Panzer Waltz

Panzer Waltz

Wraith_Magus Jan 28, 2018 @ 7:46pm
Game mechanics are far too opaque
So, my Grille M SPG is basically my best unit. She one-hit kills everything and has 150% accuracy after all the accuracy upgrades I've given her. She gets triple the damage per round than any of my other tanks, who, aside from the Sherman Mk4, basically exist to get just enough spotting to let her fire first and otherwise just sponge damage for her.

At least, that's how it worked until chapter six, when all of a sudden, all my attacks missed for no reason that is visible to me whatsoever.

This game's interface is pure garbage. It loves to show me tons of flashy effects I have zero control over and doesn't even let me skip them, but then it refuses to show me any actual data on why anything turns out the way it does. The game offers "helpful" tips on changing my team or equipment up or changing my ammo type when that's basically meaningless advice because all my purple units are so vastly superior to the blue ones other than the Churchill (that's a pure damage sponge that contributes only a couple hundred damage per battle) that it doesn't matter how badly they are matched to the enemy, I have no choice but to use them, and use the ammo type they're capable of loading. This goes double for using anything other than sabot rounds on any unit that can use them, because range is the one thing I definitely know does matter. (And the game doesn't even tell you what terrain you'll be on until after you can't change your team up....)

Everything else is a pure mystery. I can't see enemy stats. The game loves to tell me that I should use specific ammo types to cancel out specific enemy armor effects, but when I don't know what armor the enemy is using, how does that help?!

Basically, there's no point in doing anything other than slapping together my best team with the biggest numbers, hoping for the best, and hitting "skip" all the time, because there's nothing to learn from why I'm effortlessly leveling the enemy team before they get a chance to fire in one round, and suddenly can't hit the broad side of a barn the next. I even got an S rank on the boss node after getting a B rank on the standard enemy node right in front of it! Why did that happen?! Why won't the game tell me anything?!

This is on top of what the game does show being frequently flashing by too fast to read. Artillery strikes always make some sort of text and icon pop up, but only for a quarter second, so I've never been able to read it. There's some sort of thing that pops up occasionally when I get really good spotting, but I can't read what it is, because it's up for only a single frame! Apparently, it kills one enemy, though....

Whenever the game isn't constantly making a girl pop up to speak some line before LOL, JK, she's out of range, but they make her say something dramatic every time anyway, the game lags horrendously to the point that everything stays on the screen for a quarter second and is invariably buried under a dozen other things cascading over the screen. My Churchill is frequently bearing the brunt of a dozen attacks per battle, most of which resolve against her simultaneously with there being no capacity for me to tell why the enemy sometimes does large amounts of damage to her but frequently none at all even when they critical. (I can't even tell which enemy fired which shot because they all pop up at the same time!)

Please get rid of this stupid "action sequence" nonsense, and replace it with a proper text-based combat resolution screen that I can actually read! If you're going to make everything based upon under-the-hood number crunching, at least give me a datafeed that tells me actually useful information, because JUST seeing that such-and-such a unit did so much total damage when I have no idea what factors went into damage mitigation or screwed over accuracy or whatever is not helping.

Then, the game tells me that there are "hidden stats" like the hidden [MOV] stat that I have to pay attention to... HOW?! Why the ♥♥♥♥ would you hide the instructions to how to play a game I already have nearly zero control over in the first place?! In what way does that make sense?! All I know is that whether I win or lose, it has everything to do with whether I get lucky with a "forge" mechanic and hoping that whatever pops out happens to kill everything on the enemy side, and nothing to do with any actual planning on my part.
Last edited by Wraith_Magus; Jan 28, 2018 @ 9:52pm
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Showing 1-15 of 26 comments
Wraith_Magus Jan 28, 2018 @ 10:27pm 
After playing a bit longer, it seems the problem is that so-called "Lightly Armored Vehicles" are invincible, dodging 80-90% of all attacks, and having nearly any attack that hits fail against their "light" armor that stops shells that devastate the heavy tanks that usually meatshield for them.

My AP % drops from 80% to 15% when fighting "Lightly" armored vehicles.

Basically, I can't use any unit that doesn't have a turret slot because not carrying machine guns to stop the invincible APC's infantry is suicide.
Last edited by Wraith_Magus; Jan 28, 2018 @ 10:28pm
storm0545 Jan 29, 2018 @ 9:05am 
To the OP, this game has been around for 2 years now in english on mobile devices so i would suggest visiting the wiki/reddit page which has all of the story information you will need for terrain match-ups listed. The point of the game not telling you what you're going into terrain wise is it would be too easy if the game just handed you all of the information and you had a perfect team going in each and every battle. Trial and error was the mainstay for a lot of us starting out on our phones 2 years ago until we all got the reddit/wiki threads going with information. So i would suggest looking at the wiki for terrain so you can bring the right team as your spg probably had an accuracy penalty bringing its 150% accuracy more likelly down to 75% which gets as i stated got worse the closer the fight got in range.

