Game is dead.

[senate]

We knew it. Side scrolling gimicks and puzzles never belonged in a Doom game. They should of made another 2019 in a different part of hell or something. Hell is such an underrated settings in video games.

[Ace]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Originalmente postado por Ace:

If by original you mean a more colourful & less skillful game then sure we should do that

If you genuinely think Classic Doom is less skillful than Doom Eternal then you're truly just a blind Doom Eternal fanboy/fangirl

The skill ceiling for Classic Doom is infinitely higher than the skill ceiling of Doom Eternal will ever be. Go try and beat maps like Sunder Map 16, Map 17, and Map 19 saveless on UV, or try to do something like Dimensions, or what about Profane Promiseland? Or what about Okuplok? Or what about Italo Doom? Or what about No Chance? Or what about just something like God Machine from Sunlust?

If you think trying to beat any of those things that I listed saveless on UV is even remotely comparable to anything in Doom Eternal then you're just delusional

There's no doubt there's a level of skill in the classics but D:E demands more from you, way more & requires more skill, also custom wads like sunlust hardly count as they are just chucking thousands of demons at you in a single map, were as were talking about the base game.

[Ace]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Originalmente postado por Kyller92 AKA Cinos:

using hard mods and asking to do saveless UV absolutely do not prove anything.

It proves that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling? lol? Also UV saveless is pretty much the Classic Doom equivalent of Ultra-Nightmare, UV with saves would be the equivalent of playing Doom Eternal on Nightmare with checkpoints

Originalmente postado por Kyller92 AKA Cinos:

And even then, I'd argue that just spamming thousands of enemies isn't really about "skill", just memorization.

You obviously don’t know anything about Classic Doom if you think the number of enemies is the primary and/or sole factor in what makes a fight difficult.

Also what do you mean by “It’s not about skill, it’s about memorization”? That literally makes no sense.

So basically what you’re saying is, if I want to do a UV saveless run of Sunder map 19 for example, I don’t need skill, I just need to memorize it? Wtf does that even mean? You can say the same weird ass statement for Doom Eternal: “If you want to beat Doom Eternal on Ultra-Nightmare, you don’t need skill, you just need to memorize it”, once again, whatever that even means

UV is nothing like ultra nightmare bud in UV you just restart the map with a pistol in UN you restart the enitire game, kinda a silly point to make really.

I wonder which takes more to learn & master:

D:E:
- Managing your armor, ammo & health & ammo by using all your tools.
- Using weapon combos to maximise your damage output.
- Having to use your mobility to stay moving & airbourne because the demons can kill you
even faster than in classic.
- Using your icebomb & grenades to stagger & freeze demons to create advantages.

Classics:
- Pick the demon that's the biggest threat - spam with rockets.
- Stun lock at close range with the plasma.
- Memorization of were demons spawn on the map
- Spam super shotgun

[Grampire]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Originalmente postado por Ace:

If by original you mean a more colourful & less skillful game then sure we should do that

If you genuinely think Classic Doom is less skillful than Doom Eternal then you're truly just a blind Doom Eternal fanboy/fangirl

The skill ceiling for Classic Doom is infinitely higher than the skill ceiling of Doom Eternal will ever be. Go try and beat maps like Sunder Map 16, Map 17, and Map 19 saveless on UV, or try to do something like Dimensions, or what about Profane Promiseland? Or what about Okuplok? Or what about Italo Doom? Or what about No Chance? Or what about just something like God Machine from Sunlust?

If you think trying to beat any of those things that I listed saveless on UV is even remotely comparable to anything in Doom Eternal then you're just delusional

I too like to compare modded games to unmodded games as though it's not a false equivalent.

Let me raise my glass and ask you to carry on good sir.

[Sar]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Originalmente postado por Ace:

If by original you mean a more colourful & less skillful game then sure we should do that

If you genuinely think Classic Doom is less skillful than Doom Eternal then you're truly just a blind Doom Eternal fanboy/fangirl

The skill ceiling for Classic Doom is infinitely higher than the skill ceiling of Doom Eternal will ever be. Go try and beat maps like Sunder Map 16, Map 17, and Map 19 saveless on UV, or try to do something like Dimensions, or what about Profane Promiseland? Or what about Okuplok? Or what about Italo Doom? Or what about No Chance? Or what about just something like God Machine from Sunlust?

