Stickybombs shouldn't stagger Cacodemons

[Uscari]

It just seems a bit broken doesn't it?

We're talking about 1 shell that takes a 2500hp heavy demon completely out of the fight instantly, and turns them into a free blood punch, dash, and hp refill, as well as teleportation spot and invincibility frames.

I think grenades staggering them is fine because grenades have a slow recharge, the projectile speed is low, the arc isn't very forgiving, so it's more of a challenge.

But Stickies travel fast, have a forgiving arc, cost next to nothing, and have a fast firing rate.

I don't think any other demon in the game has such a debilitating weakness. All demons have some exploitable weakness but nothing like this, the only other one that comes to mind is the Pinky who gets killed by Bloodpunch but 1 bloodpunch is worth a lot more than 1 shotgun shell, and it puts you in some danger as well.

What do you guys think? Do you think stickybomb grenades should put Cacodemons in glory kill state? It just seems like a waste of an otherwise threatening enemy to be trivialized that way.

[The Great Spirit Mata Nui]

Personally I'm fine with it. Their bite and multi-shot attack are devastating so they are balanced imo. Also if a human had a small explosive device explode in their mouth that is likely death let alone being staggered for a few seconds, so it makes sense to me that a doomslayer-grade grenade would do enough to stagger the caco for a little.

[DisparagingEgo]

I think they are fine as is. The caco is only threatening at the beginning of the game when you are weak or later on when it supported by other demons. Sometimes I use the sticky bombs to just buy time while I work on another demon. The arbalest one shots them and is my preferred method later on. Also, when they appear in groups larger than 2, the sticky bombs don't really take them out of the fight fast enough. I feel like ID got them right. If they didn't have that weakness then I'd think the start of the game would be even more brutal which it doesn't really need.

[Ace]

It's fine the way it is, you don't have to use to it.

[Condred]

It seems like sticky bombs stagger the cacodemons easily as away to counter them before you get your more powerful weapons.

I think they'd be fine with or without the sticky bomb staggers. As far as heavy demons go, cacodemons have pretty low health.

[UNBREAKABLE]

It does seem to make them irrelevant, but Cacodemons are still something you don't want to keep around too long and are going to use fast methods to erase anyway. They will bite you from existence on Nightmare if you let them get to close, and are horrifyingly silent before they attack so they can do so catching you off guard as well.

So the pressure is still going to be the kill them ASAP anyway, whether that is a quick PB+Ballista combo, an arbalest blast, a lock on burst, etc. Shotgun grendes to mouth really don't make them any more trivial in the broader game and just another option.

[Uscari]

Originally posted by UNBREAKABLE:

It does seem to make them irrelevant, but Cacodemons are still something you don't want to keep around too long and are going to use fast methods to erase anyway. They will bite you from existence on Nightmare if you let them get to close, and are horrifyingly silent before they attack so they can do so catching you off guard as well.

So the pressure is still going to be the kill them ASAP anyway, whether that is a quick PB+Ballista combo, an arbalest blast, a lock on burst, etc. Shotgun grendes to mouth really don't make them any more trivial in the broader game and just another option.

I agree Cacodemons are a real threat due to strong ranged attacks and fast firing bite, but I just feel like that they never get a chance to truly display that because it's too easy to immobilize them instantly.

The difference between sticky staggers and others is mostly ammo efficiency. With PB + Ballista I'm using 50 plasma ammo, or 1/5th of my total supply to deal with 1 demon. Arbalest I can do with just 1 shot but at least with that I have to charge up my shot, which takes time. Lock-On Burst costs me 25% of my rockets, very costly.

Like yeah if I want to take down Cacodemon ASAP, I still can without stickybombs, but with other options there are more drawbacks and it becomes a bit more of a strategic decision imo.

[Noname]

Originally posted by Uscari:

What do you guys think? Do you think stickybomb grenades should put Cacodemons in glory kill state?

I think this weakpoint is trash
game without this is better, less trashernal

[Žviks]

I agree. I was scared of Cacodemons in original doom games. They felt very tanky when you first encountered them and they usually came in hordes as well. Now, 5 or more Cacodemons spawned is very rare, even in Master Levels and you can instantly stagger all of them at the same time. Arbalest one shots them as well. They have too many counters imo. Should be a grenade only thing and they should make them come in more numbers.

