What are your thoughts on the new horror segments?

[Necrophobia]

Title

[Iris Fulgur]

Originally posted by Dr.Gonzo:

Happy for it to be creepy. Absolutely not happy for the insta-fail stealth sections where you can't see a thing. This is not the gameplay I adored in the original game, and indeed in the ring-world section. The first section of the DLC is fantastic, as soon as they start introducing the dream world it becomes a chore and I barely want to finish it, the only thing that will pull me through is a desire to know the story, not to actually play it.

You can literally make the same argument for the anglerfish in the base game. In fact, the anglerfish are worse...
Also, if you're having trouble with the sections, maybe look for different ways around your problems? Save for one, every other area can be skipped in some way with enough prior knowledge about the area, similar to the anglerfish. Think about your destination, and try and find every possible way to get there, there may be some you've overlooked!

[ItsDarthChaos]

I dunno... Honestly, I think people are hating on this part of the game way more than it really deserves. Am I a big horror fan? Not in particular... And I can absolutely see why people would be upset about it being a part of the game... But I have to say, even for being the absolute coward that I am, I enjoyed exploring the dream world. The atmosphere and mechanics both environmental and non, are very well executed. Essentially... I hate this section, but for ALL the right reasons. XD

[Iris Fulgur]

Originally posted by ItsDarthChaos:

I dunno... Honestly, I think people are hating on this part of the game way more than it really deserves. Am I a big horror fan? Not in particular... And I can absolutely see why people would be upset about it being a part of the game... But I have to say, even for being the absolute coward that I am, I enjoyed exploring the dream world. The atmosphere and mechanics both environmental and non, are very well executed. Essentially... I hate this section, but for ALL the right reasons. XD

Yup. Exactly. I actually hate horror a LOT. Most horror games rely on cheap scares and unfair mechanics. Echoes of the Eye actually has neither. The scares are never cheap, as you have ample opportunity to prepare for them and see them coming, and while the AI seems unfair at first, it's actually a very reasonable behavior pattern that makes the inhabitants feel intelligent, while still being manageable with enough observation to sneak past, if you want to. (though, as has been mentioned, you don't even have to)

[Trevor Fox]

Originally posted by Iris Fulgur:

Actually, you can only see the lanterns if they're not being hidden; their geometry has nothing to do with it. The owls are an intelligent race, and know that if there's an intruder, their lights give them away. That's why they use the Lanterns in the Woodlands area, but not in the Cove or Canyon. In the Woodlands, they don't know you're in the area, they're just making their way to the lodge, so they're using their lanterns to navigate. In the Lodge or Cove however, they know the lights have been extinguished, something that is only done to access the forbidden archives. So they actively patrol while keeping their lanterns hidden for that exact reason you mentioned, to make it unfair for whoever is trying to break in, relying on their night-vision to check tighter corridors while being on the lookout for any other sources of light that might be the intruder. It feels very much intentional, and changing that would make them feel much less intelligent. (I'd argue fright mode turned off doesn't even do that, it just makes them feel gentler/less aggressive)

Originally posted by Iris Fulgur:

This. 100% this. The core of this DLC is uncovering the secrets of a race actively working to keep those secrets hidden, literally attempting to take them to their grave. They're nocturnal, so they use that to their advantage. They keep their history locked away in areas they "know" outsiders can't access without alerting them, with the information of how to even access those secrets being locked in one-way rooms that only age and decay has created exits out of. But they're not excessively violent. Creepy as all heck, to be sure, but that's nothing new in Outer Wilds.
I don't love horror, and learning that I could have circumvented a TON of it in hindsight really sucks, but... well, it's also really cool too! And completely lines up with the rest of the game. Like getting to the Black Hole Forge by flying up to it before falling into the Black Hole because you parked poorly, or constantly trying and failing to enter the Sun Station from the outside because that thing actively opposes all attempts to dock on it, only to realize there's a super simple entrance to both located on Ash Twin. In fact, there's so much hindsight helps in those sections of the DLC that the achievement to reach all three archives in a single loop is actually one of the easiest achievements in the game if planned out and routed correctly

I really enjoyed the stealth sections and was wide-eyed and spooked while going through them. It was a great experience, especially getting around them.

