Having a hard time. Is it normal?

[fromage_enrage]

Hi!

Quick disclaimer first: this post is not meant to troll at all. Not a bait post or anything, 100% genuine.

Bought the game on Monday, and started playing today. I've played for 5+ hours and just killed the Doom Hunters. I beat Doom 2016 twice, once on Hurt Me Plenty and once on UV. I did mostly fine.

But right now I'm playing on Hurt Me Plenty and I've died more that I can recall, and as a result, not having as much fun as I would've expected... yet.

I get the whole weak point thingn but how do I disable a Mancubus' arms, a Revenant's rocket launchers and keep away from a Hell Knight all at once? Plus getting used to the shotgun being on the "1" hotkey is really hard for me, since there's no pistol anymore.

It really feels like a giant "Rock paper scissors" thing, whereas you could kill any demon pretty much however you wanted in the previous game. If you get the wrong weapon, forget about it. And if you swap to the wrong weapon, you're pretty much toast.

If you've played Doom 2016 THEN Eternal in that order, just like me, have you felt the same? Am I going to get better?

[Sar]

lmao do you really think that several hours is too big of a learning curve? I'd love to see you try playing something like an actual roguelike (not roguelite) or an RPG

[SuperFly]

Originally posted by SuperFly:

Originally posted by GLUE:

As with any game, you will get better as time goes on.

The issue with D:E was that the learning curve was several hours-long -- which is excessive for any title, but completely inappropriate for a DOOM game.

"Having a hard time" is an understatement, when people just put the game down for not being rewarding enough for the time invested.
Having to re-learn the wrote-memory moves the game requires you to use to succeed, is also counter-intuitive to the franchise at large.

Originally posted by Sar:

lmao do you really think that several hours is too big of a learning curve? I'd love to see you try playing something like an actual roguelike (not roguelite) or an RPG

Perhaps, you should reconsider your time management and risk vs. reward factors when approaching the games you play?

You do you, though. Different strokes are for different folks, and there's nothing wrong with how you spend your leisure time.

Making an hours-long learning curve for a DOOM game, is wrong for the property, though.
D:E did bad, and sits at the bottom of the popularity pile for that reason.

[Grampire]

Originally posted by SuperFly:

Originally posted by GLUE:

As with any game, you will get better as time goes on.

The issue with D:E was that the learning curve was several hours-long -- which is excessive for any title, but completely inappropriate for a DOOM game.

"Having a hard time" is an understatement, when people just put the game down for not being rewarding enough for the time invested.
Having to re-learn the wrote-memory moves the game requires you to use to succeed, is also counter-intuitive to the franchise at large.

The attraction of Doom Eternal is that it has thus far been a 500 hour learning curve.

If that's not your thing then Hurt Me Plenty and lower along with Sentinel Armor are there. And I expect the people who play using those things are more likely to portray the hill they refuse to climb as a the Matterhorn. Because this isn't the game for them.

[SuperFly]

Originally posted by Grampire:

Originally posted by SuperFly:

The issue with D:E was that the learning curve was several hours-long -- which is excessive for any title, but completely inappropriate for a DOOM game.

"Having a hard time" is an understatement, when people just put the game down for not being rewarding enough for the time invested.
Having to re-learn the wrote-memory moves the game requires you to use to succeed, is also counter-intuitive to the franchise at large.

The attraction of Doom Eternal is that it has thus far been a 500 hour learning curve.

If that's not your thing then Hurt Me Plenty and lower along with Sentinel Armor are there. And I expect the people who play using those things are more likely to portray the hill they refuse to climb as a the Matterhorn. Because this isn't the game for them.

That's a lot of hours you could have been putting that finger dancing & tempo/cadence-keeping into playing guitar, or something of similar design.
I understand if that's not for you -- but then you'd have something to show for it besides a skin, or whatever.

You're right, though -- after finishing the campaign twice before retroactive cartoonish handicaps & nonsense were implemented, and two failed DLC which took the game into a dumpster fire -- I can truly say it's not the game for me.

That's not to agree with any pedantry that wasting 500 hours on UV runs amounts to any source of true pride or achievement; but at least keeping time to a metronome will be way easier for those with that kind of dedication.

