Doom Eternal - Good Game, Bad Doom?

[DM Science]

I'm an old school gamer. Was around to play original Doom (and Wolfenstein before that). I generally try to be positive and try to separate my personal feelings about games, movies, music, etc from the work in and of itself.

I tried Doom Eternal for the second time recently. Doom 2016 was the most fun I had in a long time on a computer game with high intensity. I like most types of games. I started on Atari and Pong, so can appreciate the bounty of modern gaming. I usually enjoy depth and story, but occasionally, I want a game that I can jump and tear stuff up at 100 mph without thinking too much. It's like music. Sometimes I want Pink Floyd, with its complex arrangements and layered lyrics giving me pause to reflect on the human condition. Other times, I want Ministry- can't understand most of the lyrics, but it makes me feel like moving fast and breaking stuff.

Now imagine you were feeling aggressive. Had a long week and you don't want to think about anything, just let off some steam. You pick up a newly released Ministry album, only to find they have branched off from industrial speed metal to a slower, more clean sound. The vocals are clearer and they are taking distortion out of the guitar.
It may be brilliant and beautiful- a work of musical art. But you're still angry. Why? You bought a Ministry album, you expect Ministry. If they wanted to experiment under a different name, you would be fine. But don't say it's Ministry, if it's mellow.

This is the problem with Doom Eternal, and why I have multiple completions of Doom 2016 and have given up on Doom Eternal twice now when I realized I wasn't having fun.

Doom Eternal is a polished, well-thought-out, creative, and visually gorgeous video game. So why the complaint? It doesn't feel like DOOM. It's complicated. The problem is that I think developers sometimes confuse complexity with creativity. You see, the enemies require more planning and precision to kill. You need to use the right weapons and hit the right weak points. The weapon mods and runes and points and whatever else they throw in, requires planning and customization, secrets abound that you are encouraged to look for, and finally there is the challenging platforming aspect- always fun in a FPS. (They only managed to get climbing ladders in FPS a less monitor-smashing exercise a few years ago). While they emphasize "keep moving" to keep the action looking frenetic, the reality is that my mind is constantly engaged in trying to keep track if I need health, so I need to hit E and glory kill, or do I need ammo, so I hit c to chainsaw, or armor so I got to hit r for my flamer, then kill the enemy, but which weapon do I have, which mod is set on it, what enemies are here, what are their weaknesses, does it match my weapon mod, and where do I need to go on this map, can't stop to look what's over the edge because KEEP MOVING, and so on... My mind is definitely engaged- Which is what is WRONG!

As I described above, when I sit down and decide to play Doom, it is because I am in a certain "mood"- a DOOMMOOD if you will. The DOOMMOOD hits when I'm stressed, been doing lots of problem solving, bummed out, etc... I play Doom because I want to kill stuff fast. So when I sat down to play Doom Eternal, that's what I wanted to do. I was just on stage 2, Exultia when I realized I had not really fought that much. But I had spent hours trying to execute dashes and jumps to hard to reach secrets and dying in that stupid ********* lava. It wasn't scratching my Doom itch. And because I was already in a DOOMMOOD, this changed to anger and made me begin to resent and hate the game.

As I reflect now, I think if I had bought a game called The Sentinels, that was described as a challenging platformer, with a story spanning divine and infernal realms, a mysterious hub where you can refine your tools and techniques, and enemies that you dominate by precision application of force combined with knowledge of their weakness, and then played this, I would give it an A+. I would have been in a Portal type mood, or maybe an Ori type mood. But it was called Doom. So I was disappointed. And while I may try to reframe the game in my brain as "The Sentinels" and play it again in another mood, my conclusion will stand that this is a really good Game, but a really disappointing DOOM.

[Sar]

That's not ballet!

[SuperFly]

Oprindeligt skrevet af SuperFly:

IGN literally calls DOOM:Eternal "A ballet with bullets" -- and that quote is used in the official trailer.
When people are calling it 'Dance DOOM Revolution', they aren't saying anything untrue.

The familiar denials are already split at the achilles by this game's own marketing material.
It was a decent game -- but, ultimately, a bad DOOM entry.
It needed another development cycle to perfect it -- not endless spin doctoring to protect it.

Oprindeligt skrevet af SuperFly:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

I don't think they use monkey bars in ballet either.

Pretending 'Cirque De Soliel' and similar musical dance acts don't exist for the sole purpose of saying...anything? Look them up -- there are arts & culture out there worth exploring.

Some usual suspects around the forum seem intent to play pretend when regarding DOOM:Eternal's pronounced problems -- but nobody is buying whatever they're peddling.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

That's not ballet!

I'm sorry... Are you saying that ballet isn't dance?

There would be no logical purpose to make that claim, other than the sole purpose of obfuscating one of DOOM:Eternal's most frequent criticisms from unhappy players,
in my opinion.

[Grampire]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

I don't think they use monkey bars in ballet either.

Correct, ballet definitely doesn't use monkey bars. Amateur hour over at IGN, as usual!

