Spirits are an awful enemy for multiple reasons

[Qdude]

Before I go into it, spirits really aren't that bad, but they are definitely the worst designed enemy in the entirety of Doom Eternal. And of course, if you're one of the best players in the world you won't agree, but I'm speaking for everyone else.

1. Extremely lazy way to get people to use microwave beam. You must use the microwave beam to kill them. There's another way, which is basically to ignore them an entire fight and save them for the end so the spirit vanishes, but in the vast majority of fights spirits must be killed to continue the fight. Multiple weapons destroy weakpoints, stone imps can be killed with the hammer, but the absolute only way to get rid of a spirit in most circumstances is the microwave beam. Let's not forget that when a spirit comes out, you have to immediately chainsaw because you likely have no plasma ammo after dumping it all into a possessed demon.

2. Ruins the carefully constructed balance of existing demons. Every enemy in this game is beautifully crafted and balanced so that they are fun to fight and are a fair challenge. Spirits completely, factually, throw off the balance of whatever demon it's possessing by giving them four times as much health and speed, immortalizes their weakpoints, and prevents them from being frozen and staggered. The best strategy to taking out a possessed demon is to lock-on spam until they're dead, because everything else is so slow and consumes incredible amounts of ammo.

3. Not fun to fight. If you choose option A, which is avoid them the whole fight, how is it fun to circle around an arena avoiding an enemy because they're so horribly off-balance? If you choose option B, which is try and deal with them as soon as they come out, how is it fun to spam all your rockets and see the demon is still standing? I only play The World Spear and UAC Atlantica and avoid the other levels because they throw way too many spirits at you. The later levels in horde mode are absolutely dreadful.

There's my opinion. I pray that a similar demon doesn't return in the sequel, if we even get one.

[Knud den Store 🧙‍♂]

I disagree because they are carefully used to amp up the challenge and they are better than Totem Buff and Screamer Buffs are much more unfair.

Spirits are not a problem until the final fight with Samuel because damn can that Pain elemental take damage, eat two BFG shots like a champ.

Additionally there is a 3rd way to defeat them, after killing 3 possessed demons the spirit will banish. Also you can just stun them a little with the microwave beam, reposition yourself and do it again.

For a sequel, I would much rather have the summoner back from 2016 and have the archvile be a mix of Eternal and Doom 2. I miss his "Oh sh*t" flame pillars but I do think the flame shield is pretty awesome. Archvile should have his attack replaced by the flame pillars and I do like how it teleports around now, it just needs to summon demons faster, not as many, just faster oh and forget the archvile buff have the summoner have that.

[Qdude]

Originally posted by Knud den Store:

I disagree because they are carefully used to amp up the challenge and they are better than Totem Buff and Screamer Buffs are much more unfair.

I'm very curious about your opinion about the totem. How can anyone see that a spirit is better than a totem? A totem simply makes demons faster, which if you leave it alone makes things hard, but it's not overwhelmingly unbalanced like a spirit. Screamers are good because they punish you for messing up. If you play perfectly then you'll never have to deal with a screamer, unlike a spirit which just spawns in and you have no control over it. Same goes for the totem.

That Samuel boss fight is awful, I don't know what id was thinking when they made it.

[furbleburble]

Originally posted by Qdude:

Before I go into it, spirits really aren't that bad, but they are definitely the worst designed enemy in the entirety of Doom Eternal. And of course, if you're one of the best players in the world you won't agree, but I'm speaking for everyone else.

I'm nowhere close to best in the world and I disagree with your assessment.

Originally posted by Qdude:

1. Extremely lazy way to get people to use microwave beam. You must use the microwave beam to kill them. There's another way, which is basically to ignore them an entire fight and save them for the end so the spirit vanishes, but in the vast majority of fights spirits must be killed to continue the fight. Multiple weapons destroy weakpoints, stone imps can be killed with the hammer, but the absolute only way to get rid of a spirit in most circumstances is the microwave beam. Let's not forget that when a spirit comes out, you have to immediately chainsaw because you likely have no plasma ammo after dumping it all into a possessed demon.

I used to think the Microwave Beam (MB) was ass but then I learned. It's a great mod. You don't need to use plasma ammo on a possessed demon; just kill the demon like you would anything else, then use MB on the spirit. The MB can stun a possessed demon, which is nice, but it's not necessary to kill it this way. Plasma ammo is only necessary for the spirit. The MB is great for stunning. It's great for killing multiple targets via aoe, and the stronger the demon it's used on the stronger a blast it creates. The MB melts blue shielding, adding another way to trivialize Doom Hunters. The MB is great against the blue shield soldiers, even better imo than unmodded fire. In short, the mod only sucks if you don't know how to use it properly.