I also wanted to quote these replies because while I enjoyed those sections, I never thought about them in this light before (with the aliens actively hiding their lanterns and guarding their info). I thought that was some neat insight!

EDIT: Also, the stealth sections remind me very much of the Silent Realm from Skyward Sword. It's that same type of tension.

[zzymyn]

Personally, I didn't like the dream world at all until I learned about the matrix mode. Trying to map out areas with a tiny area light or a pinpoint snail's pace spotlight was just annoying. Once I figured out the matrix mode (I did Endless Canyon's archive first), it made the rest so much better because I could scout ahead and actually figure out the layout of the places.

My problem is the game gives you all these cool tools (ship, jetpack, scout, flashlight, signalscope), but then takes them all away and makes it pitch black. There were pitch black areas in the base game (like Ember Twin), but that felt better because:

• It makes physical sense. Inside Ember Twin there's no sun, so it makes sense that there's no light. In the dream world the sky has light! But still the landscape is pitch black.
  
• You had a destination in mind before going in.
  
• You had your flashlight, scout's light and jetpack to assist.
  
• If you really got stuck, just go to a different planet for a while.

My thoughts on each of the areas:

Shrouded Woodlands

The start of this area is tedious, trying to walk around a pitch black forest with water you can fall in, but the owl area is the best of the three. Sneaking behind them as they go down the cave and to their house was tense and cool. Once you get there, it's obvious you can't sneak past them to the fireplace, so you know you have to look for a different solution.

Starlit Cove

I did this area after already figuring out the matrix mode, so it was really easy. I'd just put down my lamp, scout ahead, then come back with the lamp and continue. Once you watch the owls in matrix mode for a while you realize how easy they are to dodge.

Endless Canyon

Walking around the maze-like house with no light was again tedious. Also when you blow out the lights doors open so the layout changes, so you can't really scout ahead.

My first encounter with the owls here was a legitimate jump-scare too. I had blown out the lights and was just wandering around the house trying to find my way around, then one must have come up behind me because I didn't see any of them until BAM, it grabbed me from behind.

Unlike Shrouded Woodlands though, sneaking past them is actually possible (plus the layout changes, making it more enticing to explore the newly unlocked rooms), so I wasted a while trying to do that before giving up and going for the other solution.

TL,DR

Dark bad, put gamma to max, matrix mode good.

[Gilben]

Originally posted by Iris Fulgur:

The scares are never cheap, as you have ample opportunity to prepare for them and see them coming

Except for the whole not being able to see anything issue. That's what I had a problem with. People keep saying stuff about observing the enemy patterns but I literally could not. "Just outrun them once you see them" doesn't work either if AGAIN, I can't see them.

To repeat: the vision radius is so small and it's literally impossible for me to see outside of it. Maybe you guys had slightly different graphics options or brighter monitors or something similar, but for myself and many others we just CANNOT SEE.

[Ukatan Hunter]

Tedious, feels like a slog, trial and error approach with heavy punish, mostly linear. Nothing like the original game. How am I supposed to explore and find things if I am freaking blind?

[Iris Fulgur]

Originally posted by zzymyn:

Personally, I didn't like the dream world at all until I learned about the matrix mode. Trying to map out areas with a tiny area light or a pinpoint snail's pace spotlight was just annoying. Once I figured out the matrix mode (I did Endless Canyon's archive first), it made the rest so much better because I could scout ahead and actually figure out the layout of the places.

Same experience here, actually! On the one hand, I don't recommend trying to do the Canyon's stealth section first, as it's definitely the most complex of the three. On the other, managing to do that one first gives you the best scouting tool in the entire area, trivializing the other two. Overall, I'd still recommend doing it first overall, because...

