WTF PARTIAL CONTROLLER SUPPORT

[rainwolfscott]

WHY PARTIAL CONTROLLER SUPPORT, LIKE WTF

ITS 2020 AND THEY CANNOT HAVE FULL SUPPORT

UNLESS THERE TALKING ABOUT, COUGH, BETHESDA CLIENT LAUNCHER, COUGH,

[HELL ON EARTH]

You won't catch me using a controller on pc, mouse and keyboard only. Controller for me is far to clunky, but for arcade games no problem. 😁

[Manndroid]

But... It's the PC version.

[ByTheNumbers]

Publicado originalmente por rainwolfscott:

WHY PARTIAL CONTROLLER SUPPORT, LIKE WTF

ITS 2020 AND THEY CANNOT HAVE FULL SUPPORT

UNLESS THERE TALKING ABOUT, COUGH, BETHESDA CLIENT LAUNCHER, COUGH,

Guess you're not buying the game. Oh well.

[EldritchErin]

Publicado originalmente por rainwolfscott:

WHY PARTIAL CONTROLLER SUPPORT, LIKE WTF

ITS 2020 AND THEY CANNOT HAVE FULL SUPPORT

UNLESS THERE TALKING ABOUT, COUGH, BETHESDA CLIENT LAUNCHER, COUGH,

Sometimes it means partial in that the game itself only has input icons for a certain controller, in this case, its likely Xbox Controllers that have icons, but not Switch or PS4

[Nyctelios]

I find interesting how some people try and make others out to be an idiot for playing with a controller on a PC not thinking for one moment that some people have limitations which would prevent them from gaming with a Mouse & Keyboard. Take me for example. I had a stoke as a infant which caused me to lose most of my motor skills on my left hand. This has limited me how I can play video games. I do understand that it is much better to use a mouse & keyboard for a FPS but not all of us can use it.

[void]

Publicado originalmente por Manndroid:

But... It's the PC version.

Gaming with a keyboard and a mouse is bad for your back, neck, and wrists. Eventually you'll turn 30 and you'll have to start worrying about that stuff. And gamers are getting older every year. James Rolfe is now 40, for instance. Sometimes you'll want to sit back and play with a gamepad to give your body a break.

In any case, gyro controls are greatly improving. With a steam controller I get about 25k in Aimlab in the motionshot/spidershot/gridshot without warming up, with a DS4 it's 35k, with an SN30 Pro+ it's 45k. Without warming up with a G403 mouse I get about 55k. I look forward to seeing what I get with a DS5 when controller emulators for it start coming out, maybe I'll get 55k. I know that's a low score, but I'm a 30-something boomer who mostly plays ultra-difficult ASCII roguelikes like Nethack and CDDA that don't rely on reflexes and I sure as hell don't play eSports anymore. And I can still get 70k in gridshot after warming up.

Games do need to accommodate people who want to use a gamepad. I don't know why games are designed around Xbox controllers when Nintendo and Playstation controllers are more widely used and superior in every way. If the game is released on Steam it's usually a non issue because of Steam's built in controller emulators that convert DS4 and Switch Pro controller input to Xbox input(as long as the company doesn't go out of their way to block input from Nintendo controllers like Horizon Zero Dawn does), unfortunately we now have Windows Store, Battle.net Launcher, and Epic Games Store exclusives. Sometimes you can get the Steam overlay to work by adding non-Steam games to your library, but sometimes that doesn't work. Sometimes you can use a third-party controller emulator, but sometimes that doesn't work either. So yeah, it's gets annoying. I ought to be able to use my SN30 Pro+ with working gyro on every game regardless of which store I buy the game from.

Doom Eternal btw works perfectly fine with my SN30 Pro+ in Nintendo Switch mode, so I don't see why OP is complaining.

[Salamand3r-]

Publicado originalmente por void:

Games do need to accommodate people who want to use a gamepad. I don't know why games are designed around Xbox controllers when Nintendo and Playstation controllers are more widely used and superior in every way.

Widely used? Nah, the Xbox series of controllers were usable on PC long before PS controllers were, and looooong before Nintendo had PC compatible controllers, and were the first major brand RF wireless controller that was widely available.

And 360 controllers were one of the top selling electronics items on Amazon for a couple of years, and overall were sold - PC compatible - for well over a decade before being phased out. I know very few gamers that don't have at least one 360 or later controller around or have used one, but I know very few who have PS or Nintendo controllers.

Remember that the first PS controllers to work natively on PC were the PS4 controllers. MS had an 8 year head start in PC controller sales with the 360.