I'll agree the interface is meh and it likes to not give enough information but you're preaching to the choir to me on that one. all i can really suggest is abuse the knowledge present on the wiki/reddit

http://metalwaltz.wikia.com/wiki/Zones vol 6 is dirt plains and forest which deff debuff spgs and buff the crap outta lavs


Wraith_Magus Jan 29, 2018 @ 12:58pm 
Originally posted by storm0545:
To the OP, this game has been around for 2 years now in english on mobile devices so i would suggest visiting the wiki/reddit page which has all of the story information you will need for terrain match-ups listed. The point of the game not telling you what you're going into terrain wise is it would be too easy if the game just handed you all of the information and you had a perfect team going in each and every battle. Trial and error was the mainstay for a lot of us starting out on our phones 2 years ago until we all got the reddit/wiki threads going with information. So i would suggest looking at the wiki for terrain so you can bring the right team as your spg probably had an accuracy penalty bringing its 150% accuracy more likelly down to 75% which gets as i stated got worse the closer the fight got in range.

I'll agree the interface is meh and it likes to not give enough information but you're preaching to the choir to me on that one. all i can really suggest is abuse the knowledge present on the wiki/reddit

http://metalwaltz.wikia.com/wiki/Zones vol 6 is dirt plains and forest which deff debuff spgs and buff the crap outta lavs

I Googled for a wiki[panzerwaltz.gamepedia.com], and it stops giving information past volume 3 part 2, which makes it pretty useless.

Saying that the game would be "too easy" if you had all the information, then saying to go look up the wiki for the information you need to know what the Hell you are doing kind of belies the problem with that argument. I know all the rules of Chess, but that doesn't make me a grandmaster champion, unless the game is like Tic-Tac-Toe in that it's so simple all strategies are blindingly obvious, then building strategies around those rules takes thought beyond that. I'm not really one who plays many mobile games, but one I do play is Fire Emblem Heroes, which notably took all the random elements out of its long-standing series, and made the game completely deterministic, running completely on base stats and skills you can see just by tapping on any unit, plus a few basic mechanics like the weapon triangle. This is deliberately done so that the different players with identical characters making the same moves can get the exact same battles. The game is still fairly simple thanks to being a mobile game, but it's capable of being quite hard when it wants to be. It's a game that has no confidence in its abilities to make

Likewise, saying that it would be easy to build your perfect team presumes I have a perfect team to build, rather than just relying upon whatever scraps of units I can cobble together from the crumbs the RNG gives me. Even trying to change out my ammo to test different kinds like the loading screen tips suggest apparently costs silver every time, so I'm punished for even trying to adapt to the mission in front of me instead of just throwing the same team at every problem and hoping for the best.

Where in the game does it say that "dirt" (by which it REALLY means "mud", this game's translation is a travesty) "forest" is a massive bane for SPGs and boon for LAVs? I've looked over the terrain effects help file in the game and on the wiki, and they just have those icons that say things like how if I get the upgrade so I have a chasis (apparently, you can have tanks that don't have a chasis, or they just start out without treads before getting upgrades or something), the firepower debuff goes away. So what you're saying is that the game is lying about those being the effects, and they're secretly hiding more game mechanics from the player just to screw them over? This isn't terrible game design HOW?!

(For that matter, what is this [MOB] hidden stat, how does it affect gameplay, and how am I to recognize which units have how much of it?)
Nazrin OP Jan 29, 2018 @ 3:02pm 
I can't tell you which maps on the story is which. But i can tell you the games team building isn't as RNG as you would think. The Gold(gold name) tanks from the gacha are low tier. Good for a start or a little boost but if you are serious about the game you will most definitly replace them. Or if their your "Waifu" they are still viable but won't have as high of stats as the higher tier tanks. Which you can build from a tech tree. But they require you to have certain other tanks made in order to build them. Good news is inventory will expand for free so you just have to collect them all. they are not consumed on building new tanks you just have to "unlock" them. And even your blues will come in handy with your base later so keep them.

Where your real power comes from is your tech research. Even after you research a tree you can still research the bonus it gives to those parts of your tanks. Your max tech level depends on your commander level. And this tech tree powers all your tanks passively. So once you start to slow down during story 4-8 you might want to focus on farming the first few maps till your research catches up. The daily maps which can only be done once a day are the best place to get corn which you should use on stamina(don't use corn on milk you can make multiple teams to run easy missions for more resources with that stamina instead gotta collect them all!). Also researching the actual ammo in the tech tree will give a bonus to that tree so even buying the armaments instead of upgrading the tech level is benificial.

But what is power without knowing how to use it? First off the maps give debuffs but more importantly they have ranges. So even if your tank isn't hit with any debuffs and the enemy team is, you can still be outplayed if your using long ranged ammo in a street map. However if the enemy is low enough level and your tech is far superior you can still pull it off.