If you think trying to beat any of those things that I listed saveless on UV is even remotely comparable to anything in Doom Eternal then you're just delusional

I have no idea which game has a higher skill ceiling, DE or D2, nor do I care. That said, comparing modded D2 content to vanilla DE is very unfair.

Which one is harder, DE UN (+Master Levels) or D2 Nightmare? Keep in mind that avoiding saving your game and pistol starting are self-imposed challenges.

Edit: look up UAC Antarctica CBT edition on YouTube. Or actually download and try to play it. I know I wouldn’t last ten seconds in that level lol.

[DM]

Originalmente postado por senate:

We knew it. Side scrolling gimicks and puzzles never belonged in a Doom game. They should of made another 2019 in a different part of hell or something. Hell is such an underrated settings in video games.

Bit late to the party dude! Oh and whilst we're here, the Titanic sank too...

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Originalmente postado por Ace:

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

If you genuinely think Classic Doom is less skillful than Doom Eternal then you're truly just a blind Doom Eternal fanboy/fangirl

The skill ceiling for Classic Doom is infinitely higher than the skill ceiling of Doom Eternal will ever be. Go try and beat maps like Sunder Map 16, Map 17, and Map 19 saveless on UV, or try to do something like Dimensions, or what about Profane Promiseland? Or what about Okuplok? Or what about Italo Doom? Or what about No Chance? Or what about just something like God Machine from Sunlust?

If you think trying to beat any of those things that I listed saveless on UV is even remotely comparable to anything in Doom Eternal then you're just delusional

There's no doubt there's a level of skill in the classics but D:E demands more from you, way more & requires more skill, also custom wads like sunlust hardly count as they are just chucking thousands of demons at you in a single map, were as were talking about the base game.

"D:E demands more from you, way more & requires more skill"

No it doesn't lol, the hardest things that Doom Eternal has to offer pales in comparison to the hardest things that Classic Doom has to offer

"custom wads like sunlust hardly count as they are just chucking thousands of demons at you in a single map, were talking about the base game"

Why don't community made maps count lol? Just because the maps aren't made by the developers of the game, that doesn't mean that it's not still the same game, it's still Doom. It's still the same game mechanics, same engine, same everything. It seems to be like you're purposely trying to cherry pick/exclude certain elements that would help your "Doom Eternal superior" narrative. Community made master levels and other maps for Doom Eternal are still Doom Eternal, it's still the exact same game, it doesn't matter if the maps are made by the community or not. If you want to talk about the difficulty/skill ceiling of a game, then you need to take into account the hardest things that a player can do in that game, and for that you have to include community created content, which both Doom Eternal and Classic Doom have

Also, I find the sentence "wads like sunlust are just chucking thousands of demons at you in a single map" to be hilarious

First of all, the number of enemies is not even remotely the primary factor in what makes something difficult, and second of all, have you ever even played Sunlust lol? There's only 2 maps in the entire 32 map WAD that have over 1000 enemies, literally 90% of the maps in the WAD have 100-200 enemies LMAO

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Originalmente postado por Ace:

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

It proves that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling? lol? Also UV saveless is pretty much the Classic Doom equivalent of Ultra-Nightmare, UV with saves would be the equivalent of playing Doom Eternal on Nightmare with checkpoints





You obviously don’t know anything about Classic Doom if you think the number of enemies is the primary and/or sole factor in what makes a fight difficult.

Also what do you mean by “It’s not about skill, it’s about memorization”? That literally makes no sense.

