DOOM(2016) Is Better?

[Vitica]

I don't understand Eternal. It feels like DOOM(2016) arcade mode not an actual real campaign. The environments are not as memorable on Eternal either. I couldn't get into it. I will stick with DOOM(2016). Anyone else feel that way?

[Chrille 🎃]

I would say that it depends really...

[Grampire]

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

I was someone who was willing to give the game a try despite reserved feelings:

* The game ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sucks for the first couple levels.

This is weird, because in the end I actually do like that the first levels aren't super lenient on how the game ends up playing overall, because it makes them more fun to replay in the end. However, they still feel awful the first time through when you've only got the shotgun + mods and assault rifle and haven't gotten in to the groove of how combat plays.

If anyone has made it to the cultist base and are unsure if they want to continue; it does get a lot better after that point.

* "Gimmicky Combat"

I still don't like how the best way to kill a Cacodemon half the time is by firing a Shotgun Grenade at them, whether you GK them or not (Or maybe I just don't like that Rockets and Shoulder-Grenades don't have the same effect because reasons?), but this is another thing about the game that starts off insufferable before going away when you've got a more complete arsenal that has room for more personal input.

As far as Quick-Switching goes: I don't really care for it, because it's just artificial complexity imo. (If being able to output that much dps is OK, and even intended from a balance perspective, why not just have the arbalest/super shotgun invididually fire that quickly? Switching weapons isn't hard.)

My first playthrough was on Ultra-Violence, and I never felt it was necessary. I only ever did it for Marauders, not because I felt like I had to, but because the fights with them were way longer than they needed to be otherwise.

Now I'm sure that might change on Nightmare, but I'm the kind of person who prefers their game on the second hardest, or just Normal skill generally; and so if I have to pull out all the stops when I choose to play through on the hardest difficulty, so be it.

Since I mentioned Marauders-

* Marauders

I wonder how I would have felt about these guys If I hadn't been exposed to all the hate and complaints, and was inevitably relieved when they ended up being not nearly as bad as I was led to believe. At this point I'm not even worried about the Double Marauder fight I've heard is in the expansion.

I actually thought they were pretty interesting because they feel super Metroid Primey- a game which had a lot of enemies designed around dodging before exploiting a brief attack window.

* Music/story

The music isn't bad, and some of it was good, but I also don't remember any of it specifically. Maybe that's because of how much busier the combat is and it was just harder to pay attention to than 2016's soundtrack, but there's something to be said that Doom 2016's music is integral to the experience and Eternals was just kind of there. I've heard so much about "The Only Thing They Fear Is You." wherever that must have been, it didn't stand out any more than anything else I heard in the game.

Doom Eternal's story logs fall into the common trap of describing a bunch of nouns and calling that lore. I'm the kind of person who plays Metroid Prime and scans literally everything in the environment to read every little paragraph and logbook entry I can. Even I just ended up skimming over most of the lore bits I picked up. It's badly written.

Doom 2016's logs were better and actually described something relevant, such as the role of the part of the UAC facility you're in, or one of the actual characters in the story. They were also a lot of jokes, often framing the uses of the facility and the people who worked there with a darkly humorous light, or revealing that VEGA played the role of a professor tasking students with determining whether they were talking to an AI, unbeknownst to said students. Eternal's logs are just a lot of brootul metal-af sick nasty glop that's interesting for like two sentences then drowns itself in a sea of meaningless nouns.

The subversive element of Doom Guy 2016 being actively disinterested in the motives of the other characters and only concerned with killing demons and keeping Hell contained was also better. I like that there are actual characters and story going on in the background; it's the framing of my player character not giving a ♥♥♥♥ that puts an interesting perspective on it. Eternal Doom Guy being a still seemingly-uncaring, but more actively heroic superguy with a literal fortress of solitude isn't as memorable.


Overall, the only thing that disappoints me about Eternal is that it's convinced a bunch of nerds that it's automatically better than 2016 in every way: It's not, it's just different and harkens to a much more irreverent era of game design. 2016 is moodier and is more of an "experience."