To understand range you must first understand the 4 stages of combat. Once those 4 rounds are done the fight is over and whoever did the most damage is the winner. sorta. the first stage starts off with scouting. Where the bonoculars stat comes into play. The team with the most scout value shoots first. And if your team has way too much compared to your enemy your enemey won't fire back. Now the 3rd stage is a 2nd round of shelling. where regardless of scouting all units open fire. 3rd round is contact where the range is further reduced which means long range shots from mainly SPGs might start missing depending on your accuracy with the unit. Followed by the 4th stage Close Quarters Combat. where if you haven't kill them by now your SPGs are kinda useless.

So that's where team building comes into play. All the stats are useful. Fire Power is damage. Armor Pen is how much % of their armor you punch through. Targeting is accuracy. Armor reduces damage. Durability is MAX Hit Points. Evasion is your chance to not get hit. Stealth is your chance to be targetted by the enemy. Detection is for scout phase and if a tank with high detection is hit they increase your teams chance to fire at the target who hit them. And range which is your accuracy on the stages. don't be affraid of using 9000+ range ammo. They don't suffer much even in 5000 ranges.

If you take the time to learn how to get your heavy tank to "tank" most of the damage this can easily turn the tides of battle. Or if you want you can use a medium or light tank with a high evasion. Not so much recommened. For starters reducing your heavy tanks stealth will make them more likely to get hit and improving their detection will improve the chance of all the enemies tanks to get hit. Giving you a higher than average advantage to hit their squishier targets. Also stealth those SPG to avoid them being killed first in the shelling phase. And having a higher detection also gives your SPGs a higher chance to hit something other than their the heavy. Another veteran peice of advice is SPGs with a longer range will take priority hitting enemy tanks with the same range to their weapons. So if you have successfuly hid your SPGs and the enemy hasen't you can take our their superior fire power before it does any damage. This means that 9000yard ammo will always hit the longest shot enemy it can detect. this also means if you put far ranged ammo on a heavy tank their SPGs might consider it a priority. Keep in mind that ya, It is still RNG on what they hit. There are other things like in CQC higher evasion takes the first shots in the phase but i can't recall exactly what phase that is. But not everything in the game is pure RNG. But you can "tweek" the odds in your favor with taking the time to learn the games mechanics.

Also ya. The tutorial is bad for explaining this. Look up a guide or something. I managed to clear the whole story but then i kinda stoped playing like a year ago. So that's my experience level.

*Edit: Also PvP battles are your best source of silver. Don't feel bad you only take like 5% of their silver and you get like x10 that amount in return.*
Last edited by Nazrin OP; Jan 29, 2018 @ 3:05pm
Wraith_Magus Jan 29, 2018 @ 3:27pm 
Well, the servers are going to be wiped in two days, so I'm not too worried about saving my corn for only spending on the "right things". I'm mostly just taking the only halfway decent units I have and getting as far through the game as I can before the wipe.

Likewise, I'm researching as fast as I can, but I have a severe limit on the number of N1 and N2 plans I can get per day to actually turn into chasis or armor items, or for that matter, research new units. Hence, I'm basically just using the

Again, I understand ranges, but how much being at close range hurts my SPG is not at all clear to me. I was worried about it, but apparently, artillery works just fine in cities at ranges of 500 unitless and even the CQC 50 unitless. I again get 100% accuracy against even light tanks at super-close range in cities, but then drop down to 5% accuracy against LAVs because apparently close range only matters at 1200 unitless but not 50 unitless?

I gave my Grille the HESH ammo that drops her range from 5660 unitless down to 2970 unitless, and it didn't change her accuracy in any significant way except that she now was missing any time I took her back to the plains where she was suddenly at extreme ranges. I can absolutely crush the next few maps after the ones with the LAVs even though they're also forests just because they don't have LAVs in them. It's simply that none of my units can kill LAVs, which rather pisses me off, since MY LAVs tend to die the instant anything notices they exist. (Also, what's the point of having APCs if you don't get to carry infantry when the enemy can carry it on their heavy tanks?!)

Again, if this is just range, what are the rules for being too close? Why doesn't the game tell me the ACTUAL rules?!



I'm not complaining that the game is too hard, I still "won" those battles because I've definitely figured out that just stacking reactive armor on a heavy tank means I don't take damage. I'm comlpaining that this game's interface is garbage and it doesn't explain any of the rules.

