Game is dead.

[senate]

We knew it. Side scrolling gimicks and puzzles never belonged in a Doom game. They should of made another 2019 in a different part of hell or something. Hell is such an underrated settings in video games.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Grampire:

What's the point here?

That slaughter maps take lots of skill to play like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdda0DuFvM

Yeah, no ♥♥♥♥.

What relevance does that have on anything? That someone made some hard ♥♥♥♥ for a Megawad slaughter map that took ZeroMaster almost 3 hours to clear on a no-hit run?

It's impressive, but exactly .0000000000001% of anyone who ever played any game called Doom at all will play any game, ever made, at any time in that way, or in any way even remotely like that. A relative percentage of Doom players will never, ever play classic Doom that way either. Thus, saying it's a template for how Doom games should be designed - or any well made game that's intended for the general population to enjoy - is paramount insanity and the absolute definition of a bad faith argument.

Using stuff like this to make a point? I could use slaughter maps to bash the original games they're made for just as easily, because most of the ♥♥♥♥ you need to understand to play a slaughter map never even factors into the main game.

You're sitting here complaining about straw men like you understand rhetorical fallacy when your entire premise is one massive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ straw man.

Seriously - get real. Get as real as you can dude. You haven't proven anything other than that you've missed the point so incomprehensibly hard that you don't even know where to begin to make an argument that's even remotely cohesive.

The point from the very beginning was that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal. I also love the fact that you specifically zeroed in on Okuplok, which can be considered as an extreme example, a fringe map that not even a lot of slaughter enthusiasts find fun, however despite Okuplok being such a major outlier and extreme example, that still didn't stop the first ever saveless non-TAS run from being done very recently, with UV still being a possibility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PP6iqrgIM8

Things like this only prove even further my point that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal, the fact that even extreme fringe maps like Okuplok are being completed single segment UV-Max non-TAS proves that Classic Doom has a way higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

"We" are not referring to the base games, YOU are referring to the base games. The reason why you don't want to include community made content from Doom Eternal and Classic Doom is because if you did your entire argument would be destroyed in an instant

"I did stream the base games not to long ago on UV, but no not the custom wads as they don't count :)"

We know you didn't stream any custom WADs lol, you would get embarrassed if you tried, and above all it would prove that Classic Doom doesn't boil down to the things that you say it does

No no the reason i don't include them is because they are not a fair representation of the game & thus do not count, do you understand now?

I would include custom content from doom eternal (Randomizer & infinite arena) off the top of my head but seeing as it's custom content it won't count, it's like trying to compare a regular run of nightmare to something like kaiser campaign.

Actually ive streamed the following custom content for all doom games

Doom 1 & 2 on UV
Doom 3 Ultimate HD on veteran
Eviternity
Back to saturn x ep 1 & 2
Sunlust
Breakpoint
Proteh's randomizer
Infinite arena
UN runs of base campaign DLC 1 & DLC 2

:The_Slayer:

They are a representation of the game lol, they are intrinsically part of the game

Also, do you have the VOD of you playing Sunlust for example?

[Ace]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Grampire:

What's the point here?

That slaughter maps take lots of skill to play like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdda0DuFvM

Yeah, no ♥♥♥♥.

What relevance does that have on anything? That someone made some hard ♥♥♥♥ for a Megawad slaughter map that took ZeroMaster almost 3 hours to clear on a no-hit run?

It's impressive, but exactly .0000000000001% of anyone who ever played any game called Doom at all will play any game, ever made, at any time in that way, or in any way even remotely like that. A relative percentage of Doom players will never, ever play classic Doom that way either. Thus, saying it's a template for how Doom games should be designed - or any well made game that's intended for the general population to enjoy - is paramount insanity and the absolute definition of a bad faith argument.

Using stuff like this to make a point? I could use slaughter maps to bash the original games they're made for just as easily, because most of the ♥♥♥♥ you need to understand to play a slaughter map never even factors into the main game.

You're sitting here complaining about straw men like you understand rhetorical fallacy when your entire premise is one massive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ straw man.

Seriously - get real. Get as real as you can dude. You haven't proven anything other than that you've missed the point so incomprehensibly hard that you don't even know where to begin to make an argument that's even remotely cohesive.