Between the level/pacing design of 2016 and some of the combat/movement ideas of Eternal, I'd love to see an ID-made Metroid-style game. The whole "Live menu" design of the Doom Fortress has me feeling like they were experimenting with the idea

I would have to say that your impressions of the game for the most part matched mine after my first UV run. The story is definitely not something to write home about and I skip it, bit the combat and gameplay definitely suffers in the first 4 levels of the game. That's definitely a huge and in my opinion very valid criticism of the game, even if there's a decent excuse for it.

Obviously opinion changed a bit, but needless to say I completely see where you're coming from on most of this.

[Sar]

You can feed a shoulder grenade to a caco. Rockets are too fast,” and explode on impact.

[Marshilian]

Prefer Doom 2016 to Doom Eternal any day for 5 reasons.

One, Specifications. Doom 2016 runs on older machines, runs on open gl also whereas Doom Eternal only runs on Vulkan. Not much lost in detail as both are action games and no one hangs around to admire the HD. The Post-industrial look of Doom 2016 is anyway astounding and the Hell landscapes unique and adequate. Doom Eternal looks old and worn out - a cheap copy.

Two, Artwork. The colors, fonts, boxes, demon's faces, are much much better in Doom 2016, the ones in Doom Eternal look clumsily designed in comparison.

Three, Action. You can actually kill the zombies and imps with melee attacks in Doom 2016 whereas in Doom Eternal you can just push them back and you have to use your precious ammo on each one of them. Aiming is really difficult on consoles with the demons jostling you about. Also the demons fight amongst each other in both games but in Doom Eternal its all playacting - no one dies and you have to do the job yourself.

Four. Platforming. The crazy mindless platforming.....there's too much of it and makes the Doom Guy into a monkey. And the Climbable walls and Dash Charge-ups hanging in midair are really bad design. One can rationalise that earlier DoomGuys left ammo, weapons and health packs scattered about. But who constructed those stippled walls and left the Dash Charge-ups and convenient Monkey-bars in mid-air. Makes no sense. Maybe platforming works on a PC but on a console it is a horrible experience with therapist-level damage done to us players when we fall for the 50th time. The maddening thing is (at the end of the Exultia level) if you fall you respawn in an earlier checkpoint with slightly less health, and you have to literally commit suicide to loose all health and respawn in the checkpoint you started from. Crazy.

Five, Codex entries. What's with the long meaningless story and tutorial hints. Everyone knows Doom needs no story and no tutorial. No one cares for the ridiculous Codex. TLDR.

Have got the impression from forums that once you get into it Doom Eternal becomes excellent. But with all the jumping about and falling to one's death, don't think that will happen soon. Played Doom 2016 through twice (once on PC, once on console) and will do so again. Best game ever.

[Grampire]

^ I actually love this review. It flies completely in the face of all the people claiming Doom Eternal has been "consolized."

There's a raw take from someone who played it on console. Good stuff.

[Hundinger]

Автор сообщения: Marshilian

Prefer Doom 2016 to Doom Eternal any day for 5 reasons.

One, Specifications. Doom 2016 runs on older machines, runs on open gl also whereas Doom Eternal only runs on Vulkan. Not much lost in detail as both are action games and no one hangs around to admire the HD. The Post-industrial look of Doom 2016 is anyway astounding and the Hell landscapes unique and adequate. Doom Eternal looks old and worn out - a cheap copy.

Two, Artwork. The colors, fonts, boxes, demon's faces, are much much better in Doom 2016, the ones in Doom Eternal look clumsily designed in comparison.

Three, Action. You can actually kill the zombies and imps with melee attacks in Doom 2016 whereas in Doom Eternal you can just push them back and you have to use your precious ammo on each one of them. Aiming is really difficult on consoles with the demons jostling you about. Also the demons fight amongst each other in both games but in Doom Eternal its all playacting - no one dies and you have to do the job yourself.