Originally posted by zzymyn:

Unlike Shrouded Woodlands though, sneaking past them is actually possible (plus the layout changes, making it more enticing to explore the newly unlocked rooms), so I wasted a while trying to do that before giving up and going for the other solution.

Actually, you don't even need to sneak past them to activate the bridge. You can actually go around them without ever activating the bridge, or even going to that side of the Valley after turning on the lights. It's not obvious, as it seems to be meant as a reward for exploration, but it's worth hinting people towards if they DO have trouble with the stealth sections of the game. Unfortunately, for me, this was discovered in hindsight, as I didn't realize the second way even existed due to me not exploring the area enough myself. But that's my fault, not the game's.

Originally posted by Gilben:

Originally posted by Iris Fulgur:

The scares are never cheap, as you have ample opportunity to prepare for them and see them coming

Except for the whole not being able to see anything issue. That's what I had a problem with. People keep saying stuff about observing the enemy patterns but I literally could not. "Just outrun them once you see them" doesn't work either if AGAIN, I can't see them.

To repeat: the vision radius is so small and it's literally impossible for me to see outside of it. Maybe you guys had slightly different graphics options or brighter monitors or something similar, but for myself and many others we just CANNOT SEE.

We must have very different approaches to horror games, because every horror game I ever play, the FIRST thing I do is walk straight into the monster/jumpscare to experience it on my own terms. That was how I immediately got familiar with how Focus works to draw them, as well as the radius at which they start chasing, (which, again, is disabled in reduced frights) and over the next couple attempts, when they'd start using their own lanterns to search after spotting you. From there, I was able to learn more and more about drawing them to an area, then sneaking past them using their lights to see my own surroundings. (since their lanterns also cast light, you can even turn around if they're focusing on you and see the immediate area even while concealed)
But then again, all of this is practically moot, since there are ways to avoid and circumvent most areas with them in the game using knowledge of the environments that you CAN gather before the stealth sections start, the real issue is not having any way for the game to step in and help get you out of a brute-force mindset many seemed to fall into, myself included.

[Iris Fulgur]

Originally posted by Noobmasser:

Tedious, feels like a slog

This is the most valid criticism I've really heard about the areas. Even if you've got good routes around the area and know the different shortcuts to get around all the stealth sections, you still move soooo sloooow. And unlocking the shortcuts requires visiting each fire in the real world, which all reset with the time loop, so if you're not done, you've got to do all the unlocks over again. I'm tempted to time myself to see how long it would take to unlock every shortcut even knowing where they all are, and I'm willing to bet it will STILL be over 6-7 minutes, and that's 1/4 of the loop just GETTING them unlocked, then you're on a time crunch to explore what you need to. Even having a run button replace the thruster button in those areas would have been nice. Just make it so you can't use it while concealing or focusing and it changes almost nothing.

[Songbird]

The biggest thing that I wish I knew going into it is that nothing in this world makes attempts to actually kill you, just very gently or mundanely wake you up, like blowing out your flame, with one exception that you kind of have to trigger intentionally. Getting caught the first time was a big relief in that regard.

[Mr. Nobody]

Honestly the main reason the stealth sections are stupid is because they make no sense. If the owls are supposed to be patrolling the area why would they all be wandering around places that have multiple routes for you to bypass them. There are blatantly obvious choke points they could just stand at and make it impossible to sneak past them. Instead it just makes them seem like complete morons and is completely immersion breaking.

It would have been way better if they had the owls guarding chokepoints in a way that is clearly and blatantly obvious it's impossible to stealth by them and then force a non-stealth puzzle solution. Endless Canyon/Shrouded Forest already have those non-stealth solutions baked in so the game doesn't even need to change anything.

[Wondervice]

They were insanely annoying.
First of all, they are not horror. The first time I spotted one of the strangers, I instantly ran up to them so we could communicate. I was excited. Then it pushed me out of the dream and I went "Awwww. Why?"
Then I learned the rules and it just became a really boring, annoying stumbling in the dark simulator.