Originally posted by Qdude:

2. Ruins the carefully constructed balance of existing demons. Every enemy in this game is beautifully crafted and balanced so that they are fun to fight and are a fair challenge. Spirits completely, factually, throw off the balance of whatever demon it's possessing by giving them four times as much health and speed, immortalizes their weakpoints, and prevents them from being frozen and staggered. The best strategy to taking out a possessed demon is to lock-on spam until they're dead, because everything else is so slow and consumes incredible amounts of ammo.

Someone else could argue against your point here better than I can but I disagree. Perhaps in a ML you're right and I don't have the experience with MLs to say, but in the campaign + TAGs I disagree. I found, for example, the Holt's possessed Tyrant to be considerably easier if I kill it once everything else is dead; it seems counter-intuitive but it's what's worked best for me. Earlier in the same level is either a possessed Hell Knight or a possessed Cybermancubus (idk why it changes but it's not always the same). I found MB'ing the Cybermancubus to death to be effective but LoB'ing the Hell Knight to be best. Also in the same level is a possessed Arachnotron, which really gives me no issue. The possessed Marauder I do like other Marauders, SSG+Ballista (Edit: The possessed Marauder gives me a lot of trouble and I didn't mean to suggest otherwise, but SSG+Ballista is how I deal with it).

Originally posted by Qdude:

3. Not fun to fight. If you choose option A, which is avoid them the whole fight, how is it fun to circle around an arena avoiding an enemy because they're so horribly off-balance? If you choose option B, which is try and deal with them as soon as they come out, how is it fun to spam all your rockets and see the demon is still standing? I only play The World Spear and UAC Atlantica and avoid the other levels because throw way too many spirits at you. The later levels in horde mode are absolutely dreadful.

Not everything needs to be fun to fight. I seriously dislike some enemies but they don't detract from the overall experience. Avoiding or fighting possessed demons is circumstantial; it depends on the enemy that's possessed as well as the environment you're in.

Originally posted by Qdude:

There's my opinion. I pray that a similar demon doesn't return in the sequel, if we even get one.

I don't think the spirit should be avoided in future games. Like the Marauder, I think they're a good break in the flow. I think enemies that force people to break from their standard play is a good thing if it's implemented well, and I think spirits are well implemented for the most part.

Edit: Except where noted above, the editing was to fix format and typos.

[Hundinger]

You can call it a lazy way to make people use the beam if you want. But the side effect is that many people learned to love that mod after experimenting with it because they had it equipped. Also don't waste plasma ammo on spirited demons. Stun them with the beam from time to time if you need to but they are resistant to the ballista so just don't use that. Spirited demons are among the few cases I switch to the lock on, it works very well on them. And in general: watch your ammo pool. Don't chainsaw after you run out of something, just do it regularily, a pip fills up, a fodder goes down.

[space]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

[furbleburble]

@space

I get that it's frustrating to see people complaining about a given thing in Eternal, but at least OP didn't come in here ranting and raving while demanding Spirits be removed from the game. OP actually tried to make decent arguments.

Edit: Fixed typo.

[chester]

I love Spirits because they turn enemies that normally aren't threatening into big threats. Typically you wouldn't bat an eye at something like an Arachnotron. But when it's possessed, it becomes more threatening than a super heavy. Possessed enemies are some of the most fun enemies to fight imo.

I agree that they're a lazy way to get people to use the microwave beam, but I don't mind it because it works well. Microwaving a Spirit creates tension, and it's a fitting way to kill such a threatening enemy. Plus, it helped people realize that the microwave beam is more viable than we initially gave it credit for. The majority of people, myself included, probably never would have given it a chance otherwise.

As a whole, the Spirit had a pretty huge impact on how people played the game. Possessed demons pushed people to use pb quickswap combos rather than the ballista combos that were the meta before TAG 1. Mainstay combos like pb rocket likely would have never become as popular without Spirits. So I'd actually argue that Spirits are one of the best enemies in the game. They singlehandedly changed the meta, and you can't really say that for any other enemy (except maybe the Marauder).

[DOOM: The Dark Ages (3 Days)]

Originally posted by space:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c

no ♥♥♥♥ sherlock, he literally said "There's my opinion" at the end, can you even read? captain obvious over here.

[Qdude]

Originally posted by furbleburble:

Not everything needs to be fun to fight. I seriously dislike some enemies but they don't detract from the overall experience. Avoiding or fighting possessed demons is circumstantial; it depends on the enemy that's possessed as well as the environment you're in.

Major disagree. We play games because they are fun, challenging distractions. Every aspect of a game should be made as fun as possible. Fun =/= easy, fun = fun. It should be fun to absolutely destroy and be fun to get absolutely destroyed. Playing master levels where I die 40 times in a small section still remains fun. Spirits (and I'm not going to clarify it's my opinion because of course it is) are not fun at all, they throw off the balance of enemies and punish you from the get go. Totems punish you for not memorizing the level or ignoring them, screamers punish you for hitting them, spirits punish you because you exist. A buff that makes a Baron withstand 20 rockets should not be something that's just immediately granted to the Baron. It should at least require some player error and punishment. It's not fun, it's not fair.

