DOOM Community Questions

[MYBUTT]

I’ve been thinking about some questions to ask the DOOM community about some of Eternals mechanics and other things, with my own thoughts thrown in here as well.

Does a lack of a low ammo limit actually make you use only one weapon?

When it comes to the community, I always here this criticism being thrown at DOOM 2016, where because of the lack of an ammo limit, you could just use the SSG and nothing else. I find this criticism weird, cause when I play any other shooter, I always consciously switch to another gun, regardless of how much ammo I have or if that weapon is stronger than another. Whether that be because I’m bored of that gun, or I feel another gun is more useful for the enemy I’m up against. I also think that maybe if there wasn’t an ammo limit, weapon switching would be more of a thing. I do kind of feel the chainsaw is an arbitrary mechanic, and feels more like an excuse for the low ammo limit to exist. Speaking of the chainsaw.


Is resource management really a thing?

In my experience with DOOM Eternal, as long as you’re using the chainsaw, you don’t have to worry about ammo. But what does that mean when people say the game has “resource management?” I don’t really think it exists in DOOM Eternal, cause like I said. As long as you use the chainsaw sometimes, you won’t worry about ammo.


The Fun Zone really a thing?

The fun zone sounds like a buzzword used for marketing, next to “living breathing world.” The problem with the fun zone as a concept, is that what people consider “fun” is completely subjective. People may not find DEs gameplay fun, and that’s ok. Not everyone has to like everything. Honestly Bungies 30 second of fun philosophy sounds more reasonable, because it can apply to a lot of games.

Are combos really legit?

I think the combo stuff is made up by the community. Yes, weapon switching is encouraged, but weapon switching and doing combos are two different things. Weapon switching is more reactionary and is an on the fly decision, something DOOM Eternal tells you in it’s difficulty selection. While combos are more specific, and require you to press buttons at specific times and in a specific order. You don’t really have to be specific with what weapons you need to pull out unless dealing with the marauder or the bosses. Even then, those really don’t require some long string combo like a typical fighting game, cause it’s just one or two weapons.

One final thing to note, is that I don’t think DOOM Eternal is as revolutionary or the pinnacle of FPS design like a lot people think. I think it’s stupid to call DE that, because the FPS genre is one of the most diverse and over saturated to ever exist, fast paced aren’t the only things in it. I also feel people put DE on a non-existent pedestal, and over exaggerate the “skill” required for the game. You can still play it like 2016 on the lower difficulty’s, which I don’t see as a problem, just something to point out.

I like DOOM Eternal, but I don’t want every game being like it. DOOM Eternal is a unique experience, there’s nothing like it. And I’d rather it stay that way.

[Sar]

If you like Doom Eternal, why don’t you want more Eternal-like games?

[MYBUTT]

Originally posted by Sar:

If you like Doom Eternal, why don’t you want more Eternal-like games?

Because I don't think every game should be like DOOM Eternal. The FPS genre is diverse and over saturated, and making every FPS game feel the same from one another would make the genre stale. I don't mind games being inspired and borrowing mechanics from DE, but every game should strive to be it's own experience, and not a clone from one another. That's how Shadow Warrior 3 got a mixed reception.

[Sar]

Originally posted by John Doom:

Are combos really legit?

I think the combo stuff is made up by the community. Yes, weapon switching is encouraged, but weapon switching and doing combos are two different things. Weapon switching is more reactionary and is an on the fly decision, something DOOM Eternal tells you in it’s difficulty selection. While combos are more specific, and require you to press buttons at specific times and in a specific order. You don’t really have to be specific with what weapons you need to pull out unless dealing with the marauder or the bosses. Even then, those really don’t require some long string combo like a typical fighting game, cause it’s just one or two weapons.

Are bunny-hopping or strafe-jumping “legit”, whatever that means? Those techniques are a result of flawed code (much like real weapon combos), they require sometimes pretty precise inputs and can give you massive advantage even in single player. Carmack disliked bunny hopping and wanted to patch it out, but got a ton of hate mail. Nowadays it gets deliberately added and exaggerated in fast paced FPS.

[Smurff-a-thon2k]

Vampire survivors -> people go crazy for it -> 100 other games copied it nearly exactly -> Did every game in existence turn into vampire survivors? Is the next game going to be a top down Doom vampire survivors and no more FPS games ever?

After considering these points, do you think your concerns have any basis in reality?

[Sar]

Originally posted by John Doom:

Originally posted by Sar:

If you like Doom Eternal, why don’t you want more Eternal-like games?

