Why people are saying doom 2016 was more fun

[gameboy7707]

This was going to be a retrospective on doom eternal as a whole, but after seeing how much there is to go into about the combat systems of doom 2016 vs doom eternal and why more people seem to prefer doom 2016 over doom eternal, I thought I'd trim it down to just this topic as it is long enough on it's own.

A lot of people seem to enjoy doom 2016 more than they do doom eternal. I've heard this opinion from everyone I have met in person, but none of them seem to be able to point out exactly why. I agree with them in that I also find doom 2016 just a more fun experience overall, but have also struggled in determining exactly why.

After playing doom 2016 and doom eternal, both across multiple platforms over the last 3 years, and contemplating and comparing both, I believe that I have finally found an understanding as to why more people tend to enjoy doom 2016 more, and why I agree with them.

Don't get me wrong, doom eternal is a great game with a lot of impressing moving parts, but sometimes a package is less than the sum of it's parts as I am going to attempt to explain.

If you like eternal more than 2016, that's perfectly fine. It's good to be passionate about stuff you like, this is just a break down of a different perspective.

Doom 2016 gave players an ever expanding tool kit full of various ways to handle any situation. Each gun had it's ups and downs that made it viable save for only the pistol, which becomes admittedly obsolete early on. But every gun felt fun and exciting to pull out and use. It was like being the star of an action movie where you get to pick out how the scene played out! Not only that, but the use of glory kills for health and chainsaws for ammo just made sure the action never came to a halt as you were constantly not only required to push on to progress, but were actively rewarded with more resources for doing so.

Then came Doom Eternal. What was different here? Well you have more movement options, more methods of gathering resources, which were also more reliable as you had better movement to reach glory kills and a recharging chainsaw that would ensure a consistent supply of ammunition. Enemies are now more diverse as weakpoints become center focus for hindering your enemies abilities, but the biggest change by far is the focus on varied gameplay, especially using the weapon combo system.

Very basically broken down, the weapon combo system is an implementation of quick switching between weapons in order to prematurely cancel the recovery of a specific weapon by switching to a another one instead. By switching from a shotgun to a rocket launcher after firing, you can skip the pump between shots, giving the player better means of dealing more damage in a smaller time frame. This mechanic was lightly touched on in doom 2016, but became much more of a focus in eternal.

On paper, this is a perfect evolution of the combat from doom 2016. More means of self sustainability, more efficient methods of dealing with enemies, and potentially limitless possibilities of player expression by allowing players to use the quick switch mechanic to chain any possible variation of weapons together.

This "combat cycle" of harvesting resources via glory, flame belch, and chainsaw kills and utilizing the resources to survive long enough to collect more to maintain a constant pace in combat is very well woven into itself and plays onto itself very well. This system is tight... perhaps a bit too tight.

In attempt to have every mechanic work with each other well, player expression is ultimately limited by the very system built to expand upon it, and as a result, players no longer fell like they're in control of the situation they're in but are rather just picking
pre-ordained solutions to problems the game gives the player. At no point does the player have true freedom to play however they want, and are instead expected to perfectly sync up to the previously mentioned "combat cycle". The player no longer feels like an action hero in their own movie, and feels more like the recipient of endless pop quizzes over game knowledge where an incorrect answer will have them punished and in many cases, killed.

But how can this be? Doesn't the weapon switch mechanic give the player endless self expression as previously stated?

Well, yes, but, actually no.

You "can" chain a combat shotgun into a super shotgun and back again and vice versa, but doing so will very quickly empty the player's supply of shotgun ammunition, which is disappointingly less available in this game than it was in Doom 2016. without this ammo, the player will be left without the use of 2 weapons out of 8. An entire quarter of the weapon wheel, gone because the player wanted to use the shotguns more often than the small ammo pool would allow.

This becomes a problem whenever there are any weapons that go "unused" for too long. As the player uses more of the different types of ammo, their tools become more and more limited, which forces them to use weapons they are either unfamiliar with, uncomfortable with, or may simply not enjoy using.

This is a problem that very rarely occurred in Doom 2016, as the larger ammo pool meant the player was free to use as many or as few weapons as they want. They decided what their arsenal was and could use the leniency of ammo availability to experiment with different play styles and various tactics to situations. Every combat encounter was a playground to try out the cool toys, instead of a math problem on using the correct ones the correct amount of times.

It is here that the player is left with a "choice". Either collect more resources now and waste currently stored chainsaw fuel (if you have it by now that is), or force yourself to use the weapons that you legitimately do not want to. I intentionally put the word "choice" in quotation marks because unless the player gets lucky and the combat encounter ends soon, or they will be forced to use the weapons they won't want to anyway, or be slain in which they would need to restart from the nearest checkpoint, which is never fun.