Four. Platforming. The crazy mindless platforming.....there's too much of it and makes the Doom Guy into a monkey. And the Climbable walls and Dash Charge-ups hanging in midair are really bad design. One can rationalise that earlier DoomGuys left ammo, weapons and health packs scattered about. But who constructed those stippled walls and left the Dash Charge-ups and convenient Monkey-bars in mid-air. Makes no sense. Maybe platforming works on a PC but on a console it is a horrible experience with therapist-level damage done to us players when we fall for the 50th time. The maddening thing is (at the end of the Exultia level) if you fall you respawn in an earlier checkpoint with slightly less health, and you have to literally commit suicide to loose all health and respawn in the checkpoint you started from. Crazy.

Five, Codex entries. What's with the long meaningless story and tutorial hints. Everyone knows Doom needs no story and no tutorial. No one cares for the ridiculous Codex. TLDR.

Have got the impression from forums that once you get into it Doom Eternal becomes excellent. But with all the jumping about and falling to one's death, don't think that will happen soon. Played Doom 2016 through twice (once on PC, once on console) and will do so again. Best game ever.

1. Specs: newer games have higher specs, no surprise.

2. Artstyle: totally subjective. I prefer the huge variety of locations to the same same from 2016. But that's just me.

3. Melee: I will never understand how you would prefer a slightly more damaging melee attack to the super powerful bloodpunch which is easily charged. After the upgrades you are rarely without blood punch, so normal punch is obsolete. I wouldn't be totally opposed to normal punch being a little stronger, but complaining about that when you go bp, please.

4. Platforming: You remember 2016? Platforming was there, controls weren't as well made as in Eternal, and when you fell, you were dead. In Eternal you lose a little health and if you equip the chaingun shield while falling, you lose nothing.

Platforming teaches the player good habits for movement in combat. And how is it mindless? It surely is more engaging than walking down a corridor.

5. Codex Entries: 2016 told its story via data pads. Same thing. But it had a few unskippable sequences where Samuel talked your ear off for several minutes. In Eternal cutscenes are skippable.

You can turn off tutorials. I don't know if you should, because Eternal has a few mechanics that are unique to the game like weak point breaking, but you can. If you decide to do so, there is always the possibility to read the tutorials in menu. No reason to complain about something which you can ignore if you want but is helpful to many others.

2016 has everything you complain about in Eternal, but Eternal does all that better. Except artstyle of course because that's subjective. I like Eternal's more, you 2016's. That's okay.

[furbleburble]

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

Overall, the only thing that disappoints me about Eternal is that it's convinced a bunch of nerds that it's automatically better than 2016 in every way: It's not, it's just different and harkens to a much more irreverent era of game design. 2016 is moodier and is more of an "experience."

I played 2016 first, years before I played Eternal. I prefer Eternal because I found 2016 boring. The first time I played 2016, I quit out of boredom. Shortly after quitting, I went back and completed the game, on HMP. Eternal actually compels me to get better and turn the difficulty up. I completed 2016 on Nightmare, because I found HMP boring, and I still found it lacking. I've completed Eternal on Nightmare, but I still enjoy Eternal on HMP. Am I a nerd? Or do I only qualify for nerd status under certain circumstances? What differentiates nerd from not-nerd?

Also, what do "moodier" and "more of an 'experience'" mean?

---------------------

Автор сообщения: Marshilian

Prefer Doom 2016 to Doom Eternal any day for 5 reasons.

One, Specifications. Doom 2016 runs on older machines, runs on open gl also whereas Doom Eternal only runs on Vulkan. Not much lost in detail as both are action games and no one hangs around to admire the HD. The Post-industrial look of Doom 2016 is anyway astounding and the Hell landscapes unique and adequate. Doom Eternal looks old and worn out - a cheap copy.

Two, Artwork. The colors, fonts, boxes, demon's faces, are much much better in Doom 2016, the ones in Doom Eternal look clumsily designed in comparison.