Superior in every way is also subjective, particularly when it comes to comfort. The most comfortable controller I have ever used is the old XBox "Duke". I know a lot of people hate them, but for me that's literally the best controller for comfort of all time. I find the more narrow and parallel arm position required for PS-style controllers to be highly uncomfortable - not Dreamcast levels of bad, but close.

In terms of build quality, sure XBox controllers are generally lesser. But they still last - I'm still rocking decade-old 360 controllers, although the batteries are mostly toast these days.

On top of that, the Xbox control standards are the only ones with OS-native support, and MS has made a much firmer commitment to providing alternate control options to people with limited mobility or other disabilities like so.[www.microsoft.com]

All in all, making judgements about which controllers are "superior" (unless we're talking about crappy Naki or Madcatz knockoffs) is no different than kb/m proponents making a blanket statement about controllers.

Just like anyone can use any input method they want, claiming one controller is overall better - and backing it up with an estimate on popularity that doesn't make any sense, given the history and context of the controllers is even worse.

[hazardous4247]

I played plenty of games with a controller on pc. Doom however, it not one of them anymore. I beat doom 2016 with a controller on nightmare and I honestly don't know how. I tried to play this game with the same controller and I almost ended up shelving the game over it. I was so frustrated with how it controlled. Both games have a very weird curve to the sticks that made it very hard to actually aim at anything, I would always over steer the right stick. I ended up strafing with the left stick a lot of time until my target lined up. In eternal, this just doesn't work on higher difficulty levels.

On a much more positive note, I love this dumb game so much that I forced myself to get used to mouse and keyboard and eventually ended up beating eternal and the dlc on nightmare. It's now my preferred input for shooters by a long shot.

[void]

"Widely used? Nah, the Xbox series of controllers were usable on PC long before PS controllers were, and looooong before Nintendo had PC compatible controllers, and were the first major brand RF wireless controller that was widely available. "

That isn't the case now. The PS4 and the Nintendo Switch sold about 180 million combined while the Xbox One sold around 50 million. Way more people use Nintendo and Playstation controllers.

"And 360 controllers were one of the top selling electronics items on Amazon for a couple of years, and overall were sold - PC compatible - for well over a decade before being phased out. I know very few gamers that don't have at least one 360 or later controller around or have used one, but I know very few who have PS or Nintendo controllers."

Yes, the Xbox 360 was successful. Two generations ago it made sense to build PC games around the Xbox 360 controller. The PS3 did poorly at first and the Wiimote was specifically designed for the Wii.

"Superior in every way is also subjective, particularly when it comes to comfort. The most comfortable controller I have ever used is the old XBox "Duke". I know a lot of people hate them, but for me that's literally the best controller for comfort of all time. I find the more narrow and parallel arm position required for PS-style controllers to be highly uncomfortable - not Dreamcast levels of bad, but close."

The Xbox controllers don't have gyro, they don't have touchpads, and they don't have adaptive triggers. They are objectively lacking in the features that the other controllers have. If you find them more comfortable, good for you(most gamers disagree), but in two decades the only notable features that have been added to the Xbox controller are L3/R3 buttons and that was nearly 15 years ago. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad Microsoft has focused on universal compatibility, and I think all games should be playable on an Xbox 360 controller because that allows them to be played on other platforms, like say a cell phone with a Razer Kishi. But that doesn't mean that they should not add the OPTION of using the features of the other controllers which nearly 200 million people use, way more than use an Xbox controller. If 80% of the controllers being used right now by console gamers have gyro, then why do I have to rely on controller emulators to use gyro in my PC games?

"In terms of build quality, sure XBox controllers are generally lesser. But they still last - I'm still rocking decade-old 360 controllers, although the batteries are mostly toast these days.

On top of that, the Xbox control standards are the only ones with OS-native support, and MS has made a much firmer commitment to providing alternate control options to people with limited mobility or other disabilities like so.[www.microsoft.com]

All in all, making judgements about which controllers are "superior" (unless we're talking about crappy Naki or Madcatz knockoffs) is no different than kb/m proponents making a blanket statement about controllers.