The point from the very beginning was that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal. I also love the fact that you specifically zeroed in on Okuplok, which can be considered as an extreme example, a fringe map that not even a lot of slaughter enthusiasts find fun, however despite Okuplok being such a major outlier and extreme example, that still didn't stop the first ever saveless non-TAS run from being done very recently, with UV still being a possibility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PP6iqrgIM8

Things like this only prove even further my point that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal, the fact that even extreme fringe maps like Okuplok are being completed single segment UV-Max non-TAS proves that Classic Doom has a way higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal.

Except it really really does not, walking around in a circle watching the demons fight each other hardly counts as skill. I prefer to do the fighting myself, just me though, unless of course spamming rockets & bfg rounds while circle strafing counts as skill? i highly don't think it does to be honest.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

The point from the very beginning was that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal. I also love the fact that you specifically zeroed in on Okuplok, which can be considered as an extreme example, a fringe map that not even a lot of slaughter enthusiasts find fun, however despite Okuplok being such a major outlier and extreme example, that still didn't stop the first ever saveless non-TAS run from being done very recently, with UV still being a possibility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PP6iqrgIM8

Things like this only prove even further my point that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal, the fact that even extreme fringe maps like Okuplok are being completed single segment UV-Max non-TAS proves that Classic Doom has a way higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal.

Except it really really does not, walking around in a circle watching the demons fight each other hardly counts as skill. I prefer to do the fighting myself, just me though, unless of course spamming rockets & bfg rounds while circle strafing counts as skill? i highly don't think it does to be honest.

If that's not skillfull, then

Do.

It.

You do a single segment non-TAS run of Okuplok then if you apparently think it's "non-skillfull"

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kyller92 AKA Cinos:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

I never said I was comparing community maps with the base game, I was comparing the hardest community made gameplay in Classic Doom with the hardest community made gameplay in Doom Eternal.

Doom Eternal fans try to go 0.0001 seconds without making a strawman fallacy challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

Most of the comments here kinda proved that your message wasn't clear so... yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And even then, this still doesn't prove anything or change anything to what I wrote either. You'll still always be able to make an harder mod, regardless of the game. And the skill ceiling is irrelevant in this situation.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

"Just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area"

But that's not what creates the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ difficulty, I can put 1000 revenants in an open ass field and it wouldn't be difficult at all

"Just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area is what slaughter maps are at their core"

LOL. Simply having lots of enemies doesn't make something a slaughter map. Slaughter maps are about manipulating the enemy AI. It's about positioning, timing, and corralling the AI to act in certain ways. It's about herding and managing a large number of uncooperative AI in a way so that killing them becomes viable. Slaughter gameplay is a combat puzzle that requires precise movements, spacial management, and sometimes infighting in order to deal with a large group of enemies that would otherwise be absurdly difficult to kill. It's about knowing how the game works and using it to your advantage

Wow :squirtheh:
First, simply having lots of enemies indeed make something a slaughter map. Whether or not it makes a good slaughter map is another story. If you put 1000 revenants in an open field, it will indeed not be difficult at all but it's still a slaughter map.

Also, that's a lot of words to say something that could be applied to most Doom-likes made before 2000 and not even in slaughter maps. And funnily enough, outside of infighting I admit, every thing listed here can be applied to Eternal either.

In short, good job, you basically just described a classic FPS. :ridden_thumbsup:

What's even more funny is that I was agreeing with the fact that the skill ceiling in Classic Doom was actually higher than Eternal :claugh:
But I disagree with the examples. Again, if you can finish Sunder UV Saveless, you already have reached the ceiling needed to beat most slaughter maps. From here, even while trying Okuplok for example, you won't acquire any new skill.

And, to reuse an example, I'd argue you learn much more about the intricacies of Classic Doom by playing something like Frog and Toad than Okuplok. The first one really requires you to know the game, while the second "just" requires you to know the map.

What I mean when I say skill ceiling is that the amount of skill that is required to beat the hardest things that Classic Doom has to offer is higher than the amount of skill that is required to beat the hardest things that Doom Eternal has to offer

[Ace]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Kyller92 AKA Cinos:

Most of the comments here kinda proved that your message wasn't clear so... yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And even then, this still doesn't prove anything or change anything to what I wrote either. You'll still always be able to make an harder mod, regardless of the game. And the skill ceiling is irrelevant in this situation.




