creative, and visually gorgeous video game. So why the complaint? It doesn't feel like DOOM. It's complicated. The problem is that I think developers sometimes confuse complexity with creativity. You see, the enemies require more planning and precision to kill. You need to use the right weapons and hit the right weak points. The weapon mods and runes and points and whatever else they throw in, requires planning and customization, secrets abound that you are encouraged to look for, and finally there is the challenging platforming aspect- always fun in a FPS. (They only managed to get climbing ladders in FPS a less monitor-smashing exercise a few years ago). While they emphasize "keep moving" to keep the action looking frenetic, the reality is that my mind is constantly engaged in trying to keep track if I need health, so I need to hit E and glory kill, or do I need ammo, so I hit c to chainsaw, or armor so I got to hit r for my flamer, then kill the enemy, but which weapon do I have, which mod is set on it, what enemies are here, what are their weaknesses, does it match my weapon mod, and where do I need to go on this map, can't stop to look what's over the edge because KEEP MOVING, and so on... My mind is definitely engaged- Which is what is WRONG!

As I described above, when I sit down and decide to play Doom, it is because I am in a certain "mood"- a DOOMMOOD if you will. The DOOMMOOD hits when I'm stressed, been doing lots of problem solving, bummed out, etc... I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast. So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

As I reflect now, I think if I had bought a game called The Sentinels, that was described as a challenging platformer, with a story spanning divine and infernal realms, a mysterious hub where you can refine your tools and techniques, and enemies that you dominate by precision application of force combined with knowledge of their weakness, and then played this, I would give it an A+. I would have been in a Portal type mood, or maybe an Ori type mood. But it was called Doom. So I was disappointed. And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as "The Sentinels" and play it again in another mood, my conclusion will stand that this is a really good Game, but a really disappointing DOOM.

You're entitled to your opinions but your opinions are uninformed. The arguments that you use against Eternal are a you thing, not a game thing. You can play Eternal exactly like you would play 2016 and still succeed at Eternal. I've completed Eternal's main campaign without ever using the chainsaw. You can kill every single enemy that has weakpoints without breaking the weakpoints. Weapon mods, runes, secrets, Glory Kills, and suit upgrades all exist in 2016 and so your arguments against their presence in Eternal are nonsensical. It's ironic, and telling, that you say, "I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast," when Eternal quite literally has the fastest combat in an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ Doom product to date. I will agree that the platforming in Eternal is excessive if you want to make that claim, but it's no more difficult than what's in 2016, and at least if you fail in Eternal it's not instant death.

Diposting pertama kali oleh DM Science:

So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

If you're spending "hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava," this is entirely on you, not the game. If the game doesn't scratch your itch, cool, but these failures are on you and not the game. You being incompetent at the game is not a reflection on the game itself.

"And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as...." Instead of reframing anything, just learn how to play.

Personal story:

I beat 2016 twice before buying Eternal, first on Hurt Me Plenty and then on Nightmare. I didn't even know about quickswapping at the time. I found 2016 kinda boring and disappointing, like a slow-paced Painkiller, and so I turned the difficulty up for my second playthrough hoping that would help but it did not. I found it made the game more difficult, but I didn't really get more joy out of it.

I completed Eternal first on Hurt Me Plenty and second on Nightmare. I learned of quickswapping while playing Eternal's main campaign, but I didn't learn how until part way through TAG 1. Since completing Eternal, I've taken everything I learned while playing it into 2016 and basically broke 2016.

Personal story time is over.

It's ok to be bad at a game. It's ok to dislike a game. But if you're going to post your opinion of a game then you should demonstrate that you understand said game. If you don't like aspects of a game then you should make sure you actually understand those aspects before speaking on them. All you've really demonstrated is that you have little to no understanding of Eternal, 2016, Ori, and Portal.

Videos:
No chainsaw, main campaign

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR8Ic-jmSYU

How can an opinion like that be uninformed?

If a game doesn't engage you, for whatever reason, then it is subjectively a bad game -just as you think it's subjectively a good game.

Understanding that not everyone shares your world view is the first step towards enlightenment.

[furbleburble]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Erwin_Von_Braun:

How can an opinion like that be uninformed?

If a game doesn't engage you, for whatever reason, then it is subjectively a bad game -just as you think it's subjectively a good game.

Understanding that not everyone shares your world view is the first step towards enlightenment.

I outlined how the opinion is uninformed. If you're going to blatantly ignore that then there is no pointing in engaging with you.