This is supposed to be a beta test finding problems with the game, and it is a MASSIVE problem that the game doesn't bother to explain any of the rules for the game in-game. What things that it tells you about are things like, "range is important, sometimes being too close means you do less damage." OK,HOW CLOSE is too close?! What types of ammo are effected by that? How much less damage or how much less accurate do I become? What steps are there to counteract that? The game just shrugs its shoulders and says that there's a [MOB] stat that exists but won't give any information about. That is not good game design, it doesn't "make the game harder" by "making you guess", it's just stupidity that forces people to data mine the game to understand the rules and then read the wiki.
Wraith_Magus Jan 30, 2018 @ 12:48am 
And to add to that, I just lost a bunch of the PvP "Clash" battles in a row, seemingly just because I was winning too many battles. I was fighting against basically the exact same tanks I was defeating before, but this time, all my attacks either bounced off or did 1/5 of a tank's durability in damage, while when I was doing it before, I was one-shotting them. What's the difference? Well, besides about 5 levels (the only stats I can see), it's mostly in the fact that these next guys are obviously using much better equipment like actually having a chasis, which massively boost their invisible stats.

So, again, what's the point in even having a battle sequence at all when there's no information to be gained from it whatsoever? It's just boring nonsense that focuses upon all the wrong things, giving me close-up cut-in views of my scout unit that's completely out of range and was the last dozen times she got her cut-in, right before a dozen other attacks that are meaningful are resolved simultaneously after a big spike in lag that makes it all disappear in a single frame.

The game would be better served being an all-text spreadsheet game, since at least then, I could actually see what was going on, and maybe figure out the math formulas at work. As it stands, this game forces you to sit through boring cutscene battles you have no control over and which tells you nothing, and I find myself picking up my phone and playing some Fire Emblem Heroes just to forestall the boredom. It's not a good thing when I need to keep other games handy to spare me the boredom of your game.
Nazrin OP Jan 30, 2018 @ 2:21am 
I can see how you would be frustrated with the battle cut ins. If this is an older version of the game odds are it isn't optimised at all. And not to mention in order to skip them you have to clear the mission with full stars or something like that. I forget. There should be an option at the end of battle to tell you how many shots from who missed. From what unit and how much damage it did and took from what unit if you click/tap on the unit you want to see.

I'm not really here to tell you to stay but i'm trying to give you helpful advice to make your time easier. That said i can't actually give you solid advice on how much accuracy you need to hit an LAV. They indeed have a need for speed. If they were easy to hit they would literrally be useless. best worst advice. Put more accuracy on your equipment. But odds are that isn't really an option because you're still early game.

Equipment from the gacha actually expands based on your commander level. So equipment that gives your units infantry does exist. And from memory i think you can add them to your heavy tanks from a green extrenal slot. However most of those slots are only added once you promote your units even then each tank has different slots. And you won't see the option for a while into the game. Not saying you should put infantry on a heavy tank. When the tank takes a hit the infantry will die and do less damage. Assuming any actually survive to CQC.

And about PvP yes. You don't actually know what you are getting into. You basically just have to hope the enemy doesn't have jacked up stats or equipment. It's very plausable they were lucky with pulls from the gacha and have upgraded their equipment about 3 times. And your shots would do nothing even if they were a lower level(not to mention possible tech research). That is assuming you don't have any equipment. The reason you got your butt kicked after winning is because when you win you earn medals. And the game will find oponents of similar medal count. It's not uncommon to find teams of 1 defence unit simply so they can lose medals to fight weaker opponents for easy silver. Sometimes you might get attacked by someone with one unit so they can throw away medals to fight easier opponents. So even if you lose it's still a boon to keep you in your place. Even though the lack of silver from losing is annoying.
Wraith_Magus Jan 30, 2018 @ 12:12pm 
Actually, thanks to lack of players, the game is matching me up against dummy accounts most of the time (when lower-ranked, I was getting the same level 7 team of a Churchill, Renault B1, M7 Priest, and a T24 over and over again, even when I was level 20). I can easily avoid losses and win easy silver when I'm attacking just by looking for familiar teams with "##" at the start of their names, even when they outlevel me. The problem is that other people can attack my Lv 25 units with Lv 35 units when I sign off, and my tanks go from heavily armored to tissue paper because of invisible stats.

Again, I'm not saying this as a complaint about not understanding things, I'm saying this as someone who's supposed to be beta testing saying how the interface could really use improvement.

So far as optimiazation goes, I also notice that it takes up a full core all the time, even just sitting in base when minimized. This is presumably one of those games that is not only single-cored, but also never idles, so it constantly burns CPU, even just waiting for you to click somewhere. The game seems to lag heavily any time a character should pop in or a graphic should pop up, and can even delay quite a long time when trying to play voice lines, so I presume there's a cacheing issue, as well, and the game visibly hiccups trying to load things from the hard drive.
Nazrin OP Jan 30, 2018 @ 1:14pm 
I'm not here to tell you to not complain. I think constructive complaints are better than pretending everything is fine. But I felt one of your problems was simply a lack of understanding something that might be considered gameplay more than being a technical issue and i wanted to be more informative than "Just read the wiki". Instead of questioning how much someone knows i tend to just assume they know nothing and skip waiting on them to tell me how much they know. But if you still have any questions i can attempt to answer them.