Just like anyone can use any input method they want, claiming one controller is overall better - and backing it up with an estimate on popularity that doesn't make any sense, given the history and context of the controllers is even worse. "

Again, I'm not saying they should not make PC games compatible with Xbox 360 controllers because I agree that universal compatibility is good. But when way more households have a DS4/Switch controller than have an Xbox One controller, I don't see why developers ONLY make their games compatible with the Xbox controller. Surely as a PC gamer, you agree that the freedom to use the controller you want is a good thing? And even if developers don't want to add compatibility to Playstation and Nintendo controllers(which again I say they should) at the very least they could allow their games to work with controller emulators. There is currently no way to use a Switch/Playstation controller with Call of Duty:Modern Warfare, short of remapping everything to keyboard/mouse controls, but that doesn't work easily because there aren't enough buttons to accommodate all of the keyboard commands. It's ridiculous that there is no practical way to use a gamepad with gyro aiming on one of gaming's highest selling franchises(even though I'm not a huge fan, personally, of Call of Duty). And it's not just CoD, there are a lot of big games that I can't use my SN30 Pro+ with like Forza Horizon 4 , The Outer Worlds, or Metro Exodus(unless maybe I rebuy them on Steam, but they were timed exclusives).

If developers don't want you to use controller emulators with their game, then they could at least add native support for Playstation/Nintendo controllers.

[Salamand3r-]

The Xbox controller is higher on every published list of game controllers I could find.

It has, as I mentioned, an 8-year head start which means, at minimum, a tie in terms of "controllers in the wild due to console sales". And again, that doesn't count the near-decade when it was literally the *only* major brand, universally supported PC controller in existence, regardless of consoles.

Again, it's also the only one that is supported under Windows as standard. If for whatever reason you don't have an internet connection, your PS4 controller won't work out of the box. Same with the Joy-Cons. And neither of those support wired connection without 3rd party software or discontinued parts.

The PS4 touchpad - despite apparently being useful to some, is one of the most maligned controller features I have ever seen. I have never seen a single gaming forum - even including PS focused ones - that consider it a good/useful function as a general consensus. A few people love it - good for them - but the vast majority have nothing good to say.

The same goes for gyro controls. You are one of two people I have ever seen publicly on Steam calling that a useful feature. Again, far be it from me to tell you want you do and don't like or find useful, but the reason you don't see massive support is because it's not widely appreciated. Hell, I own several Steam controllers, and I honestly didn't ever realize they had gyro controls - because I tried it on the PS4 and found it to be the most useless thing I'd ever used and never again looked into the functionality. But again, that's preference. Just one that is shared by a huge amount of people.

But take note - support for gyro aiming isn't even standard on the PS4 itself, where every single user is guaranteed to have it. That should tell you exactly how much call there is for the feature. And unlike other hardware features, it didn't make it onto the "required feature" list for PS5 titles.

Literally, there are 2.9 million results on "why do gyro controllers suck?" compared to a literal handful of positive posts - all of which have hundreds or thousands of people saying how wrong they are.

Pretending those are essential features in a modern controller is disingenuous, or at least misinformed.

And pretending that Xbox isn't the most commonly used PC controller is also misinformed. The last time Steam made that information public - barely two years ago - almost 70% of all controllers used by PC players with Steam were 360 or Xbone controllers. This was the period when the PS4 was really dominating the market as well - before the Xbox One S controllers launched and sold 80k in a single month. There indeed may have been some change in the last couple of years, but I will bet real money that the PS4 and Switch Pro controllers didn't go from a combined 20% of the entire PC market to even 50%.

And again, keep in mind, that even in an ecosystem that has 100% support for gyro controls - i.e. the PS4 itself - those aren't ubiquitous in games.

In the end, yes, sure - support for everything is good. But you also can't expect developers to add features for niche audiences. In raw numbers, more Steam users use MacOS than Switch controllers. More people own (total PC-compatible) VR headsets than use PS4 controllers on Steam. But you don't see MacOS ports that often, and VR isn't a super popular feature either.

The best thing Steam can do is what they did for Linux users with Proton - keep working on their own, universal, game-agnostic for controllers that developers don't need to support themselves.

[void]

The same goes for gyro controls. You are one of two people I have ever seen publicly on Steam calling that a useful feature. Again, far be it from me to tell you want you do and don't like or find useful, but the reason you don't see massive support is because it's not widely appreciated. Hell, I own several Steam controllers, and I honestly didn't ever realize they had gyro controls - because I tried it on the PS4 and found it to be the most useless thing I'd ever used and never again looked into the functionality. But again, that's preference. Just one that is shared by a huge amount of people.