Preferring one game to another because the one requires a less demanding system doesn't really make sense. I prefer some DOS games to a lot of modern games but the requirements have nothing to do with it. Newer games tend to require newer specs; that's just how it works.

I hang out to admire the HD. I didn't spend the money I did on my computer to not enjoy the graphics. Maybe what you play(ed) on lacks the capabilities to make the game shine? Legitimate question, no mockery.

Автор сообщения: Marshilian

Three, Action. You can actually kill the zombies and imps with melee attacks in Doom 2016 whereas in Doom Eternal you can just push them back and you have to use your precious ammo on each one of them. Aiming is really difficult on consoles with the demons jostling you about. Also the demons fight amongst each other in both games but in Doom Eternal its all playacting - no one dies and you have to do the job yourself.

I'm not sure why melee matters in a doom game. Further, Blood Punch is inherently better in probably every conceivable way. Besides that, fodder goes down to a chainsaw bringing ammo back, and it's often easy enough to get multiple weak enemies with Flame Belch and grenades for a massive restoration to health and armor. I can't understand how a weak melee is even remotely relevant just because it can kill zombies.

The difficulty you express with aiming on console is exactly why I've been wanting to see K&M functionality on console. It's utterly ridiculous that you can't use K&M these days, especially since K&M is inherently superior for aiming. While it is possible to get good with a controller, it's unnecessarily more difficult to do so.

Regarding demons fighting each other, I've watched demons kill each other on multiple occasions.

Автор сообщения: Marshilian

Four. Platforming. The crazy mindless platforming.....there's too much of it and makes the Doom Guy into a monkey. And the Climbable walls and Dash Charge-ups hanging in midair are really bad design. One can rationalise that earlier DoomGuys left ammo, weapons and health packs scattered about. But who constructed those stippled walls and left the Dash Charge-ups and convenient Monkey-bars in mid-air. Makes no sense. Maybe platforming works on a PC but on a console it is a horrible experience with therapist-level damage done to us players when we fall for the 50th time. The maddening thing is (at the end of the Exultia level) if you fall you respawn in an earlier checkpoint with slightly less health, and you have to literally commit suicide to loose all health and respawn in the checkpoint you started from. Crazy.

I'm going to guess this is a console vs PC thing. I've no experience with Eternal on console so I have nothing to say about that specifically, but on PC I find it considerably easier than your experience suggests for console.

Regarding the platforming itself... Many of the monkey bars actually look like they're part of the construction, like exposed beams or flagpoles or something, but they're designed in a way to draw attention to the player. A lot of the platforming is a way to make what would have been an otherwise boring hallway into something less boring. I actually like a lot of the platforming, but even I find some of it to be wholly out of place or excessive.

Автор сообщения: Marshilian

Five, Codex entries. What's with the long meaningless story and tutorial hints. Everyone knows Doom needs no story and no tutorial. No one cares for the ridiculous Codex. TLDR.

Plenty of people care about the codex entries and story. I am not one of them. I would have been perfectly happy if Eternal had neither story nor lore/story codex. Tutorials are a different matter. I like how this game handles tutorials; they're not shoved down your throat and they're easily recalled via the tutorial codex.

Автор сообщения: Marshilian

Have got the impression from forums that once you get into it Doom Eternal becomes excellent. But with all the jumping about and falling to one's death, don't think that will happen soon. Played Doom 2016 through twice (once on PC, once on console) and will do so again. Best game ever.

I encourage you to get Eternal on PC when it's on sale and give it another go. You might still find Eternal lacking, which is fine, but I think you should give it a shot.

Edit: It was brought to my attention that I attributed quotes to the wrong person. I believe I have corrected this. I apologize to the respective people for the errors.

[Bansheebutt]

I should make it clear that when I post my thoughts about something, I don't care what would-be responders think or feel about my perspective, or care to speculate the distinct preferential differences between us made us feel so differently about it.

Contrary opinions are inevitable and there's not enough time to care about about the ones about videogame preferences.