I think we all see where id was going though. I think further dev cycles would have assuredly given the Slayer proper form including arabesques, Pliés, pirouettes and petit sauts.

I feel the double jump is a passable variation of an en seconde (in jump form) but the rest definitely needed more work for this to be considered a "ballet with bullets."

[SuperFly]

Oprindeligt skrevet af furbleburble:

Oprindeligt skrevet af SuperFly:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Spray and Pray:

I found Doom 2016 much more interesting and challenging especially the secrets. Doom Eternal is also fun but sometimes gets monotonous especially the Ancient gods part 2.

The monotonous extremes that constitute DOOM:Eternal's "'combat' loop" are a frequent complaint. It can be very fun, for a little while -- but once the player realizes how restricted they are a micromanaged engagement system -- that gloss wears off!

With DLC proclaiming they are "designed to break you", all they managed was to break the hearts of DOOM fans who were still hanging on after the main campaign..

Oprindeligt skrevet af Spray and Pray:

I'm looking for something with excellent graphics like Doom with a variety of challenging maps and secrets. Nothing out there... COD is getting really long in the tooth.

The brains behind D:E decided to snip out the player's ability to produce their own content (found in D16's SnapMap) -- whether because it would highlight the aforementioned restrictions in its basic playstyle, or concerns of being up-staged, is anyone's true guess.
Levels are meticulously assembled to include arena "loop" paths which the player should utilize for greater success -- and the DLC groan-worthily lean into this.

I have no investment in the COD brand, or much playtime in its titles -- but even I know that the series is now known for its multiplayer component. DOOM has always had a robust mutliplayer side, and literally introduced DM to the world.
In DOOM:Eternals, they shat out a BM and called it a day.
All previous entries involved a myriad of modes and ways for players to combat (or co-operate with) one another. The brains behind D:E apparently believed they knew better.

Your disappointment isn't unfounded, and it doesn't come from a need to "git gud".
Many players feel pretty adamantly that D:E doesn't even really constitute a DOOM game.

There are a lot of words here. They don't say much.

I do write above the national average of an 8th grade reading level.
I definitely did not say "nothing" by elaborating on frequent criticisms of the game. i also addressed some in the thread's keen tendency to claim other players were 'wrong' or had a 'skill issue' when they've articulated their observations to the contrary.

[Jordan_Peterson]

I remember them reporting me because I compared it to DDR.
Now they claim they like it. Weird twist and change of heart but I am not so easily fooled.

Oprindeligt skrevet af SuperFly:

IGN literally calls DOOM:Eternal "A ballet with bullets" -- and that quote is used in the official trailer.
When people are calling it 'Dance DOOM Revolution', they aren't saying anything untrue.

The familiar denials are already split at the achilles by this game's own marketing material.
It was a decent game -- but, ultimately, a bad DOOM entry.
It needed another development cycle to perfect it -- not endless spin doctoring to protect it.

Ok I wasn't aware of that. Nice find!

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

I don't think they use monkey bars in ballet either.

Did not know we have a ballett expert here among us but I think such expertise is not really helping the topic. I at least worked in the gaming industry and studied game design for a bit, which grants me at least a better insight on such matter than the average joe might have.
So yeah we already established, it is a good game but a bad Doom.
Nothing wrong with that.

[Sar]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Jordan Peterson:

I at least worked in the gaming industry and studied game design for a bit, which grants me at least a better insight on such matter than the average joe might have.

Well, I imagine id staff have way more experience in the industry and in game design, which means you (or anyone else on these forums) can’t question their decisions. They have far better insight and experience, after all.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Jordan Peterson:

So yeah we already established, it is a good game but a bad Doom.

I’m pretty sure that we established that Doom Eternal is an abomination of a game and an affront to good taste? Weird of you to suddenly backpedal and call it good. Keep the narrative consistent (unlike Eternal’s narrative LMAO).

[Jordan_Peterson]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Jordan Peterson:

I at least worked in the gaming industry and studied game design for a bit, which grants me at least a better insight on such matter than the average joe might have.

Well, I imagine id staff have way more experience in the industry and in game design, which means you (or anyone else on these forums) can’t question their decisions. They have far better insight and experience, after all.

Let's unpack this a bit, shall we?
The notion that we can't critique id's work because we're not industry veterans is, well, laughable.

Take me, for example—Just because I know my way around game design more than most here, doesn’t mean I’ve got it all figured out or never slip up. Same goes with every other developer out there not matter where he works.

The real issue at hand is delusional fan loyalty.
Some fans are so blinded by their devotion that they can't see the glaring issues right in front of them.
Take Activision or Bethesda as examples—household names with a track record of hits and misses.
Do you really think a big brand like Activision/Blizzard does not hire the most talented game devs and yet their games have such a bad outcome?
What makes you think id is different or does not have even bigger problems when they are as small as just a couple of hundreds people!?
Yeah it is clear, as just a gamer, you lack the expertise here to keep up but that's ok!