Originally posted by furbleburble:

I used to think the Microwave Beam (MB) was ass but then I learned. It's a great mod.

I never argued that spirits are bad because of the microwave beam, which partly it is because the microwave beam is bad for it's intended purpose and is only good for stunning demons for half a second (I use MB over the Heat Blast anyway). I argued that spirits are bad because you're forced to use the microwave beam. There's literally NO other way to counter spirits, except saving them for last which doesn't work in most cases because spirits are the "trigger demons" in fights, or apparently have the spirit possess 3 demons which is just the worst ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ idea I've ever heard. Stone imps can be killed with the hammer, weakpoints can be broken with multiple weapons, but spirits MUST be killed with the microwave beam.

I appreciate you respecting my opinion in your other comment. I'm glad we can have a reasonable discussion.

[Raytraced]

Not the worst, but definitely one of them for me. Without going much into specifics, the simple reason of HP buff and CC immunty making an ultimate combo of one if not the lamest ways to introduce challenge into any game is sufficient enough.

[Sar]

fun is 100% subjective my dudes, you can’t use it as an objective argument

for some people the rush seeing a glowing blue Baron chariging at them at sanic speed and knowing they can’t freeze/punch/use a myriad of other OP tools to completely neutralize them is very fun, and their experiences aren’t less valid than yours

their fun != your fun and it’s fine

[Qdude]

Originally posted by Sar:

fun is 100% subjective my dudes, you can’t use it as an objective argument

for some people the rush seeing a glowing blue Baron chariging at them at sanic speed and knowing they can’t freeze/punch/use a myriad of other OP tools to completely neutralize them is very fun, and their experiences aren’t less valid than yours

their fun != your fun and it’s fine

Read the last line in the original post because you didn't.

[furbleburble]

Originally posted by Qdude:

Originally posted by Sar:

fun is 100% subjective my dudes, you can’t use it as an objective argument

for some people the rush seeing a glowing blue Baron chariging at them at sanic speed and knowing they can’t freeze/punch/use a myriad of other OP tools to completely neutralize them is very fun, and their experiences aren’t less valid than yours

their fun != your fun and it’s fine

Read the last line in the original post because you didn't.

Making a broad statement like Sar made does not automatically equate to not reading. On top of that, Sar is right. If you're willing to have your opinion changed then cool, but if you're unwilling to have your opinion changed then why post your opinion? If you really just wanted to rant, then space was right for his post. Given how often people want to just complain and not listen to anything that contradicts their narrative, I don't blame space. If you want an actual discussion then it's important to recognize the opinions of others as being valid even if you disagree with them. Sar was pointing out that the things you don't like are things others do like.

Before someone points out that I said Sar and later space, I know, that was intentional.

Edit: Fixed format.

[Qdude]

I posted my opinion because it's my opinion and I hope people get to see it and agree with it. No one is obligated to be open with their opinion, they're allowed to say it and receive any critique they get for it. That being said, I'm still open to my position on spirits, I will never like the current implementation of spirits ever but that doesn't mean I can't be convinced to dislike it less. Yeah, what I said was harsh, but it's ridiculous how I have to repeatedly say it's my opinion, or say it once at all. Of course it's my opinion, it's not math where everything's objective. I made this post because it felt so strange to me how no one bats an eye to this enemy, when I had such strong opinions about it. I wanted to understand where I aligned, and additionally maybe convince people or be convinced.

[Knud den Store 🧙‍♂]

Originally posted by Qdude:

Originally posted by Knud den Store:

I disagree because they are carefully used to amp up the challenge and they are better than Totem Buff and Screamer Buffs are much more unfair.

I'm very curious about your opinion about the totem. How can anyone see that a spirit is better than a totem? A totem simply makes demons faster, which if you leave it alone makes things hard, but it's not overwhelmingly unbalanced like a spirit. Screamers are good because they punish you for messing up. If you play perfectly then you'll never have to deal with a screamer, unlike a spirit which just spawns in and you have no control over it. Same goes for the totem.

That Samuel boss fight is awful, I don't know what id was thinking when they made it.

The spirit is interesting in that it turns any regular enemy into a death threat and I hope the arachnotron gets its buff back. Early TAG had a possessed arachnotron that was an immediate concern.

The buff totem / Archvile boost is unfair in that the situation becomes overwhelming really fast, thankfully Buff Totems in the campaign are very obvious but for examples check out the master levels and horde mode on nightmare, thankfully we do not have to do horde mode in Ultra Nightmare.

Screamers provide a buff to both health and damage and screamers respawn.