So basically what you’re saying is, if I want to do a UV saveless run of Sunder map 19 for example, I don’t need skill, I just need to memorize it? Wtf does that even mean? You can say the same weird ass statement for Doom Eternal: “If you want to beat Doom Eternal on Ultra-Nightmare, you don’t need skill, you just need to memorize it”, once again, whatever that even means

Classics:
- Pick the demon that's the biggest threat - spam with rockets.
- Stun lock at close range with the plasma.
- Memorization of were demons spawn on the map
- Spam super shotgun

If you genuinely think this is what Classic Doom boils down to then you gotta be trolling. If you genuinely think it's that easy however, please livestream yourself trying to beat some hard maps from Sunder, Sunlust, Flotsam, or any other difficult maps, livestream or record yourself trying to beat them and we'll all watch. Of course we know you probably won't actually do that because you don't want to embarrass yourself any further than you already are

Also I don't know why you keep bringing up "memorization". You do realize Doom Eternal also has fixed demon spawns right?

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Originalmente postado por Sar:

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

If you genuinely think Classic Doom is less skillful than Doom Eternal then you're truly just a blind Doom Eternal fanboy/fangirl

The skill ceiling for Classic Doom is infinitely higher than the skill ceiling of Doom Eternal will ever be. Go try and beat maps like Sunder Map 16, Map 17, and Map 19 saveless on UV, or try to do something like Dimensions, or what about Profane Promiseland? Or what about Okuplok? Or what about Italo Doom? Or what about No Chance? Or what about just something like God Machine from Sunlust?

If you think trying to beat any of those things that I listed saveless on UV is even remotely comparable to anything in Doom Eternal then you're just delusional

I have no idea which game has a higher skill ceiling, DE or D2, nor do I care. That said, comparing modded D2 content to vanilla DE is very unfair.

Which one is harder, DE UN (+Master Levels) or D2 Nightmare? Keep in mind that avoiding saving your game and pistol starting are self-imposed challenges.

Edit: look up UAC Antarctica CBT edition on YouTube. Or actually download and try to play it. I know I wouldn’t last ten seconds in that level lol.

When tf did I say I was comparing it to unmodded DE? You know DE also has mods and community made gameplay experiences right? I'm comparing the hardest community made gameplay in Classic Doom to the hardest community made gameplay in Doom Eternal. Nice strawman fallacy though

Also I never even mentioned pistol starting. Pistol starting barely even matters, whether you play pistol start or continuous, the level is still pretty much going to be roughly the same difficulty, playing continuous doesn't automatically make the level a cake walk, if it's a really difficult level it's still going to be really difficult whether you pistol start it or not, the difference in difficulty is negligible

"Avoiding saving your game is a self-imposed challenge"

So is playing on ultra-nightmare instead of nightmare? If you play with checkpoints and you're able to just keep trying a part on a level over and over again an infinite amount of times until you beat it then where does skill even come into play? Doing runs saveless is also the standard for submitting demos because if you're allowed to save wherever and whenever you want then there's no point

[Kyller92 AKA Cinos]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

It proves that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling? lol? Also UV saveless is pretty much the Classic Doom equivalent of Ultra-Nightmare, UV with saves would be the equivalent of playing Doom Eternal on Nightmare with checkpoints

No, you can't compare difficult mods with the base campaign of a game, because those are two different types of content. By this logic, I could say Eternal has an higher skill ceiling because finishing the Kaiser Campaign Mod without dying is much harder than every level in The Ultimate Doom.

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

You obviously don’t know anything about Classic Doom if you think the number of enemies is the primary and/or sole factor in what makes a fight difficult.

Also what do you mean by “It’s not about skill, it’s about memorization”? That literally makes no sense.

So basically what you’re saying is, if I want to do a UV saveless run of Sunder map 19 for example, I don’t need skill, I just need to memorize it? Wtf does that even mean? You can say the same weird ass statement for Doom Eternal: “If you want to beat Doom Eternal on Ultra-Nightmare, you don’t need skill, you just need to memorize it”, once again, whatever that even means

Without trying to be rude, I'd just argue that you have simply a very surface-level comprehension of what Classic Doom is.