Well, there is an objective way to tell how good a controller is: Aimlab scores. There aren't many videos of people attempting Aimlab with an Xbone controller. But there is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO_z-YnhM3o
This guy is using a controller emulator he programmed himself, and he has practiced a huge amount and only managed 41k. Meanwhile I was just ****ing around with my SN30 Pro+ with gyro controls using Steam's controller emulator about 10 times and scored 47k in gridshot. My highest score is in spidershot precisionwhich 49k, and I've only done it like 5 times. If you think you can get 50k in spidershot precision with an Xbone controller in less than 5 attempts, be my guest. Here's what a 50k looks like, btw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMd5T81pCCo

My scores with an analogue stick are at best 20k

[Salamand3r-]

Publicado originalmente por void:

The same goes for gyro controls. You are one of two people I have ever seen publicly on Steam calling that a useful feature. Again, far be it from me to tell you want you do and don't like or find useful, but the reason you don't see massive support is because it's not widely appreciated. Hell, I own several Steam controllers, and I honestly didn't ever realize they had gyro controls - because I tried it on the PS4 and found it to be the most useless thing I'd ever used and never again looked into the functionality. But again, that's preference. Just one that is shared by a huge amount of people.

Well, there is an objective way to tell how good a controller is: Aimlab scores. There aren't many videos of people attempting Aimlab with an Xbone controller. But there is this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO_z-YnhM3o
This guy is using a controller emulator he programmed himself, and he has practiced a huge amount and only managed 41k. Meanwhile I was just ****ing around with my SN30 Pro+ with gyro controls using Steam's controller emulator about 10 times and scored 47k in gridshot. My highest score is in spidershot precisionwhich 49k, and I've only done it like 5 times. If you think you can get 50k in spidershot precision with an Xbone controller in less than 5 attempts, be my guest. Here's what a 50k looks like, btw:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMd5T81pCCo

My scores with an analogue stick are at best 20k

Most PC players probably aren't playing precision shooters like that with a controller. Again, I get it that you do and you prefer controller and like what you like, but I'd be willing to wager that most PC players that use a controller use it for specific titles that just work better - 3rd person, platformer, fighter, etc.

I wouldn't even try to aim with a controller, no matter what kind :D I grew up on keyboard, the only console I had as a kid was an Atari, even dpads are somewhat comically foreign to me. I do use my controllers for some games that play better with them - the types listed above - but not anything that requires precision. I'd need to break 30+ years of muscle memory.

Which is why I totally sympathize - if your muscle memory is with a controller, you should have the option. But realistically it's not going to come from developers, and you will certainly never see 3rd party emulators open up since those are key to quite a few aim exploits in online shooters. Again, the best bet is for Valve to keep making their support more robust.

Back on the topic of Xbox controllers though - the Quakecon 2016 champion in Doom (2016) multiplayer - when it was still well populated and active - used an Xbox controller. To beat a lot of very high level kb/m players. I can't speak personally to how aim is on the infernal things, but at least in Doom (possibly since the devs also use Xbox controllers, as evidenced in all the live stuff they've done), it can be used to extremely great effect.

[void]

Most PC players probably aren't playing precision shooters like that with a controller. Again, I get it that you do and you prefer controller and like what you like, but I'd be willing to wager that most PC players that use a controller use it for specific titles that just work better - 3rd person, platformer, fighter, etc.

I don't prefer the controllers. I said I can get 70k on aim lab with a mouse. But I have to worry about carpal tunnel and back pain so I don't want to play that way all the time. I was saying that the SN30 Pro+ with gyro is infinitely better for aiming than an Xbone controller, and developers should not lock me out of using it because it's a Nintendo controller.

Back on the topic of Xbox controllers though - the Quakecon 2016 champion in Doom (2016) multiplayer - when it was still well populated and active - used an Xbox controller. To beat a lot of very high level kb/m players.

That's because he's good at shooters. I'm terrible at shooters and I still got almost 50k on multiple tests on Aimlab with an SN30 Pro+ with no practice.

But realistically it's not going to come from developers, and you will certainly never see 3rd party emulators open up since those are key to quite a few aim exploits in online shooters.

But why should single player games like Metro Exodus and The Outer Worlds(which didn't come out on Steam for a year) or Horizon: Zero Dawn block me from using an SN30 Pro+? I wasn't talking about using a gamepad for eSports.

[Salamand3r-]

Publicado originalmente por void:

But why should single player games like Metro Exodus and The Outer Worlds(which didn't come out on Steam for a year) or Horizon: Zero Dawn block me from using an SN30 Pro+? I wasn't talking about using a gamepad for eSports.

That's a fair question. Again though, solved if Steam makes their support more robust. It's game agnostic AFAIK.

[Ransom]

isnt it possible to remap every input settings to any controller using steam input?