Because I don't think every game should be like DOOM Eternal. The FPS genre is diverse and over saturated, and making every FPS game feel the same from one another would make the genre stale. I don't mind games being inspired and borrowing mechanics from DE, but every game should strive to be it's own experience, and not a clone from one another. That's how Shadow Warrior 3 got a mixed reception.

I agree that the FPS genre is going through its second Golden Age, at least as far as single player gaming is concerned. And it is a very diverse genre. That said, as diverse as it is you can group the games in it in some pretty broad, but still useful groups. How fast is the player’s movement? How fast are monsters? Are the majority of enemies using projectile or melee attacks you are supposed to dodge or are they hitscanners? Are you supposed to regain health by picking up medkits, regenerating lost health or somehow using enemies to your advantage? How many guns can you carry? Etc.

Doom Eternal is a precise combination of answers to those questions. It was one of the first FPS on my mind where you are actively expected to recover most of your resources by being active in combat and using specific tools. 2016 was kinda like that but it didn’t commit to that design. Ultrakill is like that, but different because you don’t use specific tools, you just stay close to enemies and shoot them.

And SW3 is not the only game where you can feel that influence. Turbo Overkill is a game I’m playing right now and it’s fantastic and very much Eternal inspired. It has double dashing and double jumping from the start, and it only escalates from there. Some enemies in it are also obviously Eternal inspired, like shielded shotgunners which explode catastrophically if you hit them with an EMP alt-fire. On highest difficulty you don’t get any medkits or armor except for those which are dropped by enemies or from the melee kills you do with your chainsaw leg. You also got Viscerafest (allegedly), Sprawl etc. Mostly indies, but indie FPS are at a peak right now. Indies can’t copy certain aspects of Eternal, like graphical fidelity, animations or the AI system (probably), like most enemies in Turbo Overkill seem pretty stupid, but that is okay with me.

So when I say I want more games like Eternal, I say I want more “”“boomer shooters””” that don’t just copy old “””boomer shooters””” (which can also be enjoyable, I love Dusk), but more games that give you additional movement mechanics, arena fights and powerful tools to recover resources so you can stay in the fight longer. Those games have every right to exist.

[min3r95]

I disagree with the combos thing, because I call the ssg and the Gauss cannon a combo.
Agree with the rest though, especially the difficulty,it might be harder than 2016 but it's not that hard, doesn't make the gameplay any less enjoyable, they nerfed his normal punch isn't kinda dumb though.
I can't really say I like 2016 or E gunplay more than the other, but I wish E still have the atmospheres and the art direction that 2016 had, and the way they built up tension was so good.
Year one is definitely going to surpass 2016 in those regards, consider they going to make it slower.

[Snipesnippydiznipsnipzipndidip]

Not a lack of Ammo, Eternal forces you to use the right weapon on some Enemies or you will have a harder time making it, leading to the lack of Ammo maybe. And of course, chainsaw.

Combos? Not sure but to me playing with Combos is hard to play with Arrowkeys having the other Keys to far away in a shooter with this speed. Just pressing one Mousebutton to switch back doesnt seem to give the possibilitys to use it to full extend. The Keys you have to press are already on the edge of beeing livable. Rearranging weaponcycle or Slots are very timeconsuming or confusing when you like to have them sorted by damagecapacity, so i cant say thats a thing. I would Skip that statement/question.

Revoltutionary pinnacle? Dont now either, but in terms of going wild there is not much to compare. You can get used to the Speed but i took a break from it, played something else and then bought the Extensions. I was totally overstrained gettin into it again without, lets call it a warmup.

There might be Shooters similar/maybe even quicker, but i try to pick the roisins in terms of overallquality.
You see with these Games nowadays that beeing Entertained by Games is something different, it becomes/needs an other definition when the K.I is getting over what a Human beeing can bring, on possible/given Hardnesslevels

[Jordan_Peterson]

Originally posted by John Doom:

I like DOOM Eternal, but I don’t want every game being like it. DOOM Eternal is a unique experience, there’s nothing like it. And I’d rather it stay that way.

Damn, you are good! Why havent I thought of this before.
Let DE be the Doom for the ones with "weird" standards and kinda very bad taste in video games. No problem with that. Can't have a 1+ game every time, same as not every Fifa or every Call of Duty can be a good one, yet they sell and get praised more and more from year to year thanks to blind fans who much more behave like a cult.

[Ace]

Originally posted by John Doom:

I’ve been thinking about some questions to ask the DOOM community about some of Eternals mechanics and other things, with my own thoughts thrown in here as well.