But yes, gamers who hark about "objective improvements" and can't comprehend someone else's preferences in the face of supposed "inferiorities", (that only exist as inferiorities in their mind) are in fact, nerds.

[Grampire]

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

I should make it clear that when I post my thoughts about something, I don't care what would-be responders think or feel about my perspective, or care to speculate the distinct preferential differences between us made us feel so differently about it.

Contrary opinions are inevitable and there's not enough time to care about about the ones about videogame preferences.

But yes, gamers who hark about "objective improvements" and can't comprehend someone else's preferences in the face of supposed "inferiorities", (that only exist as inferiorities in their mind) are in fact, nerds.

It's a fine review- I don't have a problem with anything you said and it represents very common perceptions of the game at the level you're playing at.

Howeveer, I'm a bit puzzled as to why you reposted your review here if you're entirely apathetic towards potential feedback from this community of "nerds" (Welcome!), but here's hoping I get over that.

[furbleburble]

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

I should make it clear that when I post my thoughts about something, I don't care what would-be responders think or feel about my perspective, or care to speculate the distinct preferential differences between us made us feel so differently about it.

If you don't care, why post at all?

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

Contrary opinions are inevitable and there's not enough time to care about about the ones about videogame preferences.

But you found the time to write out a lengthy opinion on the board, in particular a lengthy opinion that contradicts others and discusses preferences?

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

But yes, gamers who hark about "objective improvements" and can't comprehend someone else's preferences in the face of supposed "inferiorities", (that only exist as inferiorities in their mind) are in fact, nerds.

So you do care, and you can find the time, when you feel the need to correct others? You also cared enough to clarify something?

You claim to not care, you claim to not have the time for something, but you demonstrate that you do care and have the time to not only write out a lengthy opinion but also clarify something.

Color me confused.

[Bansheebutt]

Автор сообщения: Grampire

Howeveer, I'm a bit puzzled as to why you reposted your review here if you're entirely apathetic towards potential feedback from this community of "nerds" (Welcome!), but here's hoping I get over that.

Автор сообщения: furbleburble

If you don't care, why post at all?

But you found the time to write out a lengthy opinion on the board, in particular a lengthy opinion that contradicts others and discusses preferences?

So you do care, and you can find the time, when you feel the need to correct others? You also cared enough to clarify something?

You claim to not care, you claim to not have the time for something, but you demonstrate that you do care and have the time to not only write out a lengthy opinion but also clarify something.

Color me confused.

It's feedback of my feedback I don't care about. (and It's not a repost. I beat the game a few days ago, saw this thread, and decided that's what I had to say about it.) I don't care what you think about what I think.

I like game design and like talking about it. I don't like arguing about how different, perfectly valid game designs are supposedly better than another, because not all games have to be enjoyed by all people. (that goes for both games you like and hate.)

I got over that kind of thing growing up playing Bethesda RPGs and Resident Evils and wasting too much time having arguments that were never going to change anyone's mind, about games that were all good by their individual merits anyway. (ie, being a nerd)

Furble, the calling of Doom 2016 as "boring" is exactly the thing I'm talking about. It wasn't boring to me. It was boring to you. What good even comes out of discussing that? How do you quantify "boredom"? Can we even agree on an objective measurement of boredom?

There are people who like Stamp Collecting, which is about the most unexciting thing I can think of that is still technically a hobby. It's pointless trying to argue how exciting and enjoyable a game is as though that's some objective thing.

[ETERNAL SLAYER]

Автор сообщения: CyraxCyber

1. cartoony
2. if i wanted to play angry mario, i would have plugged in a nintendo and hit the cart with a hammer eternally.
3. story you left me on a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ cliff hanger and then did the 20 ears later thing... 0 context.
4. you claim to want this high paced speed but the ammo drop rate is so low and everything becomes so tank you cant get ammo to kill crap, so then your literally making it a bane to play. you end up feeling stuck in a cumbersome loop of killing stuff and then looking for ammo while you have a stupid, once off flame thrower and grenades that is forgotten about less than 2 mins into the game and feel cumbersome and messy to the whole time
JUST TO GET SOME ARMOUR AND AMMO with a glory kill and then i need to sit there thru this repetitive animation that realy lot it's charm after the 20th time..... see where this is going?
Hell is real and doom eternal is not it... the whole game feel like it was trying to make a country accept it thru repeated compromises and gimicks.

skill issue. Git gud trash.