Remember we're discussing the work of professionals in a billion-dollar industry, not defending our favorite indie band from high school.
Pretending that every decision made by a developer is beyond reproach is like saying every movie produced by a major studio is a cinematic masterpiece simply because they're well-known. Seen the latest Marvel movie? Judge the talent yourself after watching it.

Let's get real—I'm not saying I design better games in my sleep. But having a clue about game design means I can offer real critiques, not just blind worship. The gaming industry grows from feedback, including mine, because understanding the craft means you've got the insight to see what could be better. Blind fans lack that in many aspects.

And Yes and I stand to my words if not taken out of context!

[Grampire]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

I’m pretty sure that we established that Doom Eternal is an abomination of a game and an affront to good taste? Weird of you to suddenly backpedal and call it good. Keep the narrative consistent (unlike Eternal’s narrative LMAO).

Actually, it's really funny. My Uncle is Marty Stratton and he agrees that Eternal is responsible for a net reduction in US GDP of about .00001%. That's a real, true number regarding how awful Eternal is, and since I took 2 Economics classes in high-school I have some experience in the matter!

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Sar]

Holy crap can you ask him why he had to do Mick Gordon dirty?

[Ace]

Oprindeligt skrevet af SuperFly:

Oprindeligt skrevet af SuperFly:

IGN literally calls DOOM:Eternal "A ballet with bullets" -- and that quote is used in the official trailer.
When people are calling it 'Dance DOOM Revolution', they aren't saying anything untrue.

The familiar denials are already split at the achilles by this game's own marketing material.
It was a decent game -- but, ultimately, a bad DOOM entry.
It needed another development cycle to perfect it -- not endless spin doctoring to protect it.

Oprindeligt skrevet af SuperFly:

Pretending 'Cirque De Soliel' and similar musical dance acts don't exist for the sole purpose of saying...anything? Look them up -- there are arts & culture out there worth exploring.

Some usual suspects around the forum seem intent to play pretend when regarding DOOM:Eternal's pronounced problems -- but nobody is buying whatever they're peddling.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

That's not ballet!

I'm sorry... Are you saying that ballet isn't dance?

There would be no logical purpose to make that claim, other than the sole purpose of obfuscating one of DOOM:Eternal's most frequent criticisms from unhappy players,
in my opinion.

Care to show all of these so called "Unhappy players"? because all we can ever see if you & you certainly don't speak for anyone but yourself.

Saying that you are aware that you can move on with your life instead of parroting misinformation on a forum for a game you hate for 4 years?

[Grampire]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

Holy crap can you ask him why he had to do Mick Gordon dirty?

He said he had no choice because Mick Gordon was stealing too much candy from the break room, and the receptionist said he was making her feel "uncomfortable." I didn't ask for further elaboration, but having some previous experience in HR myself I can tell you those type of issues can get pretty serious!

[Sar]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grampire:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

Holy crap can you ask him why he had to do Mick Gordon dirty?

He said he had no choice because Mick Gordon was stealing too much candy from the break room, and the receptionist said she was making her feel "uncomfortable." I didn't ask for further elaboration, but having some previous experience in HR myself I can tell you those type of issues can get pretty serious!

Oh gosh darn! That seriously challenges the narrative that Mick was mistreated! Hope your uncle releases the security footage of that darn candy-gobbler once everyone forgets about that controversy again!

[Grampire]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grampire:

He said he had no choice because Mick Gordon was stealing too much candy from the break room, and the receptionist said she was making her feel "uncomfortable." I didn't ask for further elaboration, but having some previous experience in HR myself I can tell you those type of issues can get pretty serious!

Oh gosh darn! That seriously challenges the narrative that Mick was mistreated! Hope your uncle releases the security footage of that darn candy-gobbler once everyone forgets about that controversy again!

There is nothing as unforgivable as a candy gobbler. Nothing.

My uncle is a high ranking participant in the Major League Eating (IFOCE), so he knows a thing or two about eating, and he was adamant about how serious this is!

[Sar]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grampire:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

Oh gosh darn! That seriously challenges the narrative that Mick was mistreated! Hope your uncle releases the security footage of that darn candy-gobbler once everyone forgets about that controversy again!

There is nothing as unforgivable as a candy gobbler. Nothing.

My uncle is a high ranking participant in the Major League Eating (IFOCE), so he knows a thing or two about eating, and he was adamant about how serious this is!

We can only hope the guilty party will be brought to justice. We must stand by our values, or all is lost.

[Ace]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Grampire:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Sar:

Oh gosh darn! That seriously challenges the narrative that Mick was mistreated! Hope your uncle releases the security footage of that darn candy-gobbler once everyone forgets about that controversy again!

There is nothing as unforgivable as a candy gobbler. Nothing.

My uncle is a high ranking participant in the Major League Eating (IFOCE), so he knows a thing or two about eating, and he was adamant about how serious this is!

We must alert the towns people at once!