Doom Eternal - Good Game, Bad Doom?

[DM Science]

I'm an old school gamer. Was around to play original Doom (and Wolfenstein before that). I generally try to be positive and try to separate my personal feelings about games, movies, music, etc from the work in and of itself.

I tried Doom Eternal for the second time recently. Doom 2016 was the most fun I had in a long time on a computer game with high intensity. I like most types of games. I started on Atari and Pong, so can appreciate the bounty of modern gaming. I usually enjoy depth and story, but occasionally, I want a game that I can jump and tear stuff up at 100 mph without thinking too much. It's like music. Sometimes I want Pink Floyd, with its complex arrangements and layered lyrics giving me pause to reflect on the human condition. Other times, I want Ministry- can't understand most of the lyrics, but it makes me feel like moving fast and breaking stuff.

Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow.

This is the problem with Doom Eternal, and why I have multiple completions of Doom 2016 and have given up on Doom Eternal twice now when I realized I wasn't having fun.

Doom Eternal is a polished, well-thought-out, creative, and visually gorgeous video game. So why the complaint? It doesn't feel like DOOM. It's complicated. The problem is that I think developers sometimes confuse complexity with creativity. You see, the enemies require more planning and precision to kill. You need to use the right weapons and hit the right weak points. The weapon mods and runes and points and whatever else they throw in, requires planning and customization, secrets abound that you are encouraged to look for, and finally there is the challenging platforming aspect- always fun in a FPS. (They only managed to get climbing ladders in FPS a less monitor-smashing exercise a few years ago). While they emphasize "keep moving" to keep the action looking frenetic, the reality is that my mind is constantly engaged in trying to keep track if I need health, so I need to hit E and glory kill, or do I need ammo, so I hit c to chainsaw, or armor so I got to hit r for my flamer, then kill the enemy, but which weapon do I have, which mod is set on it, what enemies are here, what are their weaknesses, does it match my weapon mod, and where do I need to go on this map, can't stop to look what's over the edge because KEEP MOVING, and so on... My mind is definitely engaged- Which is what is WRONG!

As I described above, when I sit down and decide to play Doom, it is because I am in a certain "mood"- a DOOMMOOD if you will. The DOOMMOOD hits when I'm stressed, been doing lots of problem solving, bummed out, etc... I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast. So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

As I reflect now, I think if I had bought a game called The Sentinels, that was described as a challenging platformer, with a story spanning divine and infernal realms, a mysterious hub where you can refine your tools and techniques, and enemies that you dominate by precision application of force combined with knowledge of their weakness, and then played this, I would give it an A+. I would have been in a Portal type mood, or maybe an Ori type mood. But it was called Doom. So I was disappointed. And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as "The Sentinels" and play it again in another mood, my conclusion will stand that this is a really good Game, but a really disappointing DOOM.

[Wiesshund]

Publicado originalmente por BubonicDuck:

surely you'd value the opinions of the professional critics?

LoL No.
If i listened to them, i would never do anything, never leave the house, hardly eat anything etc.

They get paid money
To tell me what to think.

Except,
Nobody tells me what to think.

[Ζiоqch]

Interesting responses. But I do have more questions.
Such as: Why is Icon Sin black? Is Coom guy racist?

[Wiesshund]

Publicado originalmente por Ζipоh:

Interesting responses. But I do have more questions.
Such as: Why is Icon Sin black? Is Coom guy racist?

Black is the presence of all colors.
So it is very inclusive

[T37]

he's right you know

[Coke (music)]

Publicado originalmente por Wiesshund:

Publicado originalmente por BubonicDuck:

surely you'd value the opinions of the professional critics?

Except,
Nobody tells me what to think.

[Damien]

Publicado originalmente por SaviorAssassin1996:

Doom Eternal is more Doom than Doom 3 so...

Actually every single doom game has elevated the aspects of said series, even Doom 3 was a betterment of previous iteration. Hi, I've gamed since -84 on the PC and Doom came when I was 12. It was the ♥♥♥♥ when it came out. It broke boundaries. Following that idea I really do feel that each Doom game we've received has been that same ground breaking release that defines said era. It' really nice to see gore, really nice to enjoy proper coding, really nice to have such balls deep hardcore soundtrack while doing the others above. It's a boomer shooter with today's previleges, like eye cande and such. Show me another game that is so much about the gameplay and end user experience as Doom Eternal is. We said about 2016 what we saId and ID responded with such a beautiful move.

I was the longest not on board or even tried out Eternal, now that I have it, I feel ashamed that I let my ego do my bidding. It's so challenging and so rewarding at the same time, just like the boomer want's it to be. Doom is the daddy with the bigger balls that hang really really low, ankle lvl.