Does a lack of a low ammo limit actually make you use only one weapon?

When it comes to the community, I always here this criticism being thrown at DOOM 2016, where because of the lack of an ammo limit, you could just use the SSG and nothing else. I find this criticism weird, cause when I play any other shooter, I always consciously switch to another gun, regardless of how much ammo I have or if that weapon is stronger than another. Whether that be because I’m bored of that gun, or I feel another gun is more useful for the enemy I’m up against. I also think that maybe if there wasn’t an ammo limit, weapon switching would be more of a thing. I do kind of feel the chainsaw is an arbitrary mechanic, and feels more like an excuse for the low ammo limit to exist. Speaking of the chainsaw.


Is resource management really a thing?

In my experience with DOOM Eternal, as long as you’re using the chainsaw, you don’t have to worry about ammo. But what does that mean when people say the game has “resource management?” I don’t really think it exists in DOOM Eternal, cause like I said. As long as you use the chainsaw sometimes, you won’t worry about ammo.


The Fun Zone really a thing?

The fun zone sounds like a buzzword used for marketing, next to “living breathing world.” The problem with the fun zone as a concept, is that what people consider “fun” is completely subjective. People may not find DEs gameplay fun, and that’s ok. Not everyone has to like everything. Honestly Bungies 30 second of fun philosophy sounds more reasonable, because it can apply to a lot of games.

Are combos really legit?

I think the combo stuff is made up by the community. Yes, weapon switching is encouraged, but weapon switching and doing combos are two different things. Weapon switching is more reactionary and is an on the fly decision, something DOOM Eternal tells you in it’s difficulty selection. While combos are more specific, and require you to press buttons at specific times and in a specific order. You don’t really have to be specific with what weapons you need to pull out unless dealing with the marauder or the bosses. Even then, those really don’t require some long string combo like a typical fighting game, cause it’s just one or two weapons.

One final thing to note, is that I don’t think DOOM Eternal is as revolutionary or the pinnacle of FPS design like a lot people think. I think it’s stupid to call DE that, because the FPS genre is one of the most diverse and over saturated to ever exist, fast paced aren’t the only things in it. I also feel people put DE on a non-existent pedestal, and over exaggerate the “skill” required for the game. You can still play it like 2016 on the lower difficulty’s, which I don’t see as a problem, just something to point out.

I like DOOM Eternal, but I don’t want every game being like it. DOOM Eternal is a unique experience, there’s nothing like it. And I’d rather it stay that way.

Does a lack of a low ammo limit actually make you use only one weapon? No this is proven false easily, you're encouraged to use the chainsaw but there are multiple ways of getting ammo back quickly, the game has unlimited ammo, you just can't carry as much.

Is resource management really a thing? Resource management is in every game in some way shape or form, in eternal you do what you did in 2016 with glory kills giving you health & chainsaw giving you ammo, only difference now is that you can use the flame belch to get your armour back, you can combine these with say glory kills & other methods to get all of your resources back in one go & it feels great when you do during the fighting, hence the phrase push forward combat.

The Fun Zone really a thing? It is but it's described more towards when the player figures out the combat loops & executes it, pretty weird way of calling it but it works.

Are combos really legit? They are indeed but are optional. When you learn them you gain a whole new skill set & will be killing faster & more precise, you can start with just a basic SSG + balista swap as this is the most common, if this is not your cup of tea, the weapon wheel should be fine.

[MYBUTT]

Originally posted by Sar:

Originally posted by John Doom:

Because I don't think every game should be like DOOM Eternal. The FPS genre is diverse and over saturated, and making every FPS game feel the same from one another would make the genre stale. I don't mind games being inspired and borrowing mechanics from DE, but every game should strive to be it's own experience, and not a clone from one another. That's how Shadow Warrior 3 got a mixed reception.

I agree that the FPS genre is going through its second Golden Age, at least as far as single player gaming is concerned. And it is a very diverse genre. That said, as diverse as it is you can group the games in it in some pretty broad, but still useful groups. How fast is the player’s movement? How fast are monsters? Are the majority of enemies using projectile or melee attacks you are supposed to dodge or are they hitscanners? Are you supposed to regain health by picking up medkits, regenerating lost health or somehow using enemies to your advantage? How many guns can you carry? Etc.

Doom Eternal is a precise combination of answers to those questions. It was one of the first FPS on my mind where you are actively expected to recover most of your resources by being active in combat and using specific tools. 2016 was kinda like that but it didn’t commit to that design. Ultrakill is like that, but different because you don’t use specific tools, you just stay close to enemies and shoot them.