[Uscari]

Originally posted by Lord Cacodemon:

I agree. I was scared of Cacodemons in original doom games. They felt very tanky when you first encountered them and they usually came in hordes as well. Now, 5 or more Cacodemons spawned is very rare, even in Master Levels and you can instantly stagger all of them at the same time. Arbalest one shots them as well. They have too many counters imo. Should be a grenade only thing and they should make them come in more numbers.

I don't mind Arbalest 1-shotting them because it's basically the only use for the mod so the time it takes to switch to the mod and the charge up leaves you open to other threats.

It also costs 1/10th of ammo capacity to use.

Also you don't get all the benefits of the guaranteed glory kill.

Stickybomb launcher on the other hand takes half as much ammo capacity to use compared to Arbalest, missing isn't punishing at all, takes much less time to use, and gives all the benefits of glory kills.

[MattCryptid]

It's a bit OP but Cacodemons still pose a threat in the game. Their attacks are genuinely deadly.

Seeing Cacodemons as early as Hell on Earth is great, they're one of the most recognisable demons in Doom so of course they had to put them there, and along with the Arachnotrons it really helped aid the feeling of being badass. Fighting fodder at the start isn't necessarily bad but those early heavies help sell that level to me IMO.

Remember though, when people are coming into the game there's no guarantee they're going to be able to toss that grenade into a Caco's mouth, so those sticky bombs are a nice safety net to ease frustration.

Along with that, it helps reinforce the idea of demons having weaknesses which is nice.

[Uscari]

Originally posted by MattCryptid:

It's a bit OP but Cacodemons still pose a threat in the game. Their attacks are genuinely deadly.

Seeing Cacodemons as early as Hell on Earth is great, they're one of the most recognisable demons in Doom so of course they had to put them there, and along with the Arachnotrons it really helped aid the feeling of being badass. Fighting fodder at the start isn't necessarily bad but those early heavies help sell that level to me IMO.

Remember though, when people are coming into the game there's no guarantee they're going to be able to toss that grenade into a Caco's mouth, so those sticky bombs are a nice safety net to ease frustration.

Along with that, it helps reinforce the idea of demons having weaknesses which is nice.

I can definitely appreciate it's a good way to even out how weak you are in the early game, I guess I just wish it didn't make them so weak for the rest of the game.

[MattCryptid]

Originally posted by Uscari:

Originally posted by MattCryptid:

It's a bit OP but Cacodemons still pose a threat in the game. Their attacks are genuinely deadly.

Seeing Cacodemons as early as Hell on Earth is great, they're one of the most recognisable demons in Doom so of course they had to put them there, and along with the Arachnotrons it really helped aid the feeling of being badass. Fighting fodder at the start isn't necessarily bad but those early heavies help sell that level to me IMO.

Remember though, when people are coming into the game there's no guarantee they're going to be able to toss that grenade into a Caco's mouth, so those sticky bombs are a nice safety net to ease frustration.

Along with that, it helps reinforce the idea of demons having weaknesses which is nice.

I can definitely appreciate it's a good way to even out how weak you are in the early game, I guess I just wish it didn't make them so weak for the rest of the game.

They're not "weak" though. They might be less impressive when compared to the new demons but Cacodemons were never particularly powerful demons in the first place. They usually would die from 2 SSG shots and in Doom 3 the regular shotgun took them out in 2 shots.

The Pain Elementals are there for a reason.

[Drune]

It encourages weapon switching because it's so efficient to use it on them. Seems fine

[Uscari]

Originally posted by MattCryptid:

Originally posted by Uscari:

I can definitely appreciate it's a good way to even out how weak you are in the early game, I guess I just wish it didn't make them so weak for the rest of the game.

They're not "weak" though. They might be less impressive when compared to the new demons but Cacodemons were never particularly powerful demons in the first place. They usually would die from 2 SSG shots and in Doom 3 the regular shotgun took them out in 2 shots.

The Pain Elementals are there for a reason.

With the sticky staggers I feel like they are weak. I mean they're practically floating health packs, nearly a fodder demon.

They are threatening but their AI pathing is so exploitable. The low movement speed and predictable movement makes it just so easy to land stickies in them.

It would just be nice if both of the only 2 flying demon types were genuinely challenging to deal with.