Doom Eternal - Good Game, Bad Doom?

[DM Science]

I'm an old school gamer. Was around to play original Doom (and Wolfenstein before that). I generally try to be positive and try to separate my personal feelings about games, movies, music, etc from the work in and of itself.

I tried Doom Eternal for the second time recently. Doom 2016 was the most fun I had in a long time on a computer game with high intensity. I like most types of games. I started on Atari and Pong, so can appreciate the bounty of modern gaming. I usually enjoy depth and story, but occasionally, I want a game that I can jump and tear stuff up at 100 mph without thinking too much. It's like music. Sometimes I want Pink Floyd, with its complex arrangements and layered lyrics giving me pause to reflect on the human condition. Other times, I want Ministry- can't understand most of the lyrics, but it makes me feel like moving fast and breaking stuff.

Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow.

This is the problem with Doom Eternal, and why I have multiple completions of Doom 2016 and have given up on Doom Eternal twice now when I realized I wasn't having fun.

Doom Eternal is a polished, well-thought-out, creative, and visually gorgeous video game. So why the complaint? It doesn't feel like DOOM. It's complicated. The problem is that I think developers sometimes confuse complexity with creativity. You see, the enemies require more planning and precision to kill. You need to use the right weapons and hit the right weak points. The weapon mods and runes and points and whatever else they throw in, requires planning and customization, secrets abound that you are encouraged to look for, and finally there is the challenging platforming aspect- always fun in a FPS. (They only managed to get climbing ladders in FPS a less monitor-smashing exercise a few years ago). While they emphasize "keep moving" to keep the action looking frenetic, the reality is that my mind is constantly engaged in trying to keep track if I need health, so I need to hit E and glory kill, or do I need ammo, so I hit c to chainsaw, or armor so I got to hit r for my flamer, then kill the enemy, but which weapon do I have, which mod is set on it, what enemies are here, what are their weaknesses, does it match my weapon mod, and where do I need to go on this map, can't stop to look what's over the edge because KEEP MOVING, and so on... My mind is definitely engaged- Which is what is WRONG!

As I described above, when I sit down and decide to play Doom, it is because I am in a certain "mood"- a DOOMMOOD if you will. The DOOMMOOD hits when I'm stressed, been doing lots of problem solving, bummed out, etc... I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast. So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

As I reflect now, I think if I had bought a game called The Sentinels, that was described as a challenging platformer, with a story spanning divine and infernal realms, a mysterious hub where you can refine your tools and techniques, and enemies that you dominate by precision application of force combined with knowledge of their weakness, and then played this, I would give it an A+. I would have been in a Portal type mood, or maybe an Ori type mood. But it was called Doom. So I was disappointed. And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as "The Sentinels" and play it again in another mood, my conclusion will stand that this is a really good Game, but a really disappointing DOOM.

[Grampire]

Publicado originalmente por Nix-Man:

And if you wanna talk about "eyerolls", I audibly groaned at the literal MCU Endgame scenes in TAG part 2. It was all just so beyond trite and lead up to the biggest letdown in final boss fight history, were in the end the power fantasy is completely deflated because they just shove the slayer into another box in some nowhere dimension that may as well be under Courage the Cowardly Dogs farmhouse. :direyes:

Ah gotcha. What did robot man stealing your sword and locking you away in a cage do to said power fantasy at the end of 2016?

In 2016 you are literally behaving at his pleasure while failing for some reason to catch a crippled woman who cant even run.

[Wiesshund]

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

You’re not “saving Mars” in 2016. You’re saving Earth. Demons don’t want or need Mars, they’ve gathered all the souls there already. They just need a hole in our dimension to pour through with their endless legions.

No one ever saves anything in Doom really.
Not back then nor now.

More about revenge to me?

Doom 1, again, Mars is already fubar, no fixing that, only exacting some revenge
and slamming the door on their heads

Doom 2, you can not really save earth.
Once little girls and bunny rabbits are all dead, there is nothing to save.
So be back to vengeance again.

But, it's Doom
Happy ending was never promised LoL

Doom 3?
I dont think i actually saved anyone?
Maybe i did but forgot?

[Nix-Man]

Publicado originalmente por Grampire:

Ah gotcha. What did robot man stealing your sword and locking you away in a cage do to said power fantasy at the end of 2016?

Had a feeling you'd bring this up. And yes while it was quite unsatisfying with the way '16 ended initially, the difference here is hindsight. We all knew 8 years ago that this was a cliffhanger ending. The game did so well that it was pretty much guaranteed that we'd be back in the boots of the doom slayer several years later. So while dissatisfying in the moment, id software was clearly cooking up a new adventure in the background after the sale numbers were locked in.

The devs also made you as the player want to beat the ever loving ♥♥♥♥ out of Sam's smug robo face. The devs put you as the player in confinement, wondering how the hell Doom Guy was ever going to get out of this one. And what ended up happening? They JJ Abram's the whole thing.

We never see nor experience the jailbreak sequence. DE just starts up with the absolute hubris to be like, "Nah, ♥♥♥♥ that ♥♥♥♥. He's got a space castle now, booooyyyyyy." Like what? Where did this come from?