[Jordan_Peterson]

Originally posted by Grampire:

Originally posted by SuperFly:

The issue with D:E was that the learning curve was several hours-long -- which is excessive for any title, but completely inappropriate for a DOOM game.

"Having a hard time" is an understatement, when people just put the game down for not being rewarding enough for the time invested.
Having to re-learn the wrote-memory moves the game requires you to use to succeed, is also counter-intuitive to the franchise at large.

The attraction of Doom Eternal is that it has thus far been a 500 hour learning curve.

If that's not your thing then Hurt Me Plenty and lower along with Sentinel Armor are there. And I expect the people who play using those things are more likely to portray the hill they refuse to climb as a the Matterhorn. Because this isn't the game for them.

500 hours of learning curve?
More like 500 hours of 'climbing the same hill over and over again' if you ask me.
But hey, if you're into masochism and repetition, then Doom Eternal is the game for you!

Just don't expect me to join you on that never-ending climb, I'll stick to the easier 'Hurt Me Plenty' difficulty and Sentinel Armor.
Because let's be real, who wants to spend 500 hours on a learning curve when you can spend 500 hours doing something actually fun and exciting? But hey, to each their own, let me know how that Matterhorn climb goes for you.

[Hundinger]

Originally posted by 🎓DI They ruined Baldurs Gate:

Originally posted by Grampire:

The attraction of Doom Eternal is that it has thus far been a 500 hour learning curve.

If that's not your thing then Hurt Me Plenty and lower along with Sentinel Armor are there. And I expect the people who play using those things are more likely to portray the hill they refuse to climb as a the Matterhorn. Because this isn't the game for them.

Just don't expect me to join you on that never-ending climb, I'll stick to the easier 'Hurt Me Plenty' difficulty and Sentinel Armor.

No one expects you to join them. Quite the opposite. And didn't you claim to have beaten all of the game's content on ultra nightmare?

[Jordan_Peterson]

Originally posted by Hundinger:

Originally posted by 🎓DI They ruined Baldurs Gate:

Just don't expect me to join you on that never-ending climb, I'll stick to the easier 'Hurt Me Plenty' difficulty and Sentinel Armor.

No one expects you to join them. Quite the opposite. And didn't you claim to have beaten all of the game's content on ultra nightmare?

You got me there! I did say that I've beaten all the game's content on ultra-nightmare, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed every second of it.

It's like saying you've finished a marathon, but it doesn't mean you enjoyed running 26.2 miles. But hey, to each their own, some people like the challenge of climbing a mountain, while others prefer a leisurely stroll on the beach. I guess I'm just more of a beach person when it comes to Doom Eternal.

I read somewhere this, I dont know if it is true:

"The difference between hardworking folks and slackers? Hardworking people know how to have a good time and play games that are enjoyable, while the lazy ones want games that are like virtual chores - challenging and time-consuming, so they can feel like they're actually doing something with their lives."

[Sticky White Stuff]

Honsestly i prefer my games to be the hardest they can get, otherwise i don't find any enjoyment out of them. If i don't have a 50:50 chance of dying with my mistakes, i don't bother with them. The only exception here are if the enemies are sponges for soaking damage. Good thing most game aren't like that and they balance them pretty nicely.

But that's just my take on video games. Some prefer their games to be easier, enjoyable, and just play for fun and be done with it. I am one of those that replay games over and over and over again until i master the game, do challenge runs, speedruns, etc.

This is why i am addicted to recent (and old) Capcom games like DMC, Resident Evil, etc.
Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, Ultrakill, Turbo Overkill, etc. go into the same category.
I also don't think Doom Eternal has a big learning curve or a big skill ceiling compared to most games. Especially a 500 hour learning curve. It's more like 10-20 hours to hit the top. This isn't DMC or Ultrakill where there is advanced tech and math behind those games on how damage, combos and other things are calculated with synergies.
Not with the challenge, nor with Speedrunning.