Yes, enemies aren't the sole factor in general.
However, in every examples you cited, it's indeed the case. And Sunder MAP 19 is actually one of the best example, actually, even Sunder in general is exactly that, just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area.
That's simply what a slaughter maps are at their core. And the only way to make its harder is by going to borderline unfair territories (like Italo Doom) or just by adding tons of enemies in absurd quantities (like Okupluk or each new release of Sunder).

It doesn't mean no skill is required to beat those. But they don't prove that the skill ceiling is higher, it just proves that by adding more enemies, you can always make an harder level which is a different thing.
I'd argue that someone that can beat Sunder M19 in UV saveless has already the skill needed to beat most (if not every) slaughter maps and, from here, that they only need to memorize the following maps to succeed at them.

However, put them in front of Frog and Toad and suddenly, this will be a different story.

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Originalmente postado por Kyller92 AKA Cinos:

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

It proves that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling? lol? Also UV saveless is pretty much the Classic Doom equivalent of Ultra-Nightmare, UV with saves would be the equivalent of playing Doom Eternal on Nightmare with checkpoints

No, you can't compare difficult mods with the base campaign of a game, because those are two different types of content. By this logic, I could say Eternal has an higher skill ceiling because finishing the Kaiser Campaign Mod without dying is much harder than every level in The Ultimate Doom.

I never said I was comparing community maps with the base game, I was comparing the hardest community made gameplay in Classic Doom with the hardest community made gameplay in Doom Eternal.

Doom Eternal fans try to go 0.0001 seconds without making a strawman fallacy challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

Originalmente postado por Kyller92 AKA Cinos:

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

It proves that Classic Doom has a higher skill ceiling? lol? Also UV saveless is pretty much the Classic Doom equivalent of Ultra-Nightmare, UV with saves would be the equivalent of playing Doom Eternal on Nightmare with checkpoints

No, you can't compare difficult mods with the base campaign of a game, because those are two different types of content. By this logic, I could say Eternal has an higher skill ceiling because finishing the Kaiser Campaign Mod without dying is much harder than every level in The Ultimate Doom.

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

You obviously don’t know anything about Classic Doom if you think the number of enemies is the primary and/or sole factor in what makes a fight difficult.

Also what do you mean by “It’s not about skill, it’s about memorization”? That literally makes no sense.

So basically what you’re saying is, if I want to do a UV saveless run of Sunder map 19 for example, I don’t need skill, I just need to memorize it? Wtf does that even mean? You can say the same weird ass statement for Doom Eternal: “If you want to beat Doom Eternal on Ultra-Nightmare, you don’t need skill, you just need to memorize it”, once again, whatever that even means

Without trying to be rude, I'd just argue that you have simply a very surface-level comprehension of what Classic Doom is.

Yes, enemies aren't the sole factor in general.
However, in every examples you cited, it's indeed the case. And Sunder MAP 19 is actually one of the best example, actually, even Sunder in general is exactly that, just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area.
That's simply what a slaughter maps are at their core. And the only way to make its harder is by going to borderline unfair territories (like Italo Doom) or just by adding tons of enemies in absurd quantities (like Okupluk or each new release of Sunder).

It doesn't mean no skill is required to beat those. But they don't prove that the skill ceiling is higher, it just proves that by adding more enemies, you can always make an harder level which is a different thing.
I'd argue that someone that can beat Sunder M19 in UV saveless has already the skill needed to beat most (if not every) slaughter maps and, from here, that they only need to memorize the following maps to succeed at them.

However, put them in front of Frog and Toad and suddenly, this will be a different story.