Right now i'm just waiting for it to launch on february 1st so i can experinece all these performance issues first hand. The only reason i quit the game when i did was because i wanted to spend less time on my tablet. But now that it's on PC I can't use that as an excuse anymore.
Wraith_Magus Jan 30, 2018 @ 3:02pm 
I don't think having some sort of balancing factor where you win until you get too high-ranked and then have to fall back to reach a balance is necessarily wrong, although it can be frustrating to have to lose to be able to win. (Also, why is every victory worth the same number of "medals" or whatever that ranking point thing is? Shouldn't S-rank victories prove you need to fly further up the ranks than a just-barely-made-it-through B-rank victory, which proves you are right where you should be?) The problem I see, however, is that this game has an achievement ticker that requires you to win 60 battles in a row, including defensive battles, which is an extremely tall order unless you're either blitzing ahead of everyone else by playing more than any other player so that no player can outmatch you, and choosing to only attack the weak (which is obivously only going to be successful for one person unless they manage to collude and agree to only attack AI accounts), or else to get up to level cap units, then deliberately drop down the ranks so that they can win a huge number of battles in a row while they skyrocket back up the ranks.

Making the achievement based upon total number of clashes, and then having a more reasonable number of "in a row" wins, or "in a row" wins that only count offensive wins, and disregard defensive losses would take away this demand to openly game the system.
Last edited by Wraith_Magus; Jan 30, 2018 @ 3:03pm
Wraith_Magus Jan 30, 2018 @ 3:12pm 
Originally posted by Nazrin OP:
The only reason i quit the game when i did was because i wanted to spend less time on my tablet. But now that it's on PC I can't use that as an excuse anymore.

Well, it runs minimized, so if you want to start a battle and then go to another window, you certainly can, so in that regard, it's not that bad as a PC game. Generally, though, I find a lot of mobile games to be more enjoyable as a portable game than a PC one, because the interface tends to be badly optimized for PC (left and right click do the same thing, here), and they tend to be more grindy and take longer, which isn't a problem for a waiting-in-line game, but can get annoying for PC when I have my full attention on it. Like I said, because things like clashes don't let you skip battles until you hit commander rank 35, I pretty much just whip out my phone or gameboy and play some Fire Emblem while waiting for the battle to be over.

Generally, I find watching battles to be frustrating, anyway. I get angry seeing my best units that can one-shot or nearly one-shot enemies waste their attacks on an enemy with 5 HP left, while my offensively almost useless Churchill tinks a shot off of their full-health heavies for 100 HP. Watching the battle, I think it's going horribly and I'm failing it, then the battle ends and it says hooray, I got an S rank. I'm just happier all around if I skip battles and read the transcripts afterwards.
Nazrin OP Jan 30, 2018 @ 4:25pm 
I enjoy watching the battles from time to time to see how my team stacks up. Not so much when i'm grinding dailies with alt teams. The good news is eventually you can toggle skip to skip the whole thing and just collect your reward, only if your are repeating the battle. The end screen info doesn't show you how successful your scout phase was so if i had the skip option open i would usually skip first check the information and then replay the battle. Or if i'm bored i would just watch the fights. I fully intend to play the game in windowed mode. Not sure if this is an issue but some games that don't utilize your graphics card run better in windowed at the games native resoultion. Or that is my experience anyhow.

I was never collabed with anyone or intentionally dropped my rank and i was lucky enough to get that achievement on my own. But i was wise and didn't attack people i didn't think i could beat. But i can agree that it would be difficult but i disagree that only the top players can do it. And agree that people will handicap themselves specifically to earn it. But you also have to consider that lower level players are going to have less silver to take from so even though you are winning the higher players can pay out way more. And i think the PvP ladder is fine for one simple reason. No ladder reward to give the top player more goods than what they paid for each week/month. In my mind this is better because they never push you to be better than you have to be. And the top player doesn't just stay on top because they are being hand fed rediculous amounts of resources. Other than that i can agree it's not perfect but i prefer this system over an even more broken one. And the way the map rotates in the PvP zone is incentive to not camp the map you are good in, I like that too. I think in later patches they added a star level to units in PvP so you can get an idea on the average level of their equipment. Without actually seeing the average level of their equipment. I find it exciting to not always know what you are fighting. It just makes some wins that much more enjoyable.

Also i don't think you get more medals for beating people with an S rank or not. It's predetermined on what medal amount the enemy has. If you attack a lower medal person you get less medals. If you attack someone with more you get more medals. The opposite happens when you lose. In other words if you lose to a person with a lower medal count you will lose alot of medals. Where if you challenge someone with more you lose less. Or at least that's how i remember it. Could be wrong. I think i haven't played in what feels like 2 years. Looking forward to spending about 3 months to max my base!