Wow :squirtheh:
First, simply having lots of enemies indeed make something a slaughter map. Whether or not it makes a good slaughter map is another story. If you put 1000 revenants in an open field, it will indeed not be difficult at all but it's still a slaughter map.

Also, that's a lot of words to say something that could be applied to most Doom-likes made before 2000 and not even in slaughter maps. And funnily enough, outside of infighting I admit, every thing listed here can be applied to Eternal either.

In short, good job, you basically just described a classic FPS. :ridden_thumbsup:

What's even more funny is that I was agreeing with the fact that the skill ceiling in Classic Doom was actually higher than Eternal :claugh:
But I disagree with the examples. Again, if you can finish Sunder UV Saveless, you already have reached the ceiling needed to beat most slaughter maps. From here, even while trying Okuplok for example, you won't acquire any new skill.

And, to reuse an example, I'd argue you learn much more about the intricacies of Classic Doom by playing something like Frog and Toad than Okuplok. The first one really requires you to know the game, while the second "just" requires you to know the map.

What I mean when I say skill ceiling is that the amount of skill that is required to beat the hardest things that Classic Doom has to offer is higher than the amount of skill that is required to beat the hardest things that Doom Eternal has to offer

It's really not though considering that doom eternal demands more from the player to beat it & the classics demands alot less.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

What I mean when I say skill ceiling is that the amount of skill that is required to beat the hardest things that Classic Doom has to offer is higher than the amount of skill that is required to beat the hardest things that Doom Eternal has to offer

It's really not though considering that doom eternal demands more from the player to beat it & the classics demands alot less.

Not true

[Ace]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

It's really not though considering that doom eternal demands more from the player to beat it & the classics demands alot less.

Not true

I mean it is true but i appreciate the compelling argument there.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Not true

I mean it is true but i appreciate the compelling argument there.

Nice hypocrisy. You just said the same thing in your post that you said several posts ago that I already addressed and responded to but ok

[Ace]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

I mean it is true but i appreciate the compelling argument there.

Nice hypocrisy. You just said the same thing in your post that you said several posts ago that I already addressed and responded to but ok

I had to make sure that you understood it as you seem to have a habit of ignoring facts & making up arguments that are far from cohesive.

[terezifromhomesuck]

"puzzles never belonged in a doom game" what? did you even play the other dooms? you know, the classic dooms with keys and backtracking puzzles, or 64 in particular which relied heavily on puzzles to combat the limited map size, or perhaps the 2016 you love so dearly with it's rune trials, secret collectibles, and rewards you for going out and finding secrets by giving you weapons early. I'm sorry that you never played the other dooms and are under the impression it's just raw demon slaying, because it never has been, and if anything eternal is the least puzzle heavy out of anything. Respectfully, this is ragebait, because you don't know what you are talking about.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Nice hypocrisy. You just said the same thing in your post that you said several posts ago that I already addressed and responded to but ok

I had to make sure that you understood it as you seem to have a habit of ignoring facts & making up arguments that are far from cohesive.

Irony, considering you deliberately ignore people's arguments and continue to regurgitate the same things over and over again no matter how many times people address them

[Grampire]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Grampire:

What's the point here?

That slaughter maps take lots of skill to play like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdda0DuFvM

Yeah, no ♥♥♥♥.

What relevance does that have on anything? That someone made some hard ♥♥♥♥ for a Megawad slaughter map that took ZeroMaster almost 3 hours to clear on a no-hit run?

It's impressive, but exactly .0000000000001% of anyone who ever played any game called Doom at all will play any game, ever made, at any time in that way, or in any way even remotely like that. A relative percentage of Doom players will never, ever play classic Doom that way either. Thus, saying it's a template for how Doom games should be designed - or any well made game that's intended for the general population to enjoy - is paramount insanity and the absolute definition of a bad faith argument.

Using stuff like this to make a point? I could use slaughter maps to bash the original games they're made for just as easily, because most of the ♥♥♥♥ you need to understand to play a slaughter map never even factors into the main game.

You're sitting here complaining about straw men like you understand rhetorical fallacy when your entire premise is one massive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ straw man.