[Leckz]

bad doom? let me laugh

[Jordan_Peterson]

Publicado originalmente por 1337Dude:

I think nuDoom brought in a lot of new Doom fans. It's probably safe to say that people who still play and appreciate the old Doom, or once used to, aren't present here in the forum. It's also probably safe to say the majority of the people who hang out in this forum are fans of nuDoom.

If you hang out in other Doom forums, particularly ones that are oriented towards the classic DOOM games, you'll probably find most of the people in those forums aren't as favorable to nuDoom as the people in this forum. A lot of people are fans of both, but I'd overall they are different fanbases and appeal to different people with some overlap on the basis that it's the DOOM IP.

You are not far from the truth.
Most hardcore toxic people here are fans of the nuhDoom. That's why they attack everyone who forms any sort of criticism. No matter if its something small or big, they will attack the person, not the argument.
Most gamers who are not interested in games that much or the franchise will leave occasionally a comment or open a thread, stating how awful the game design in DE is, or how awful the parkour element is, or how bad the game is in overall.
But when they get harassed by the fanbase, so they often leave after that.

It all boils down to my post here:

Publicado originalmente por Jordan Peterson:

So basically if you are a hardcore fan nothing can be said to proof how gad this game is, you just wont accept it and then say the one having the valid argument is either bad at the game or has never played it, even though you know he played it and is not bad at it.
Good to know.
So the title still stands and no one has brought up any counter argument, it is all just attacking the messengers, not the message.

In my opinion, it is safe to say that whoever wrote for or worked at Kotaku in the last few years would share the same mindset or opinion as some of the hardcore DE:fenders here. Gaming sites have become a joke due to this kind of mindset and attitude, which either sugarcoats, exaggerates, or worships a game to the fullest without truly understanding anything about video games. It's all just absolute unfiltered subjective bias, devoid of any objectivity.

TL;DR
In essence, we're not just debating here; we're essentially holding a masterclass for the next wave of Kotaku staff. Or, to put it more humorously, consider this the boot camp for those destined to become ex-Kotaku writers soon!
LMAO

[Erwin_Von_Braun]

Publicado originalmente por BubonicDuck:

Publicado originalmente por SuperFly:

Big numbers -- that didn't hold anyone's interest for more than 6 weeks. . .
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3008123313

ITT we've already covered this.

The amount of players that jumped ship from DOOM:Eternal in less than a fiscal quarter is just as staggering as the big sales figures and aggregate scores that diehards cling to.

Doom 2016's player count dropped from 31,600 to 12,000 after 1 month.
Both games are single player focused games that can be completed casually within a week.
This is very standard for single player games; Eden Ring lost 500,000 players between Feb28 22 and Mar28 22. It went from 952,500 to 457,000.

DOOM:Eternal's big initial numbers didn't deliver for a DOOM game, despite all those pre-order sales from fans hoping for a worthy follow-up to the still-contending 'DOOM' (2016).
Ultimately, they didn't get it.

Doom Eternal peaked at 84,800. Doom 2016 peaked at 31,600.
After 1 month DE had 20,000 people playing it, that's 8k more players than 2016.
After 4 months Doom had 3700 players and DE had 7500.
More people played DE than ever played Doom 2016.
This very day, Doom has 1000 and DE has 2000 players.
Did you forget we already went over this?


Again if you look at Steam Achievements, 32.5% of DE players have completed the game, while it's 33.1% of Doom 2016 players who have finished the game.
Aprox 10500 people on Steam finished Doom 2016.
Aprox 27600 people on Steam finished Doom Eternal.

:ClassicQuack:

That's not 'review bombing' or 'controversies' taking a brief toll & being ironed out by Steam's adaptive metrics -- that's players going over their allotted 2 hour time limit for Valve's return policy, and checking out en masse from a 'nustyle' that failed to catch on.

The review bombing, very clearly, refers to the negative reviews around the end of 2022.
Not sure what you even mean here as the reviews are not player counts.

I'm not surprised neither you or Peterson have addressed it having the highest review scores.

Publicado originalmente por Erwin_Von_Braun:

No, it doesn't.
DOOM Eternal being a case in point - just because someone likes something that does not make it objectively 'good'
Good & bad are merely points of view.

There is no such thing as objectively good.
The closest we can do to determine is some kind of peer review system, like using experts and a general sample, creating some sort of numeric metric to scale and score games.

If you don't trust the opinions of the unwashed masses, surely you'd value the opinions of the professional critics?

No, not in the slightest - largely because, no matter how opinionated the critic is, it is still just the opinion of one person.

Edit: Regarding your statement concerning Eternal having the 'highest review scores'
I've just had a look and Eternal has a 'VERY Positive' rating whilst 2016 has an OVERWHELMINGLY positive rating.
I wonder if sir would be kind enough to explain how that works...