Weapon utility is also a big factor here. Ballista and rockets are great fast damage dealers, but use em too much and you can kiss your dedicated weakpoint busters goodbye, which'll leave you screwed if you happen upon revenants or mancubi. True, the heavy rifle scope and sticky bomb launcher can also be effective weak point destroyers, this also leaves you avoiding the other weapon mods in favor of these two, further restricting player expression. Regardless, it's safe to say that ammo management is very important due to the small ammo pool.

But why would the player have such a small ammo pool? Again, I feel like this was a choice that was intended to encourage player variation in weapon usage, however, the intention comes off more as a stringent requirement that makes the game less accessible and less enjoyable to those hindered by these restrictions.

Sprinkle in a dash of weapon swap execution difficulty for anyone not using mouse and keyboard, which becomes especially hindering when facing enemies that require good weapon swap capability to reliably deal with such as the marauder, and you have a cascade of mounting factors that lead to a gradual depreciation of the game and it's mechanics for anyone who is not entirely devoted to mastering every aspect of this game.

I don't think this game has any specific issue that is holding it back, but rather has a multitude of small hairline fractures in it's foundation that, while not enough to destabilize it, is enough to get people to wanna step off of it and onto more stable ground.

For what it's worth, I really, really, really wanna enjoy this game and I keep finding myself coming back to it to give it another chance, but it can never seem make me smile like doom 2016 did.

Hope this opens a bit of perspective, thanks for reading this far, if you did, and have a wonderful day.

[gameboy7707]

Why does a game need to be hard or easy be default? Why can't that just be changed with an in game difficulty setting? Let the casuals have their fun in easy mode and leave the hard requirements to the nightmare runners. That's my opinion anyway.

[Sar]

Origineel geplaatst door gameboy7707:

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

Ok, let’s look at both games’ numbers a year after they released, when the hype died down and 2016 was accepted to be a masterpiece and DE to be a miserable failure:

D2016 in the May of 2017: 1800+ players.

DE in the March of 2021: 3600+ players.

But maybe today the data is different… nope, almost 3 times as much people play DE even though Battlemode supposedly sucks and D2016 Deathmatch is supposedly fun.

I never said eternal was a failure. Just that it wasn't what people were expecting. I also think a big reason why eternal still has more over 2016 has less to do with the vanilla game and more to do with the modding community which has revamped the battle mode completely, even adding a new playable demon, added a functional co op mode, and even a functional invasion mode, which Id didn't get implemented for some reason.

And why do you think DE has a modding community? 2016 at least had SnapMap, DE doesn’t even has that and there are no official modding tools.

[gameboy7707]

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

Origineel geplaatst door gameboy7707:

I never said eternal was a failure. Just that it wasn't what people were expecting. I also think a big reason why eternal still has more over 2016 has less to do with the vanilla game and more to do with the modding community which has revamped the battle mode completely, even adding a new playable demon, added a functional co op mode, and even a functional invasion mode, which Id didn't get implemented for some reason.

And why do you think DE has a modding community? 2016 at least had SnapMap, DE doesn’t even has that and there are no official modding tools.

Think again

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cPtGjdiZgmM

[Bob]

Origineel geplaatst door gameboy7707:

Why does a game need to be hard or easy be default? Why can't that just be changed with an in game difficulty setting? Let the casuals have their fun in easy mode and leave the hard requirements to the nightmare runners. That's my opinion anyway.

The difficulty sets expectations. And by difficulty I do not mean a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ slider that just changes values of damage dealt and receive but enemy placement and overall intensity of fights. And DOOM 2016 succeeded at that by making players never feel pressure. YOU ARE THE DOOM SLAYER and you are unstoppable.

[Grampire]

You made a really long post rehashing extremely common opinions about Eternal that others have been complaining about for 3 years. It's not making anything more or less clear.

I am a casual player. I don't consider myself a super "hardcore" gamer.

Here's an 8 minute video of myself playing at a level thats pretty normal for anyone who plays enough to master the game.

Unless you can explain how everything I'm doing is the "rigid," specific way to play this game, where I use specific weapons in specific ways, consider it evidence disproving your OP hypothesis:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2922683264

Also, try weapon switching in 2016, particularly with explosive round and stun grenade, along with some of the more powerful weapons. 2016 breaks immediately when you do things like this. It breaks when you throw everything you have at it.

On the other hand, Eternal is made for that kind of gameplay. 2016 hands you power, Eternal makes you earn it. Those who refuse to earn, complain.

Edit: you know what- that last paragraph is wrong. Both games hand you power, and in reality they're both similar in design. The notion that they're "so very different" is never something I've agreed with.

The difference is that when Eternal hands you power it makes it valuable. It forces you to embrace it and see how far you can go with it and to truly learn how to wield it. There are no shortcuts, and when you master the game that's not important because you don't need them anymore anyways.