Seriously - get real. Get as real as you can dude. You haven't proven anything other than that you've missed the point so incomprehensibly hard that you don't even know where to begin to make an argument that's even remotely cohesive.

The point from the very beginning was that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal. I also love the fact that you specifically zeroed in on Okuplok, which can be considered as an extreme example, a fringe map that not even a lot of slaughter enthusiasts find fun, however despite Okuplok being such a major outlier and extreme example, that still didn't stop the first ever saveless non-TAS run from being done very recently, with UV still being a possibility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PP6iqrgIM8

Things like this only prove even further my point that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal, the fact that even extreme fringe maps like Okuplok are being completed single segment UV-Max non-TAS proves that Classic Doom has a way higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal.

Nice - so this is the part where you show us your saveless non-TAS run of Okuplok. Wait, what? Since you're not ZeroMaster, you don't have one?

I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thought not.

Because "skill ceiling" means ♥♥♥♥ to 99.999999999999999% of the people who'll play either game. Most (read: nearly all) people will never touch ZeroMaster's level or even a fraction of it - most wouldn't even want to put in the effort to. Most people aren't going to touch mods for Eternal. The skill ceiling in either of these games is more than high enough for the same percentage of people.

So congrats on proving that there are some people do insane things with video games - an argument that applies to no one in this thread and way more games than either of the ones being discussed here.

Anyone can fight their way through a slaughter map if they want. Will they enjoy 3 hours of that as much as they'll enjoy a 20 minute randomizer mod in Eternal? No part of "skill ceiling" determines that - nor does it speak to how well either game is made or whether either achieves what they set out to do.

So again, congrats I guess on proving something that applies to almost no one. I'm sorry you're too busy gatekeeping to realize that.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Grampire:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

The point from the very beginning was that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal. I also love the fact that you specifically zeroed in on Okuplok, which can be considered as an extreme example, a fringe map that not even a lot of slaughter enthusiasts find fun, however despite Okuplok being such a major outlier and extreme example, that still didn't stop the first ever saveless non-TAS run from being done very recently, with UV still being a possibility:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4PP6iqrgIM8

Things like this only prove even further my point that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal, the fact that even extreme fringe maps like Okuplok are being completed single segment UV-Max non-TAS proves that Classic Doom has a way higher skill ceiling than Doom Eternal.

Nice - so this is the part where you show us your saveless non-TAS run of Okuplok. Wait, what? Since you're not ZeroMaster, you don't have one?

I ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ thought not.

Because "skill ceiling" means ♥♥♥♥ to 99.999999999999999% of the people who'll play either game. Most (read: nearly all) people will never touch ZeroMaster's level or even a fraction of it - most wouldn't even want to put in the effort to. Most people aren't going to touch mods for Eternal. The skill ceiling in either of these games is more than high enough for the same percentage of people.

So congrats on proving that there are some people do insane things with video games - an argument that applies to no one in this thread and way more games than either of the ones being discussed here.

Anyone can fight their way through a slaughter map if they want. Will they enjoy 3 hours of that as much as they'll enjoy a 20 minute randomizer mod in Eternal? No part of "skill ceiling" determines that - nor does it speak to how well either game is made or whether either achieves what they set out to do.

So congrats I guess on proving something that applies to almost no one. I'm sorry you're too busy gatekeeping to realize that.

-If only a very small percentage of the playerbase is able to achieve certain things, doesn't that just prove that the skill ceiling is higher? lol???? If the skill ceiling for a game was very low then you would see a lot of players playing at the highest levels

-Someone earlier in the thread said Classic Doom is "less skillfull" than Doom Eternal and that's what I'm arguing against lol

-I never said anything about well-made either game is lol, I was just arguing about which game has a higher skill ceiling. Nice strawman fallacy though, lots of those going around

[Ace]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ace:

I had to make sure that you understood it as you seem to have a habit of ignoring facts & making up arguments that are far from cohesive.

Irony, considering you deliberately ignore people's arguments and continue to regurgitate the same things over and over again no matter how many times people address them

You know you are allowed to come up with your own arguments, you don't need to copy other peoples. You've said you're arguments & they have been proven to be incorrect using facts, custom content does not count towards the "skill" you seem to think is a thing in the classic games as it does not represent the base game & circle strafing spamming the BFG & rockets is not a skill.