Another tip. sometimes its easier to guage your enemy based on their medals from the win. if they give you alot they are probably powerful. If they give you less they are probably weaker. And not to mention picking on the weaker people gets you less medals so you can just keep picking on them and progress slower up the ladder.

And with all the server bots in the system feeding medals, they will keep the medal range wide.
Wraith_Magus Jan 30, 2018 @ 5:33pm 
Originally posted by Nazrin OP:
Also i don't think you get more medals for beating people with an S rank or not. It's predetermined on what medal amount the enemy has.

I know, what I'm saying is that the game should throttle how many medals you get by your battle rating.

The game as it stands makes players fly up the ranks until they start losing, then makes the plummet just as fast. If the purpose of the mechanic is to get players to find their actual place in the rankings and give them matchmaking that is generally on their level, then if someone is getting B and C grades, they're in the right place in the rankings, while an S rank proves they need to be much higher, and as such, the mechanic would be better able to serve its purpose if getting an S rank gave you twice the projected number of medals, while a B rank gave you half, or some similar system.

Likewise, when I talk about the need to win a large chain of battles for an achievement, the problem is asking what sort of play behavior a mechanic like that incentivizes. (Because rules in games exist for the purpose of directing player behavior. From a game design standpoint, every rule or reward exists to guide player behavior, so you should be able to look at every rule and determine what kind of behavior the developer wants to encourage players to have.)

To give a counterexample, Fire Emblem Fates (which is a 3DS game, BTW), the multiplayer battle function rewards the player who invades other player's castles if they win the battle by siezing the opposing player's throne (which they do by fighting a battle in their custom castle, and the reward is the ability to buy a skill the other player possess on one of their defenders for themselves), but the defender gets the same reward ("battle points" towards special rewards) completely regardless of victory or loss. Hence, players set up their units with the most exotic skills and then set their defenders to not attack, and leave a clear, obvious path to the throne so that even vastly inferior enemy forces could sieze their throne effortlessly, because that gave players tremendous incentive to keep hitting those castles up for easy wins and access to powerful skills.

Meanwhile, in Fire Emblem Heroes (the mobile game), you play strategy RPG battles on maps when you attack, but your team is AI-controlled on defense, making it much easier to attack. (Although because there is a 10% score penalty for losing a unit, defenders functionally win and attackers often surrender if they lose even a single unit.) You need to win seven consecutive battles to post a high score on the attack. (Every "season" of the arena lasts a week, and your highest score for the week is posted and compared. Every player is in a tier, and you are ranked within your tier. A certain percentage of the best players in the tier go up a tier, and another percentage drop a tier based upon rankings, with the highest tier only letting the top 30% of players in the top tier manage to stay in that tier, and the other 70% of the top tier having to drop back down a tier and fight their way back up.) On defense, however, you only need to win once to get the maximum possible reward for arena defense. You don't get rewarded for doing well on defense (other than possibly denying a rival a win that might have given them a better score than you) so as soon as you get even a single win, it hardly matters at all. Even if you get no defensive wins, only your offensive score counts towards your ranking and most of the rewards - defensive score matters only for the defense rewards, which are just 900 feathers per week.

The main thing about FEH's arena mode is that merely winning every single battle isn't enough - you get matched based upon the rating of your units, and the score you get from victories are based upon the rating of the units you defeat. This means it demands you take an team that is actually worse in battle to get a higher rating (because rating is based upon raw total stats and skill costs, not actual utility - garbage skills like rising flame are higher-rated than extremely deadly ones like moonbow or glimmer) to defeat higher-rated enemies, because even getting a flawless string of victories doesn't matter unless you can get a higher offensive score than the other players in your tier. (This is also what encourages whaling - duplicate characters of the specific character you want to boost will give each character an extra level above the level cap of 40 up to "Level 40+10". Naturally, rare characters have higher base ratings, so you need to get duplicates of rares.)

By contrast, in this game, defensive battles are more serious and take more consideration than offensive battles (which you can always just reroll). They're also the one where you can actually choose the ground you can defend, pushing that even more into how you plan. (The current location to defend is 3000 unitless range, so I swapped in the Howitzer, even though she's an objectively weaker unit than my short-range LAV on paper.) However, you still just run into that wall that the better you do, the more they stack better opponents against you, so it's ultimately futile unless you've managed to make a literally unbeatable team (which basically requires being end-game, since any time someone can just have a tem from further into the game than you with much better tech, you just can't compete). (EDIT: Just checking in after posting this, I lost a battle with my Lv 24-27 team against a team of Lv 37-40 units that were the exact same units I always use in a E-grade failure where only one shot of mine dealt damage... Which shows the problem with the matchmaking right there.)