[Sar]

Origineel geplaatst door gameboy7707:

Origineel geplaatst door Sar:

And why do you think DE has a modding community? 2016 at least had SnapMap, DE doesn’t even has that and there are no official modding tools.

Think again

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cPtGjdiZgmM

Perhaps I worded myself poorly. DE has a healthier modding community in spite of being less mod-friendly because people find its gameplay systems more engaging. There is just more depth to Eternal to be explored beyond the official content.

[gameboy7707]

Origineel geplaatst door Grampire:

You made a really long post rehashing extremely common opinions about Eternal that others have been complaining about for 3 years. It's not making anything more or less clear.

I am a casual player. I don't consider myself a super "hardcore" gamer.

Here's an 8 minute video of myself playing at a level thats pretty normal for anyone who plays enough to master the game.

Unless you can explain how everything I'm doing is the "rigid," specific way to play this game, where I use specific weapons in specific ways, consider it evidence disproving your OP hypothesis:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2922683264

Also, try weapon switching in 2016, particularly with explosive round and stun grenade, along with some of the more powerful weapons. 2016 breaks immediately when you do things like this. It breaks when you throw everything you have at it.

On the other hand, Eternal is made for that kind of gameplay. 2016 hands you power, Eternal makes you earn it. Those who refuse to earn, complain.

Edit: you know what- that last paragraph is wrong. Both games hand you power, and in reality they're both similar in design. The notion that they're "so very different" is never something I've agreed with.

The difference is that when Eternal hands you power it makes it valuable. It forces you to embrace it and see how far you can go with it and to truly learn how to wield it. There are no shortcuts, and when you master the game that's not important because you don't need them anymore anyways.

I'm inclined to agree with you here. At the core, they are both about pushing the power the game gives you to topple the enemy.

But I think it's the "eternal forces you to embrace it" that people have difficulty with.

It's like owning a helicopter vs having a career as a helicopter pilot. In this case, the "flying a helicopter" is a metaphor for pushing the weapon combo system to do well. If you just own a helicopter, you can fly as much or as little as you want. If you wanna fly poorly or recklessly, that's up to you, but you're never gonna punish yourself for your own recklessness as long as you didn't crash and die when doing so. It's just a hobby you do for fun. But if you're a pilot, you suddenly have the expectation to do very well and understand every concept of the machine you're using or face the threat of being reprimanded or even losing your job for not doing well enough. In most cases, people will find the former more enjoyable than the latter. That doesn't mean that being a pilot sucks by default, but rather that they expect compensation in the form of a pay check in exchange for the stresses they go through.

Some people may very well feel rewarded and happy for mastering the combat cycle, in this case, these "pilots" have a job that is it's own reward and that's a wonderful feeling that is more than likely why so many people are so devoted to the game in the first place. The joy of success is their paycheck, but that feeling, that rewarding sense of gratification for completing it, is NOT universal.

Some people will just straight up not find it fun to play a game that has so many expectations placed on them. In fact, in the modern day and age, most people won't, because not everyone has the time or drive to practice a system enough to get good at it. And even if they did, that doesn't mean they'll enjoy it once they get there. It is completely possible to be very good at a game, and simply not enjoy it because it doesn't let you do what you want. These people kept pushing themselves trying to find that "rewarding feeling" when they succeeded, but even when they're sitting at the end of a completed ultra nightmare run, doesn't mean they'll look back at it fondly. Hell, some people might even resent it for making them go through all that trouble in the first place. And then again, you have the ones that are just not very good at games and are perfectly content being sub par and not wanting to improve.

You might call them lazy or ignorant, and you wouldn't be wrong in doing so, but that doesn't mean they're being dishonest when they say they're not having fun playing the game. And they do end up making a majority of the play base that have already complained about the system in the past.

I'm not trying to justify any positions for or against the game, I'm merely trying to understand why they exist.

[gameboy7707]

Origineel geplaatst door gameboy7707:

Origineel geplaatst door Grampire:

You made a really long post rehashing extremely common opinions about Eternal that others have been complaining about for 3 years. It's not making anything more or less clear.

I am a casual player. I don't consider myself a super "hardcore" gamer.

Here's an 8 minute video of myself playing at a level thats pretty normal for anyone who plays enough to master the game.

Unless you can explain how everything I'm doing is the "rigid," specific way to play this game, where I use specific weapons in specific ways, consider it evidence disproving your OP hypothesis:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2922683264

Also, try weapon switching in 2016, particularly with explosive round and stun grenade, along with some of the more powerful weapons. 2016 breaks immediately when you do things like this. It breaks when you throw everything you have at it.

On the other hand, Eternal is made for that kind of gameplay. 2016 hands you power, Eternal makes you earn it. Those who refuse to earn, complain.

Edit: you know what- that last paragraph is wrong. Both games hand you power, and in reality they're both similar in design. The notion that they're "so very different" is never something I've agreed with.