[Erwin_Von_Braun]

So, in keeping with the OP, this game does have it's merits - some parts could even be good, given the appropriate visual presentation ofc, but it very much IS bad DOOM.

[SuperFly]

Publicado originalmente por Erwin_Von_Braun:

Publicado originalmente por BubonicDuck:

ITT we've already covered this.
. . .

Edit: Regarding your statement concerning Eternal having the 'highest review scores'
I've just had a look and Eternal has a 'VERY Positive' rating whilst 2016 has an OVERWHELMINGLY positive rating.
I wonder if sir would be kind enough to explain how that works...

There is little factual information in any of what was said.
Citing all the fallacies would make for a lengthy list.

Big figures make for big failures once a reader applies a little critical thought to the data.
Big discrepancies in acceptance & engagement can't be hidden by parading pocketed gains.

D:E didn't perform for its pedigree, or its population.

[Wiesshund]

Publicado originalmente por Jordan Peterson:

Publicado originalmente por 1337Dude:

It's probably safe to say that people who still play and appreciate the old Doom, or once used to, aren't present here in the forum.

You are not far from the truth.

You are both very far from the truth, except for inside your own minds.

[Ace]

Publicado originalmente por SuperFly:

Publicado originalmente por Erwin_Von_Braun:

Edit: Regarding your statement concerning Eternal having the 'highest review scores'
I've just had a look and Eternal has a 'VERY Positive' rating whilst 2016 has an OVERWHELMINGLY positive rating.
I wonder if sir would be kind enough to explain how that works...

There is little factual information in any of what was said.
Citing all the fallacies would make for a lengthy list.

Big figures make for big failures once a reader applies a little critical thought to the data.
Big discrepancies in acceptance & engagement can't be hidden by parading pocketed gains.

D:E didn't perform for its pedigree, or its population.

100% Factually incorrect.

[Grampire]

Publicado originalmente por SuperFly:

Publicado originalmente por Erwin_Von_Braun:

Edit: Regarding your statement concerning Eternal having the 'highest review scores'
I've just had a look and Eternal has a 'VERY Positive' rating whilst 2016 has an OVERWHELMINGLY positive rating.
I wonder if sir would be kind enough to explain how that works...

There is little factual information in any of what was said.
Citing all the fallacies would make for a lengthy list.

Big figures make for big failures once a reader applies a little critical thought to the data.
Big discrepancies in acceptance & engagement can't be hidden by parading pocketed gains.

D:E didn't perform for its pedigree, or its population.

Useless, vague, emotional response. I thought you were against this sort of thing?

At least the Steamchart was showing you were making a really bad analysis. This is just kinda dogmatic and sad.

Try again maybe?

[BubonicDuck]

Publicado originalmente por Erwin_Von_Braun:

No, not in the slightest - largely because, no matter how opinionated the critic is, it is still just the opinion of one person.

One person's opinion being assumed to be the opinion of the majority is very silly.

Which is why we don't use one expert and their findings, we do a meta-analysis.
Not just of experts, but the general community.

Publicado originalmente por Erwin_Von_Braun:

Edit: Regarding your statement concerning Eternal having the 'highest review scores'
I've just had a look and Eternal has a 'VERY Positive' rating whilst 2016 has an OVERWHELMINGLY positive rating.
I wonder if sir would be kind enough to explain how that works...

Publicado originalmente por BubonicDuck:

Publicado originalmente por Jordan Peterson:

you're bound to fail.

>Highest Metacritic score, both critic and user.
>Second best selling ID Software game of all time.
>Still Very Positive on Steam after the Mick Gordon controversy and review bombing.

It was in reference to the Metacritic score.
The Steam score was mentioned separately.

Publicado originalmente por SuperFly:

There is little factual information in any of what was said.
Citing all the fallacies would make for a lengthy list.

Is SteamCharts not valid? Okay I'll use SteamCount, the source you used and oh, look at that, it's almost identical, just the numbers are bigger on SteamCount.
It still shows the same trends I was pointing out.

In regards to the Metacritic scores:
https://www.metacritic.com/game/doom/critic-reviews/?platform=pc
https://www.metacritic.com/game/doom-eternal/critic-reviews/?platform=pc

Guess all these stats and data are fallacies, and reality is SuperFly's personal opinion.
People only bought Doom Eternal as they were big Doom 2016 fans and only wanted the new game because they loved 2016. Upon playing the game, everyone refunded it and it was a big flop. No one even plays this game anymore as it's so bad.

He's got no data to back up any of this but man sure is insistent that his personal opinion is an infallible truth, even when he contradicts himself.