[Grampire]

Originally posted by GLUE:

Honsestly i prefer my games to be the hardest they can get, otherwise i don't find any enjoyment out of them. If i don't have a 50:50 chance of dying with my mistakes, i don't bother with them. The only exception here are if the enemies are sponges for soaking damage. Good thing most game aren't like that and they balance them pretty nicely.

But that's just my take on video games. Some prefer their games to be easier, enjoyable, and just play for fun and be done with it. I am one of those that replay games over and over and over again until i master the game, do challenge runs, speedruns, etc.

This is why i am addicted to recent (and old) Capcom games like DMC, Resident Evil, etc.
Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, Ultrakill, Turbo Overkill, etc. go into the same category.
I also don't think Doom Eternal has a big learning curve or a big skill ceiling compared to most games. Especially a 500 hour learning curve. It's more like 10-20 hours to hit the top. This isn't DMC or Ultrakill where there is advanced tech and math behind those games on how damage, combos and other things are calculated with synergies.
Not with the challenge, nor with Speedrunning.

Not really seeing it so far with Ultrakill - game seems pretty easy so far. Granted I'm only on the second act on Violent difficulty and mostly netting A-B ranks on my first runs. It's a great game - very kinetic - but the gameplay is really loose and the variation in the fights relies more on the arena layout than the enemies actually doing anything you need to care about most of the time.

That V2 fight seemed kinda interesting but you can just cheese the ♥♥♥♥ out of it with the magnetic alt fire for the mini-gun. There's lots of options but they all feel like they're just crowding each other. And mechanics like weapon swapping only seem to matter for scoring purposes, not so much because you need to do them to survive.

I'll finish the game but yeah, I see what Chester's talking about. The game isn't that challenging so far and it needs the platforming and movement to keep it interesting at a much higher level than something like Eternal does, where the combat feels like it has a lot more weight.

I am in awe that one guy made this game - he's impressive for sure.

[Sticky White Stuff]

Originally posted by Grampire:

Originally posted by GLUE:

Honsestly i prefer my games to be the hardest they can get, otherwise i don't find any enjoyment out of them. If i don't have a 50:50 chance of dying with my mistakes, i don't bother with them. The only exception here are if the enemies are sponges for soaking damage. Good thing most game aren't like that and they balance them pretty nicely.

But that's just my take on video games. Some prefer their games to be easier, enjoyable, and just play for fun and be done with it. I am one of those that replay games over and over and over again until i master the game, do challenge runs, speedruns, etc.

This is why i am addicted to recent (and old) Capcom games like DMC, Resident Evil, etc.
Doom 2016, Doom Eternal, Ultrakill, Turbo Overkill, etc. go into the same category.
I also don't think Doom Eternal has a big learning curve or a big skill ceiling compared to most games. Especially a 500 hour learning curve. It's more like 10-20 hours to hit the top. This isn't DMC or Ultrakill where there is advanced tech and math behind those games on how damage, combos and other things are calculated with synergies.
Not with the challenge, nor with Speedrunning.

Not really seeing it so far with Ultrakill - game seems pretty easy so far. Granted I'm only on the second act on Violent difficulty and mostly netting A-B ranks on my first runs. It's a great game - very kinetic - but the gameplay is really loose and the variation in the fights relies more on the arena layout than the enemies actually doing anything you need to care about most of the time.

That V2 fight seemed kinda interesting but you can just cheese the ♥♥♥♥ out of it with the magnetic alt fire for the mini-gun. There's lots of options but they all feel like they're just crowding each other. And mechanics like weapon swapping only seem to matter for scoring purposes, not so much because you need to do them to survive.

I'll finish the game but yeah, I see what Chester's talking about. The game isn't that challenging so far and it needs the platforming and movement to keep it interesting at a much higher level than something like Eternal does, where the combat feels like it has a lot more weight.

I am in awe that one guy made this game - he's impressive for sure.

Ultrakill isn't hard. It's very easy overall. It's hard to master. There are so many tech things you could do, and even that would scratch just the surface.
It's all about how you combo specific types of weapons, weapon effects and how the hidden modifiers along with the calculation works.