The difference is that when Eternal hands you power it makes it valuable. It forces you to embrace it and see how far you can go with it and to truly learn how to wield it. There are no shortcuts, and when you master the game that's not important because you don't need them anymore anyways.

I'm inclined to agree with you here. At the core, they are both about pushing the power the game gives you to topple the enemy.

But I think it's the "eternal forces you to embrace it" that people have difficulty with.

It's like owning a helicopter vs having a career as a helicopter pilot. In this case, the "flying a helicopter" is a metaphor for pushing the weapon combo system to do well. If you just own a helicopter, you can fly as much or as little as you want. If you wanna fly poorly or recklessly, that's up to you, but you're never gonna punish yourself for your own recklessness as long as you didn't crash and die when doing so. It's just a hobby you do for fun. But if you're a pilot, you suddenly have the expectation to do very well and understand every concept of the machine you're using or face the threat of being reprimanded or even losing your job for not doing well enough. In most cases, people will find the former more enjoyable than the latter. That doesn't mean that being a pilot sucks by default, but rather that they expect compensation in the form of a pay check in exchange for the stresses they go through.

Some people may very well feel rewarded and happy for mastering the combat cycle, in this case, these "pilots" have a job that is it's own reward and that's a wonderful feeling that is more than likely why so many people are so devoted to the game in the first place. The joy of success is their paycheck, but that feeling, that rewarding sense of gratification for completing it, is NOT universal.

Some people will just straight up not find it fun to play a game that has so many expectations placed on them. In fact, in the modern day and age, most people won't, because not everyone has the time or drive to practice a system enough to get good at it. And even if they did, that doesn't mean they'll enjoy it once they get there. It is completely possible to be very good at a game, and simply not enjoy it because it doesn't let you do what you want. These people kept pushing themselves trying to find that "rewarding feeling" when they succeeded, but even when they're sitting at the end of a completed ultra nightmare run, doesn't mean they'll look back at it fondly. Hell, some people might even resent it for making them go through all that trouble in the first place. And then again, you have the ones that are just not very good at games and are perfectly content being sub par and not wanting to improve.

You might call them lazy or ignorant, and you wouldn't be wrong in doing so, but that doesn't mean they're being dishonest when they say they're not having fun playing the game. And they do end up making a majority of the player base that have already complained about the system in the past.

I'm not trying to justify any positions for or against the game, I'm merely trying to understand why they exist.

[SuperFly]

Wow -- the back-breaking ways that I see superfans coming to the defense of this game's rote-restrictive gameplay has devolved to the point of "watch my demo & critique my style".

...It's time to accept that the reason people like the OP have been able to articulate "the same points for three years" is because they are the literal failing of DOOM:Eternal. That's pretty clear, by now.
The creative direction of this game went too far, and crippled the product.

Micromanagement is at the heart of that issue -- as are attempts to have people watch gameplay to pick it apart over how, exactly, it falls within the restrictive paradigm of DOOM:Eternal's failed "combat loop".
Bad direction is why D:E was a flop with most legacy fans, and didn't catch on with general audiences, either.

[Hundinger]

Origineel geplaatst door SuperFly:

Wow -- the back-breaking ways that I see superfans coming to the defense of this game's rote-restrictive gameplay has devolved to the point of "watch my demo & critique my style".

...It's time to accept that the reason people like the OP have been able to articulate "the same points for three years" is because they are the literal failing of DOOM:Eternal. That's pretty clear, by now.
The creative direction of this game went too far, and crippled the product.

Micromanagement is at the heart of that issue -- as are attempts to have people watch gameplay to pick it apart over how, exactly, it falls within the restrictive paradigm of DOOM:Eternal's failed "combat loop".
Bad direction is why D:E was a flop with most legacy fans, and didn't catch on with general audiences, either.

Blah

Blah blah

Blah blah blah

Blah

[Ace]

Imagine hating a game so much that you spend all of your time on it's forums.

[Nobody]

In DOOM 2016 the guns carried more than 2 shots and actually felt powerful.

In eternal you spend more time waiting for cooldowns and trying to get any ammo you can of the fodder instead of killing demons.

[FentanylWallaby]

Can I get a TLDR? Like four or five word summary?

[Sar]

Origineel geplaatst door ℌ𝑎𝑣𝑦𝑘:

In DOOM 2016 the guns carried more than 2 shots and actually felt powerful.

In eternal you spend more time waiting for cooldowns and trying to get any ammo you can of the fodder instead of killing demons.

Most guns feel more powerful in DE thanks to new animations and gore system. Plus some of them are objectively stronger, like both Combat Shotgun modes, scoped rifle, Plasma primary, CG primary, Lock-On Burst, SSG

[Sar]

Origineel geplaatst door TurboVirginCumLord:

Can I get a TLDR? Like four or five word summary?

DE is demanding. This sucks.