"Just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area" "and the only way to make it harder is by adding tons of enemies in absurd quantities" "by adding more enemies, you can always make a harder level"

But that's not what creates the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ difficulty, I can put 1000 revenants in an open ass field and it wouldn't be difficult at all. For some reason you seem to think that there's a linear correlation between the number of enemies and the difficulty, which like I said a million times, is not true

"Just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area is what slaughter maps are at their core"

LOL. Simply having lots of enemies doesn't make something a slaughter map. Slaughter gameplay is about manipulating the enemy AI. It's about positioning, timing, and corralling the AI to act in certain ways. It's about herding and managing a large number of uncooperative AI in a way so that killing them becomes viable. Slaughter gameplay is a combat puzzle that requires precise movements, spacial management, and sometimes infighting in order to deal with a large group of enemies that would otherwise be absurdly difficult to kill. It's about knowing how the game works and using it to your advantage

[Ace]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Originalmente postado por Ace:

Classics:
- Pick the demon that's the biggest threat - spam with rockets.
- Stun lock at close range with the plasma.
- Memorization of were demons spawn on the map
- Spam super shotgun

If you genuinely think this is what Classic Doom boils down to then you gotta be trolling. If you genuinely think it's that easy however, please livestream yourself trying to beat some hard maps from Sunder, Sunlust, Flotsam, or any other difficult maps, livestream or record yourself trying to beat them and we'll all watch. Of course we know you probably won't actually do that because you don't want to embarrass yourself any further than you already are

Also I don't know why you keep bringing up "memorization". You do realize Doom Eternal also has fixed demon spawns right?

I never said it was that easy but that's pretty much what it boils down to. Custom wads don't count mate, sure they're fun but they're don't represent the base game which is what we are reffering to. D:E demands more from you way more & requires more skill FACT, if a game requires you to do more in order to survive apart from find a medkit or a megasphere then naturally it's going to require more mastery, weapon combos? using your flame belch effectively? using mobility to your advantage so that you don't get hit? just a few of the things you need to master if you want to survive.

I did stream the base games not to long ago on UV, but no not the custom wads as they don't count :)

[CrypticPassage (Is/Eum)]

Originalmente postado por Ace:

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

If you genuinely think this is what Classic Doom boils down to then you gotta be trolling. If you genuinely think it's that easy however, please livestream yourself trying to beat some hard maps from Sunder, Sunlust, Flotsam, or any other difficult maps, livestream or record yourself trying to beat them and we'll all watch. Of course we know you probably won't actually do that because you don't want to embarrass yourself any further than you already are

Also I don't know why you keep bringing up "memorization". You do realize Doom Eternal also has fixed demon spawns right?

I never said it was that easy but that's pretty much what it boils down to. Custom wads don't count mate, sure they're fun but they're don't represent the base game which is what we are reffering to. D:E demands more from you way more & requires more skill FACT, if a game requires you to do more in order to survive apart from find a medkit or a megasphere then naturally it's going to require more mastery, weapon combos? using your flame belch effectively? using mobility to your advantage so that you don't get hit? just a few of the things you need to master if you want to survive.

I did stream the base games not to long ago on UV, but no not the custom wads as they don't count :)

"We" are not referring to the base games, YOU are referring to the base games. The reason why you don't want to include community made content from Doom Eternal and Classic Doom is because if you did your entire argument would be destroyed in an instant

"I did stream the base games not to long ago on UV, but no not the custom wads as they don't count :)"

We know you didn't stream any custom WADs lol, you would get embarrassed if you tried, and above all it would prove that Classic Doom doesn't boil down to the things that you say it does

[Grampire]

What's the point here?

That slaughter maps take lots of skill to play like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubdda0DuFvM

Yeah, no ♥♥♥♥.

What relevance does that have on anything? That someone made some hard ♥♥♥♥ for a Megawad slaughter map that took ZeroMaster almost 3 hours to clear on a no-hit run?

It's impressive, but exactly .0000000000001% of anyone who ever played any game called Doom at all will play any game, ever made, at any time in that way, or in any way even remotely like that. A relative percentage of Doom players will never, ever play classic Doom that way either. Thus, saying it's a template for how Doom games should be designed - or any well made game that's intended for the general population to enjoy - is paramount insanity and the absolute definition of a bad faith argument.

Using stuff like this to make a point? I could use slaughter maps to bash the original games they're made for just as easily, because most of the ♥♥♥♥ you need to understand to play a slaughter map never even factors into the main game.

You're sitting here complaining about straw men like you understand rhetorical fallacy when your entire premise is one massive ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ straw man.