There's a difference there, where even when I'm not advancing in FEH's arena, I'm still at least winning the invidual battles. Here, you lose no matter what you do, even when you've basically done everything right.
Last edited by Wraith_Magus; Jan 30, 2018 @ 5:49pm
Nazrin OP Jan 31, 2018 @ 3:02am 
I've played Fire Emblem Heroes(Mobile) And i know exactly what you are talking about. And while i agree that from a balancing persepective keeping people in a tiered and structured ladder does keep you fighting equally powerful teams. A big difference is the inclusion of bots in Panzer Waltze's "PvP" battles. Even if you are the strongest Player there will still be NPC teams in the system stronger than you to prevent you from getting all the medals and only picking on player number 2 your whole life(which is not the case because there is a protection state when attacked, i am exagerating) because the game can't find anyone with a similar medal count. And from my perspective it's not about winning because you have done everything right. Unlike Fire Emblem Heroes you reach lvl 40 and your basically done with stat growth without inheriting passives from other units. So the system can find more players to match you with. And the evolving weekly tiers will divide the skill levels of the players. In Panzer Waltz even after you reach level cap. You are still progressing your tech research. So once you hit that max lvl of... i want to say 90... Even if you fight a team of lvl 90 maidens the difference in power even if you are the same team with the same equipment they can easily defeat you with their better research. This means technically you can do nothing wrong and still fail.

The games more of a long haul than just hitting end game and getting the best stats. As far as i would think maxing your stats is nearly impossible which is what makes any maiden team viable(surprisingly even blue maidens). And even though i don't see why they can't add tieres like bronze silver gold. And lock players into their tiers. The only issue is eventually it will be pointless. Because progression is so wide in power levels that eventually gold or platinum or supreme super commander will not be relevant at all. And i don't see why it would be important to go through all the work to prevent people who are just going to shoot themselves in the foot just to win a few consecutive battles. If anything I would think it would be harmful, Imagine that you reach gold from silver and now even the NPC teams are beating you and you can't go back because there is a wall there. And the only reason you got there was because you were attacking players who stoped their medal progression to not reach gold by having weak defense teams. That would be a nightmare for some. Even though i think that situation would be so rare its point is mute. Anything is possible.

And I'm basically saying the ladder isn't based on Rank it's based on rating. You are where you land based on your teams "power level" and not so much on your skill level to preform at that level. And the top players rating is going to go high and higher but his rank will stay the same. In theory i think this system works well for panzer watlz. And your only real instenive is to steal silver from the players who have more. And who has more silver than the players who can afford powerful teams?

I would also like to mention that even when you lose medals you are still giving them away to the person who beat you. Thus moving them up the ladder faster while pushing you down. This gives that situation where if someone is too strong they still won't go down the ladder unless they intentionally handicap themselves.

If anything this game will teach everyone to accept the concept of accepting defeat. And to work hard daily to earn your progression. And even if someone drops their medal count they still have to regulate their win/lose and they can do this easily by having a weak defence team which would be a boon for people looking for easy wins.

I also feel i should mention i may be talking about research like it's the holy grail of power. But once you finish the story you get access to other ways to power your units. Assuming the patches for those features are in. But reserach will progress as long as your have commander levels to earn. Not to mention once your commander and Head Quarters level is high enough you get access to a factory to RNG make equipment(as well as tanks/Maidens) to improve your stats even further. Because to max equipment you need litteral thousands if not ten thousands of the same item. And that's only for one slot.

As far as i see the whole consecutive achievement as just that. An achievement to make you feel special and not a requirement of success or direction of gameplay. Just to give players that feel of "Woooo i did it!". And not so much as an instruction on how you should be playing the game. And I do understand that some players are a "Completionist". And i encourage them to give it their best shot by any means neccessary. I can also understand why you feel it would make people think they had to do it. Some people don't like not being able to do something when the game says "do this".

And even if it looks like i'm just trying to counter your points I still think your thoughts are worth sharing. And my only real criticism is towards the game is lack of story updates when i played and the optimization and maybe the odd grammar mishap. And i can't state any because i haven't played the game in years and i know that testing phases are just for making sure the games operational. But i think the games still worth playing if you enjoy it.
Wraith_Magus Jan 31, 2018 @ 4:34am 
The thing is, games are just sets of rules and goals that exist to guide player behavior. Players want to achieve their goals, which usually means winning and getting validation from the game.

To go back to Fire Emblem Heroes as an example, I have completed all the story missions and chain challenge versions of the story missions and so on and so forth. I basically get no new content outside of new Grand Hero Battles and the (fortunately becoming more frequent) Tempest Trials. Arena mode is basically the only place an end-game player can feel consistent challenge. Even the extremely difficult Infernal mode Grand Hero Battles have solutions on YouTube that use nothing but F2P units.

The rewards for being in tier 20 (the highest tier) are kind of trivial. Initially, you ONLY got feathers (used for upgrading common units to higher rarity) for winning in arena, which meant that you could only get the biggest prizes once you'd already proven that you clearly don't need them anymore.