For example, you can kill the current hardest boss in the game by just abusing the math the game throws at you, in like 10 seconds? This is where the actual skills come from.
Doing those things, and at pinpoint accuracy is very hard. Those things are very hard to master. However the game itself, when you learn new things, do new stuff, and as you progress with a lot of hours under your belt, makes it worth learning, pretty much like any game, but especially in Ultrakill and Devil May Cry for example.

Ultrakill is all about style, hidden tech and math. Not difficulty in reality. The difficulty comes from chaining those things together and making new strats never seen before.
Like flipping a coin with your hand, stringing it until the boss spawns as an entity, then the coin will go to his head, if you use a Piercer Slab, it will Pierce the enemy, then pierce the coins along with it, however you have to aim where the small coin is, behind the enemy head to achieve that.
It's the amount of stuff you can do in the game itself what makes it so impressive.

It's a game all about style, otherwise you can just beat the game with the default revolver.
Pretty much like you can beat the original Doom 2016 at Hardest with Just a Pistol, or Doom Eternal with just the Hidden Pistol/Shotgun, however you still need resources for that.

Both Doom Eternal and Ultrakill have very punchy combat. I mean, most modern FPS games do.
The game has been expanded to two developers now. However Hakita, the main guy, does most of the job, and the OST which is amazing. I haven't seen a single game, let alone an FPS that uses Breakcore with Electronic/Guitar Elements and Orchestral/Classical Pieces.

It's kinda similar when people joke about Ultrakill and Doom. "You buy the Soundtrack and receive the Game for free" on how both OSTs are godlike.

[Jordan_Peterson]

Guitars and Doom Eternal, who knew they had so much in common!
The analogy of comparing the combat system to Dance Dance Revolution is spot on, it takes practice and dedication to master.
Not everyone is up for the challenge, but for those who are, it's a true test of skill and coordination.

And, who knows, maybe one day we'll see you shredding on stage with your guitar and mastering Doom Eternal simultaneously, now that would be something to be proud of.

[Hundinger]

Originally posted by 🎓DI They ruined Baldurs Gate:

Originally posted by Hundinger:

No one expects you to join them. Quite the opposite. And didn't you claim to have beaten all of the game's content on ultra nightmare?

You got me there! I did say that I've beaten all the game's content on ultra-nightmare, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed every second of it.
[/i]

Unless you are one of the chosen few it would have taken you several tries each to beat the campaigns and MLs on NM. A pretty masochistic thing to do when you hate the game. Doesn't matter though, you didn't do it. You are lying.

[Sticky White Stuff]

I have beaten them on the PS5 without a problem. Due to my limited SSD space, i don't have Eternal on PC currently, tried HDD but i fear it would burn down how much shredding it does when it loads 2016 and Eternal. (So i haven't played it on PC for a LONG time)

It's for people who enjoy a challenge. And i enjoy a challenge in every game i own and love.
It's not just about completing the difficulty, it's also finding new ways to enjoy the game by restricting yourself, or if achievements/trophies exist like for Resident Evil, No Healing, No Item Boxes, Knife Only, etc.

[Jordan_Peterson]

Originally posted by Hundinger:

Originally posted by 🎓DI They ruined Baldurs Gate:

You got me there! I did say that I've beaten all the game's content on ultra-nightmare, but that doesn't mean I enjoyed every second of it.
[/i]

Unless you are one of the chosen few it would have taken you several tries each to beat the campaigns and MLs on NM. A pretty masochistic thing to do when you hate the game. Doesn't matter though, you didn't do it. You are lying.

Looks like you've got me all figured out, I must be one of the chosen few!
But in all seriousness, I assure you my experience with the game is genuine and my opinions are based on my own playthroughs.
I may not be a master at the game, but who says hate and masochism can't coexist?
Maybe I just have a love-hate relationship with the game, like a spicy food kind of thing.

But hey, let's not get bogged down by accusations, we all know they indicate just one thing:"Someone lost an argument and doesn't know what else to say anymore!"

[Grampire]

Originally posted by GLUE:

Originally posted by Grampire:

Not really seeing it so far with Ultrakill - game seems pretty easy so far. Granted I'm only on the second act on Violent difficulty and mostly netting A-B ranks on my first runs. It's a great game - very kinetic - but the gameplay is really loose and the variation in the fights relies more on the arena layout than the enemies actually doing anything you need to care about most of the time.