Seriously - get real. Get as real as you can dude. You haven't proven anything other than that you've missed the point so incomprehensibly hard that you don't even know where to begin to make an argument that's even remotely cohesive.

[Ace]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

Originalmente postado por Ace:

I never said it was that easy but that's pretty much what it boils down to. Custom wads don't count mate, sure they're fun but they're don't represent the base game which is what we are reffering to. D:E demands more from you way more & requires more skill FACT, if a game requires you to do more in order to survive apart from find a medkit or a megasphere then naturally it's going to require more mastery, weapon combos? using your flame belch effectively? using mobility to your advantage so that you don't get hit? just a few of the things you need to master if you want to survive.

I did stream the base games not to long ago on UV, but no not the custom wads as they don't count :)

"We" are not referring to the base games, YOU are referring to the base games. The reason why you don't want to include community made content from Doom Eternal and Classic Doom is because if you did your entire argument would be destroyed in an instant

"I did stream the base games not to long ago on UV, but no not the custom wads as they don't count :)"

We know you didn't stream any custom WADs lol, you would get embarrassed if you tried, and above all it would prove that Classic Doom doesn't boil down to the things that you say it does

No no the reason i don't include them is because they are not a fair representation of the game & thus do not count, do you understand now?

I would include custom content from doom eternal (Randomizer & infinite arena) off the top of my head but seeing as it's custom content it won't count, it's like trying to compare a regular run of nightmare to something like kaiser campaign.

Actually ive streamed the following custom content for all doom games

Doom 1 & 2 on UV
Doom 3 Ultimate HD on veteran
Eviternity
Back to saturn x ep 1 & 2
Sunlust
Breakpoint
Proteh's randomizer
Infinite arena
UN runs of base campaign DLC 1 & DLC 2

[Kyller92 AKA Cinos]

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

I never said I was comparing community maps with the base game, I was comparing the hardest community made gameplay in Classic Doom with the hardest community made gameplay in Doom Eternal.

Doom Eternal fans try to go 0.0001 seconds without making a strawman fallacy challenge (IMPOSSIBLE)

Most of the comments here kinda proved that your message wasn't clear so... yeah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
And even then, this still doesn't prove anything or change anything to what I wrote either. You'll still always be able to make an harder mod, regardless of the game. And the skill ceiling is irrelevant in this situation.

Originalmente postado por Jiggahertz ↣ ♠ #SaveTF2:

"Just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area"

But that's not what creates the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ difficulty, I can put 1000 revenants in an open ass field and it wouldn't be difficult at all

"Just spamming hundreds of enemies in a single area is what slaughter maps are at their core"

LOL. Simply having lots of enemies doesn't make something a slaughter map. Slaughter maps are about manipulating the enemy AI. It's about positioning, timing, and corralling the AI to act in certain ways. It's about herding and managing a large number of uncooperative AI in a way so that killing them becomes viable. Slaughter gameplay is a combat puzzle that requires precise movements, spacial management, and sometimes infighting in order to deal with a large group of enemies that would otherwise be absurdly difficult to kill. It's about knowing how the game works and using it to your advantage

Wow
First, simply having lots of enemies indeed make something a slaughter map. Whether or not it makes a good slaughter map is another story. If you put 1000 revenants in an open field, it will indeed not be difficult at all but it's still a slaughter map.

Also, that's a lot of words to say something that could be applied to most Doom-likes made before 2000 and not even in slaughter maps. And funnily enough, outside of infighting I admit, every thing listed here can be applied to Eternal either.

In short, good job, you basically just described a classic FPS.

What's even more funny is that I was agreeing with the fact that the skill ceiling in Classic Doom was actually higher than Eternal
But I disagree with the examples. Again, if you can finish Sunder UV Saveless, you already have reached the ceiling needed to beat most slaughter maps. From here, even while trying Okuplok for example, you won't acquire any new skill.

And, to reuse an example, I'd argue you learn much more about the intricacies of Classic Doom by playing something like Frog and Toad than Okuplok. The first one really requires you to know the game, while the second "just" requires you to know the map.