And yes, I know there was supposed to be a prequel comic explaining these missing chunks in the story, but 1: to my knowledge we never got that comic. And 2: this is a vidya. The only entertainment medium were you are actually meant to experience and sometime even influence these story beats. And Doom has a history of lackluster media ventures outside of its own wheelhouse. And depending on who you ask around here, sometimes even within that same house-o-wheels.

And Sammy H? Well turns out he was ripped a sunder off screen and is just taking a power nap at the top of his skyscraper. Oh, and btw, all the bread crumbs we set up for him being a human turned machine due to his own ego (or possibly being literal Satan, as was the prevailing theory at the time), he's just a dark lord Makyr simp.

Jeez, who wrote this, Ryan Johnson?

But to attempt to wrap things back around to my major point to begin with, if we are looking back at '16 as if it was in a vacuum, there was a LOT of spirited conversations on whether or not the Slayer was indeed the original Doom Guy. These debates were a ton of fun to jump in and out of cause everyone had a fun take on the matter (assuming they even cared though, because despite what everyone here regurgitates, the story DOES matter. It may not be the focus, but people were on the payroll at id software to flush out the world building and help drive the players motivation from one set piece to the next). And while in the moment, it was cool getting that conclusive answer, it also ultimately shot that debate right in the head.

By leaving practically zero mystery left in-universe, with less than satisfying answers to questions that were set up, by id software, the fanbase has nothing left to discuss other than "My game goes 'BURRR' harder than the last".

What kind of discourse is that? It's mundane/repetitive at best, and cringe inducing at worst. And the fact that a select few who get a touch defensive about ANYONE having a differing viewpoint on the last two games just paints the biggest bullseye's on your back for trolls. Which fyi, you can't "own" a troll. Trolls have no skin in the game and the only enjoyment they get is from wasting your time.

But moreover, it takes people like me, who had quite genuine moments with a few of you in the past and makes me scratch my head more and more as time marches on, in frank disbelief, that the same mother-♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ are STILL at it all this years later? lol

I guess that's ultimate were this wall of text ends. Why would ANYONE of sound mind want to have a fun loving conversations with fanaticals on here. Especially when the ones entering the chat have nothing but honest, well meaning intentions (albeit few and far between, considering where i'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ posting this comment) and hope to find that middle-ground were we can both agree that there's things to like in both games?

[Nix-Man]

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

You’re not “saving Mars” in 2016. You’re saving Earth. Demons don’t want or need Mars, they’ve gathered all the souls there already. They just need a hole in our dimension to pour through with their endless legions.

Semantics, my dear Sar's. By preventing the chaotic escalation on Mars (aka, saving it) he is stopping the spread of the demon outbreak. Don't be so thick my man.

[Grampire]

Publicado originalmente por Nix-Man:

But moreover, it takes people like me, who had quite genuine moments with a few of you in the past and makes me scratch my head more and more as time marches on, in frank disbelief, that the same mother-♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ are STILL at it all this years later? lol

I guess that's ultimate were this wall of text ends. Why would ANYONE of sound mind want to have a fun loving conversations with fanaticals on here. Especially when the ones entering the chat have nothing but honest, well meaning intentions (albeit few and far between, considering where i'm ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ posting this comment) and hope to find that middle-ground were we can both agree that there's things to like in both games?

Rhetorical sanctimony aside - I'd wager that middle-ground is occupied by most fans of NuDoom. So seems like "people like you"are missing your mark there. Both titles resurrected a dying IP into the contemporary market. Discussing that and comparing them is inevitable - and that's the root of the discussion.

But truthfully I do often wonder why I keep coming back - boredom, addiction - maybe, probably. Maybe there's an inexplicable allure to being judged by strangers online - seeking some sort of validation. I don't know - people are complicated and flawed, guilty as charged.

But I think there are much worse things than arguing about nonsense on a video game forum, like arguing about identity politics and things that are actually bothersome and hurtful to people in the real world. Everyone needs their blow-valve and this just works for some people. And the scars are much more superficial.

So - why engage with "fanatics?" That's the best thing about rhetorical questions - aside from them being cheap, quaint jabs: they don't really want an answer. So, don't engage and just move on. I'm sure there's a forum about identity politics, quantum entanglement, whatever floats your boat somewhere that will be much more fulfilling. But me? I'm cool hiding out in this no-man's land, spouting a bunch of nonsense, and occasionally being asked "what's the point." Because it'd be the same answer in either scenario.

[Nix-Man]

Honestly Gramps, that response washed over me like the coolest of summer breezes. Thanks for the introspective reply.

I don't really make it a secret that I enjoy lurking around the boards, mostly cause I generally find nothing fights to be particularly entertaining. And naturally, I'm just as fallible as the rest of the steam forums by extension of that fact.

So maybe you're right. I should probably pick up a book and break the cycle of a nasty habit, fostered out of my own boredom. But also, I sometimes forget why I toss you awards every now and again. And this ones no different.

Apologies for any derailment.