One of the reasons I adored Outer Wilds was the navigating 3D spaces - in space! Planets and vacuum and weather and cool new worlds. I was absolutely giddy for the first 1/3d of the DLC. Then I got to stumbling slowly in the dark on the mystical forest videogame leve and I almost quit the game. l want my sci-fi adventure and this is not it.

Yeah, I know, technically it's VR so it's still sci-fi even though it very obviously isn't. I don't care.
It was a HUGE disappointment.

[TG2333]

The "I experienced this one thing before and I never want it to change" crowd are so cringe.

[Songbird]

Originally posted by Mr. Nobody:

Honestly the main reason the stealth sections are stupid is because they make no sense. If the owls are supposed to be patrolling the area why would they all be wandering around places that have multiple routes for you to bypass them. There are blatantly obvious choke points they could just stand at and make it impossible to sneak past them. Instead it just makes them seem like complete morons and is completely immersion breaking.

It would have been way better if they had the owls guarding chokepoints in a way that is clearly and blatantly obvious it's impossible to stealth by them and then force a non-stealth puzzle solution. Endless Canyon/Shrouded Forest already have those non-stealth solutions baked in so the game doesn't even need to change anything.

None of the areas require any real stealth at all, actually. I treated all owls guarding sections you have to pass through as impassible (because it felt way too hard to get past them) and found alternate routes for all, without using any knowledge from outside the game or finding any hidden techniques without first reading about the in-game. Non-stealth solutions below:
Shrouded Forest just requires watching/walking behind the owls or exploring on your own once they are gone, and all stealth is removed once the dam breaks. If you simply play the game a bit you are bound to see the owls fade out with you in either the forest or cove area when you get flooded.

Twilight Cove's owls disappear at about 20 minutes into the loop when the tower is destroyed in the real world, just as the end of loop music starts to play, allowing you to visit the archive if you entered the world from the canyon (the only place not flooded at this point) without dealing with any guards (though you'll have to disable the alarm in advance). The window to actually view anything in the archives is extremely tight, but you can start from the last room just before the last three guards without encountering any guards if you fall into the courtyard from above, which should give you around 80-90 seconds in the archives. (Literally walk exactly straight from the opening in the tower, then when you reach the railing, break your fall on the rocks to the right.) I quickly found the slide reel with the glitched world symbol since I knew it was the most important after the other archives, and it trivialized getting back there without stealth and with tons of time to spare.

Endless Canyon can be done easily by lowering the lift before turning out the lights, then coming up the lift after taking the raft from elsewhere. This skips the entire hotel interior where you have to make the bridge inside and only leaves the very last guard who won't catch up to you if you just walk away from him.

[Mr. Nobody]

Originally posted by Songbird:

None of the areas require any real stealth at all, actually. I treated all owls guarding sections you have to pass through as impassible (because it felt way too hard to get past them) and found alternate routes for all, without using any knowledge from outside the game or finding any hidden techniques without first reading about the in-game. Non-stealth solutions below:

That's the whole point though. Instead of randomly dropping the owls IQ to single digits just so "stealth" solutions exist, they should have focused on those non-stealth solutions. Narratively, the stealth sections don't make any sense at all.

The Shrouded Woodlands is actually a perfect example of a solution that fits perfectly in the narrative. The owls DO guard the chokepoint entrance and the only reason you ever manage to enter is an exterior event the owls have no reason to expect will ever happen (the dam breaking). This type of solution should have been created for all three.

It makes no sense story-wise that the owls would go through all that effort to create the forbidden archives with multiple layers of security and 1 chokepoint entrance only for them to then just wander around aimlessly searching for you instead of actually guarding that 1 entrance. It's so dumb and immersion breaking that I actually expected a reveal at the end that their minds broke when they died in real life and they were now just mindless husks wandering around for eternity.