However, people don't need a prize to want to be in first place, even if it doesn't even confer a bragging rights reward when the rankings are wiped away almost immediately for the next week.

People just want to win instinctively, so they'll whale and spend tons of money making a Lv 40+10 seasonal limited-time-only unit, even when it doesn't even give them a rational in-game benefit above simply not winning sometimes. Those whales are driven by an overriding sense of desire to always win and always have the absolute perfect theory-crafted units at all time, buying more and more new characters as the power creep makes older units obsolete. (Hey, does anyone remember the time when Takumi was supposedly so powerful that people were scared of him? Yeah, I didn't get it, either. It's like they hadn't heard of Reinhardt before.)

Those achievements and that system of making players fail in their chain in Panzer Waltz are rules that exist to create the sense that players have done something wrong and failed at the game because their team lost. Maybe that's not what was intended, but if that wasn't intended, then the developers don't know what they're doing, because that's absolutely what the system they created does. I mean, if you just hit the replay button, then at the end, your girls start crying and apologizing for letting you down while they play the sad music. Why would that happen if not to tell you that you screwed up and should feel bad about it?

For that matter, why is there a "Retaliate" button? What possible reason could there be for a big red button that functionally says "get revenge on the bastard that did this to you" other than to encourage you to feel aggrieved at your loss? From a purely rational standpoint, there's no reason you'd ever want to punch it, because what surer way to lose your silver than to deliberately pick a fight with someone who's already proven themselves stronger than you? That button exists purely because they are knowingly and deliberately trying to take advantage of the instinctive desire of players to want to avenge a loss. It's extremely difficult to come up with any way to interpret the actions of the developers in any way other than to say that they were trying to make you feel that a loss in the clash system was a wrong that needed righting... but then gave you no actual means of righting it. That's the problem I'm highlighting, here: The game tries to get you riled up and frustrated to get you motivated to do something, but it doesn't have a logical outlet for it.

Defeat in games, especially in competitive spaces, is part of gaming, and especially the idea of getting revenge against those players, but there's a key part of that: The loser has to understand why they lost, and see how they can overcome that mistake and defeat their opponent the next time they meet. That's how competitive gameplay loops work and keep players addicted. That's just not possible in this game, however. (At least, not anywhere below the level where just making stronger tanks by grinding more isn't an option, and you actually have to start theorycrafting.) Again, this is why FEH does this better; you can see what the opponent has in FEH, and understand why you lost, and when you see some new build you never thought of before, it's not impossible for you to crib their notes and copy it. (For example, my horse emblem team has Eldigan with double Fury from his refined weapon, and after seeing an opponent use the new Brash Assault seal with Desperation on Double Fury Eldigan, I realized the new synergy that seal opened up. Since I was using Eldigan as a tanky red to support my Gronblade+ Cecilia, it's a natural fit to throw him in as a fury-desperation blitz attacker with Brash Assault to make up for middling speed.) That, however, requires being able to see what stats and equipment that unit has, and again that brings up the problem of not being able to see these things in this game! You don't know why you lost, you just lose because shut up you did, and there's nothing to learn from the event, and there's no hope of setting this wrong right other than lowering your ranking so you go back to winning. See how this breaks the feedback loop these mechanics are generally employed to create?

That's why it's a problem when you create that system that punishes you for things beyond your control. Unlike with FEH, where it's an incentive to get you to open up your wallet and go for those shiny new characters with a few more spins of the gacha, there's simply nothing you can ever do to "make things right" and get a bunch of wins, other than deliberately fall in the ranks by losing... which isn't exactly getting that winning streak that players are conditioned to want, itself. The game just tells you that you screwed up because of something that isn't your fault and there's no way to make it right, not even trying to spend money. That just seems to be flawed game design, because again, the purpose of all the rules and goals in games is to condition player behavior one way or the other.

When you add in an achievement that explicitly tells players to want to get 60 consecutive wins including defensive wins, then it's basically impossible to think it's not deliberate. They could easily have left that achievement a "get X number total wins" or a "get X number offensive wins", and made it possible to get that achievement without explicitly making players have to adapt their playstyle to achieve the objective set out for them by the game's reward system and rules. They didn't, however, they explicitly want to make a defensive loss just as bad as an offensive one, to make players paranoid about losses and strive to do things to forestall them... but those things don't really exist beyond matching tank type to the terrain. You're just inevitably going to rank up faster than your actual power grows unless you're deliberately avoiding clashes altogether to avoid winning.

(Also, this is unrelated, but I find that the dummy/AI enemies tend to be easier than player teams of equivalent levels and have nearly twice as much silver, at that.... But then, I deliberately spend all my silver on whatever's at the port or upgrading armor on third-string tanks just so I'm not worth robbing, and I'm sure other players do the same.... Because that's what the game's system of being robbed encourages, now isn't it?)
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