[FreshlyGrilledPanic]

Day #394 and this thread is still too serious

[Sar]

Publicado originalmente por Wiesshund:

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

You’re not “saving Mars” in 2016. You’re saving Earth. Demons don’t want or need Mars, they’ve gathered all the souls there already. They just need a hole in our dimension to pour through with their endless legions.

No one ever saves anything in Doom really.
Not back then nor now.

I'm sorry, I don't really buy into Doom being some kind of Spec Ops: The Line, but with demons. You stop the demonic invasion in Doom 1, but the twist is they still invade Earth... somehow. So you go back to Earth, allow the remaining humans to leave safely in their spaceships by fighting through the starport, and then you go to Hell to kill a big bad dfemon. This helps for a while, but then demons invade again (TNT), and again (Plutonia), and again (Doom 64), until you get tired of their shenanigans and decide to stay in Hell to keep them in check. In Doom 3, you do save Earth as well, at the cost of your sanity. In Eternal, you decisively cut off Hell away from all the other dimensions, effectively trapping demons in there forever, at least in nuDoom universe. It's a win, even if billions had to die because Sam Hayden was too confident.

Publicado originalmente por Nix-Man:

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

You’re not “saving Mars” in 2016. You’re saving Earth. Demons don’t want or need Mars, they’ve gathered all the souls there already. They just need a hole in our dimension to pour through with their endless legions.

Semantics, my dear Sar's. By preventing the chaotic escalation on Mars (aka, saving it) he is stopping the spread of the demon outbreak. Don't be so thick my man.

Uh, you don't prevent the chaotic escalation on Mars. Mars gets nommed by demons big time at the end of Argent Tower. It's just that human colony on Mars is relatively slow and the obvious implications are that Earth is next. Anyway, how is that a "small stakes story" is the fate of humanity is, quite literally, at stake?

[Sar]

Publicado originalmente por Nix-Man:

We never see nor experience the jailbreak sequence.

Does it truly matter? This is a modern version of Doom 2: Hell on Earth, so it starts, fittingly, with Hell on Earth. Do you really need a sequence where Doomguy escapes from some kind of high tech prison, gets his armor back, maybe sneaks past some robots? It's easy to assume Hayden teleported him to the floating castle and it took Doomguy and Vega some time to bring it back to fully operational status and reach Earth. The game isn't about escaping prisons and repairing stuff and finding your way back to Earth; the game is about jumping into awesome levels and having good time blasting demons apart.

[min3r95]

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

Does it truly matter? This is a modern version of Doom 2: Hell on Earth, so it starts, fittingly, with Hell on Earth. Do you really need a sequence where Doomguy escapes from some kind of high tech prison, gets his armor back, maybe sneaks past some robots? It's easy to assume Hayden teleported him to the floating castle and it took Doomguy and Vega some time to bring it back to fully operational status and reach Earth. The game isn't about escaping prisons and repairing stuff and finding your way back to Earth; the game is about jumping into awesome levels and having good time blasting demons apart.

Whether it matter or not, still freaking cool if we can see that though.

[Sar]

This is Doom. Any story idea is only as cool as the gameplay you’re attaching it to.

Reminds me of Wolfenstein: The Old Blood, the supposedly gameplay-focused offshoot of New Order. You have your lengthy narrative intro a-la Half-Life (or Unreal, even), then a brief burst of action, and then the first chapter is a lengthy stealth mission where you need to sneak around huge robot dudes. You can steal a minigun off one of them, but the section has special doors designed to make you drop this minigun. It’s not that long, but it’s annoying, not fun and is one of those things that will likely stop me from ever replaying that fairly decent FPS.

[min3r95]

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

This is Doom. Any story idea is only as cool as the gameplay you’re attaching it to.

Reminds me of Wolfenstein: The Old Blood, the supposedly gameplay-focused offshoot of New Order. You have your lengthy narrative intro a-la Half-Life (or Unreal, even), then a brief burst of action, and then the first chapter is a lengthy stealth mission where you need to sneak around huge robot dudes. You can steal a minigun off one of them, but the section has special doors designed to make you drop this minigun. It’s not that long, but it’s annoying, not fun and is one of those things that will likely stop me from ever replaying that fairly decent FPS.

ID can totally pull off a Doom game with good story, gameplay and level design.

[Sar]

Publicado originalmente por min3r95:

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

This is Doom. Any story idea is only as cool as the gameplay you’re attaching it to.

Reminds me of Wolfenstein: The Old Blood, the supposedly gameplay-focused offshoot of New Order. You have your lengthy narrative intro a-la Half-Life (or Unreal, even), then a brief burst of action, and then the first chapter is a lengthy stealth mission where you need to sneak around huge robot dudes. You can steal a minigun off one of them, but the section has special doors designed to make you drop this minigun. It’s not that long, but it’s annoying, not fun and is one of those things that will likely stop me from ever replaying that fairly decent FPS.

ID can totally pull off a Doom game with good story, gameplay and level design.:coolkitty:

I’ll believe it when I see it.

[min3r95]

Publicado originalmente por Sar:

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Then we need a Doom game like that to come out

[Sar]

I don’t. I need a Doom game with excellent gameplay. There are dozens of good FPS. Eternal, for me, was exceptional. I need more of that and not just something that is “good enough” in every respect!