And SW3 is not the only game where you can feel that influence. Turbo Overkill is a game I’m playing right now and it’s fantastic and very much Eternal inspired. It has double dashing and double jumping from the start, and it only escalates from there. Some enemies in it are also obviously Eternal inspired, like shielded shotgun era which explode catastrophically if you hit them with an EMP alt-fire. On highest difficulty you don’t get any medkits or armor except for those which are dropped by enemies or from the melee kills you do with your chainsaw leg. You also got Viscerafest (allegedly), Sprawl etc. Mostly indies, but indie FPS are at a peak right now. Indies can’t copy certain aspects of Eternal, like graphical fidelity, animations or the AI system (probably), like most enemies in Turbo Overkill seem pretty stupid, but that is okay with me.

So when I say I want more games like Eternal, I say I want more “”“boomer shooters””” that don’t just copy old “””boomer shooters””” (which can also be enjoyable, I love Dusk), but more games that give you additional movement mechanics, arena fights and powerful tools to recover resources so you can stay in the fight longer. Those games have every right to exist.

That is true. I do really like Turbo Overkill.

[chester]

Does a lack of a low ammo limit actually make you use only one weapon?
It depends. I don't think ammo limits alone are enough to promote weapon variety. Enemy specific weaknesses are much more important imo. Using Doom 2016 specifically as an example, the problem with that game is that there was no such thing as enemy specific weaknesses. Every tactic worked on every enemy with few exceptions. Combine that with the nonexistant weapon balance/high ammo limit and yeah, I generally won't bother to use more than half of my arsenal. If Doom Eternal had unlimited ammo then it would have little impact on how I play, because each weapon has a strong purpose and the game has pushed me into using them through means other than limited ammo. Which is a good segway to your next question:

Is resource management really a thing? As far as ammo management, no not really. If you're using the chainsaw regularly and aren't playing dumb (spamming multiple lock on bursts on a single enemy, never switching weapons at all, etc), then you'll never run out of ammo. I chew through ammo incredibly fast yet rarely find myself running out of a single ammo type. The "resource management" (I've never been a huge fan of that term for this game, it's more fitting for stuff like survival horror) is mostly referring to your ability to restack in the middle of a fight. Seeing a big group of enemies while you're low on health, freezing them, lighting them on fire, and blowing them up for an instant restack is what this game is all about, and I think it plays a big role in why so many people find this game revolutionary.

The Fun Zone really a thing?
It's definitely a buzzword, but the concept behind it is simple and can be found in most games. It's essentially keeping the player in a state of constant engagement with the game through actively requiring them to make decisions in the moment. Doom Eternal always has you thinking about which weapons to use for which situation, which enemies to prioritize, when to use your equipment, how to restack effectively, etc. You're actively making tons of decisions during each big fight, even if it's only subconsciously. It's far from a new concept, it just so happens that Doom Eternal brought a lot of attention to it.

Are combos really legit?
They definitely are. https://youtu.be/rzmStaetFVo?feature=shared stuff like this is extremely high execution, and it's absurd to claim it isn't a combo. Funnily enough, I've been learning SF6 (my first fighting game) recently and trying to learn motion input combos feels almost identical to how learning quickswap combos felt in this game.

Personally, I think all the praise this game receives is warranted. It feels like the proper evolution to the fast paced shooters from the 90s that we never got, and I have a hard time going back to those games now. Needing to disengage from combat to look for pickups or play cautiously when my health or ammo is low is such a pace killer, as opposed to being able to restack seamlessly in the middle of a fight by killing enemies. I don't think enough shooters are taking inspiration from Doom Eternal's systems. I want to see more unique takes on this self sufficient combat style where you regain resources from combat rather than pickups.

Also, Turbo Overkill is phenomenal. Best indie shooter on the market by a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mile and I recommend it to anyone reading this.

[chester]

Originally posted by Sar:

So when I say I want more games like Eternal, I say I want more “”“boomer shooters””” that don’t just copy old “””boomer shooters””” (which can also be enjoyable, I love Dusk), but more games that give you additional movement mechanics, arena fights and powerful tools to recover resources so you can stay in the fight longer. Those games have every right to exist.

This is exactly what we need more of. I see tons of people say that this subgenre is getting stale, but that's only because of how many games make little or no effort to innovate. There's an insane amount of untapped potential in this subgenre, and only a handful of games seem to be truly capitalizing on it.

We need less games like Boltgun, and more games like Turbo Overkill.