That V2 fight seemed kinda interesting but you can just cheese the ♥♥♥♥ out of it with the magnetic alt fire for the mini-gun. There's lots of options but they all feel like they're just crowding each other. And mechanics like weapon swapping only seem to matter for scoring purposes, not so much because you need to do them to survive.

I'll finish the game but yeah, I see what Chester's talking about. The game isn't that challenging so far and it needs the platforming and movement to keep it interesting at a much higher level than something like Eternal does, where the combat feels like it has a lot more weight.

I am in awe that one guy made this game - he's impressive for sure.

Ultrakill isn't hard. It's very easy overall. It's hard to master. There are so many tech things you could do, and even that would scratch just the surface.
It's all about how you combo specific types of weapons, weapon effects and how the hidden modifiers along with the calculation works.

For example, you can kill the current hardest boss in the game by just abusing the math the game throws at you, in like 10 seconds? This is where the actual skills come from.
Doing those things, and at pinpoint accuracy is very hard. Those things are very hard to master. However the game itself, when you learn new things, do new stuff, and as you progress with a lot of hours under your belt, makes it worth learning, pretty much like any game, but especially in Ultrakill and Devil May Cry for example.

Ultrakill is all about style, hidden tech and math. Not difficulty in reality. The difficulty comes from chaining those things together and making new strats never seen before.
Like flipping a coin with your hand, stringing it until the boss spawns as an entity, then the coin will go to his head, if you use a Piercer Slab, it will Pierce the enemy, then pierce the coins along with it, however you have to aim where the small coin is, behind the enemy head to achieve that.
It's the amount of stuff you can do in the game itself what makes it so impressive.

It's a game all about style, otherwise you can just beat the game with the default revolver.
Pretty much like you can beat the original Doom 2016 at Hardest with Just a Pistol, or Doom Eternal with just the Hidden Pistol/Shotgun, however you still need resources for that.

Both Doom Eternal and Ultrakill have very punchy combat. I mean, most modern FPS games do.
The game has been expanded to two developers now. However Hakita, the main guy, does most of the job, and the OST which is amazing. I haven't seen a single game, let alone an FPS that uses Breakcore with Electronic/Guitar Elements and Orchestral/Classical Pieces.

It's kinda similar when people joke about Ultrakill and Doom. "You buy the Soundtrack and receive the Game for free" on how both OSTs are godlike.

Ok then my bead on Ultrakill isn't too far off.

Don't get me wrong - the foundation for it is extremely solid and they can go a lot of cool places with the game. I definitely get that some people are in to the "anything goes" feeling and it has a Tony Hawk meets FPS vibe to it that's very interesting in this space, and I mean that as a compliment as I LOVE the good Tony Hawk games. I can easily make the connection to how someone would love that.

I just personally feel like most of the game so far has literally felt almost like "anything goes," and for me that reduces the impact individual tools have. Design is always weighted between player freedom and agency, and I think Ultrakill currently skews too far toward the former for my personal taste.

Parries are a great example - cool idea in this game and a potentially powerful tool, and landing one feels really awesome. But there's zero reason to take the risk when I have so many other safer options that kill things faster. Everything feels optional from a functional standpoint, right down to weapon swapping. There has to be more of a road to follow than that for me.

Flash is great and can make a game feel cool and fun, but there has to be more underlying function to make your options feel valuable and the tools have situational characteristics. Eternal is a great example - it has some flash in the form of weapon swaps, but swaps also dramatically improve your damage output - giving a reason to master and employ them.

In Ultrakill I felt like weapon swapping didn't really boost anything other than my score. Does Eternal offer as much freedom? Clearly not - but that loss of freedom comes at the gain of having tools that have more unique, situational purpose, which makes employing them feel powerful.

I'm optimistic about Ultrakill - I think the higher difficulties may be just what are needed to really force people to flex the full kit. And I've no doubt there's advanced tech. There's just currently no functional challenge to really push me towards it.