[furbleburble]

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

It's feedback of my feedback I don't care about. (and It's not a repost. I beat the game a few days ago, and that's what I decided I had to say about it.) I don't care what you think about what I think.

I like game design and like talking about it. I don't like arguing about how different, perfectly valid game designs are supposedly better than another, because not all games have to be enjoyed by all people.

I got over that kind of thing growing up playing Bethesda RPGs and Resident Evils and wasting too much time having arguments that were never going to change anyone's mind.

If all you're after is affirmation, that's your prerogative but be prepared to have your opinions challenged around here. If you're unwilling to have your opinions challenged then you're in the wrong place, because they will be challenged around here. Having said that, having your opinion challenged is not the same as having it shot down. Personally, I won't shoot your opinion down, but a fair amount of people around here think any disagreement ore request for justification = shooting down; they can't tell the difference.

[Grampire]

Автор сообщения: Bansheebot

Автор сообщения: Grampire

Howeveer, I'm a bit puzzled as to why you reposted your review here if you're entirely apathetic towards potential feedback from this community of "nerds" (Welcome!), but here's hoping I get over that.

It's feedback of my feedback I don't care about. (and It's not a repost. I beat the game a few days ago, saw this thread, and decided that's what I had to say about it.) I don't care what you think about what I think.

I like game design and like talking about it. I don't like arguing about how different, perfectly valid game designs are supposedly better than another, because not all games have to be enjoyed by all people. (that goes for both games you like and hate.)

OK that's great and I understand that. I've personally come to appreciate that most games I consider good are passionately hated by at least a contingent of people and I if nothing else find it interesting to hear why our opinions diverge. Not saying you passionately hate Eternal, just like 2016 more - that's a great and perfectly defensible opinion.

I'm still struggling with the "I don't care / not here to talk about that" part though because I feel like your review of Doom 2016 (which you did indeed repost above) accomplished that - without illiciting the discussion you say you don't want by posting it here.. Just gotta say that if you post something like that in the valley of the "nerds" you are almost assured to get exactly that response.

[Bansheebutt]

Автор сообщения: furbleburble

If all you're after is affirmation, that's your prerogative but be prepared to have your opinions challenged around here. If you're unwilling to have your opinions challenged then you're in the wrong place, because they will be challenged around here. Having said that, having your opinion challenged is not the same as having it shot down. Personally, I won't shoot your opinion down, but a fair amount of people around here think any disagreement ore request for justification = shooting down; they can't tell the difference.

You can challenge my opinions all day, but what is there really to "challenge?"

I liked Eternal; design wise I think it's solid and I can see the reasoning for just about every change that was made from D'16. You literally can't have an argument about that with me, because we're going to agree on just about all of it.

I still overall preferred the experience of playing D'16 more. Eternal was fun tho.

Opinions are subjective, but they may as well be fact for the person who holds them, if not for the theoretical idea that my opinions *could* change. But I've been playing games for decades, and have a pretty good idea of what I like, so-

Автор сообщения: Grampire

(which you did indeed repost above)

I think you have me confused with someone else, due to an editing error by furble.

I haven't said anything about D'16 other than what can be inferred by what I've said about Eternal and that bit about the writing and story presentation.

You don't have to understand why someone might like D'16 more than Eternal, it's being an insufferable dork who thinks they're "wrong" for preferring D'16 over Eternal and tries to argue that point that makes someone a nerd.

For clarity, I have not insinuated anyone here is a nerd, based on what has been said to me, only presented that concept. If you want to see what True-Blue nerds are, go to the Fallout 4 or New Vegas forum and ask about the other game. Say how much better one is if you really want to start a fire.