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[kandnm115709]

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[~°MØTG°~ GЯINDS€T [Fndr]]

I don't wanna spoil it but i felt exactly the way you felt at first with Shionne
her edginess and snobby attitude

but in the game her attitude changes and gets better.. just gotta play through the game and see for yourself

[Xengre]

It isn't that she simply ridicules Alphen so readily, but Alphen's character is genuinely weak early in the game. He tries to be resolved but he is actually very ignorant, uncertain, and weak willed at times. I don't recall this specific scene you are referring to atm so I can't answer the specifics, but much of her harping on Alphen is actually quite warranted even if it isn't fun to be put down. In addition, the scale of their task is not even remotely small. In fact, it could readily be called all but impossible. You HAVE to be resolved to even have a 1% chance at something like what they are attempting. Crumbling in the face of such a monumental task can actually result in it being impossible to stand back up after a major set back or uncertainty.

That said, she also does come off a bit rough at times and distant. This relates to her true goal, her past experiences, the scale of her task, and more. That isn't to say she is perfect, as she can push people away and come off a bit sharp at times, but in the game she is probably the only character that is nearly never prejudiced or wrong (at least about others, herself is another story).

Out of everyone in the story she is the one who is most supportive and picks Alphen up. Shionne is also quite supportive, if not a bit seemingly insensitive (at least at skin level, often if you consider her actions she is a lot more thoughtful than initially perceived), of every other character and Dahnans.

Alphen early on doesn't remember anything, has very little experience, is often confused and uncertain, and even Zephyr tried his best to guide and help Alphen learn to properly think and act on his own because of Alphen's own weaknesses. Honestly, in that situation if Alphen really wasn't up for it then he should absolutely give up and go home because he would be a hindrance to Shionne's own goals, he would likely end up costing both of them and others their lives due to his lack of resolve and weakness, and in truth if he wasn't resolved then Alphen would be pursuing a lie because it obviously wouldn't be a task that was truly important or worth fighting for to him and he would need to go back and find his own different path.

Think about this... who really is the immature one and in the wrong? Alphen is basically wanting to "play hero" and isn't taking any of this actually seriously despite what he wants to think. Shionne talks about how the Renans have ruled for three centuries, completely unimpeded, and demands that Alphen wake up and recognize to overcome such a monstrous rule that has enslaved an entire race/planet he can't be wishy washy and expect a perfect ending "without any sacrifices". Alphen's view and outburst is childish, unrealistic, and actually ridicules the resolve of those who have died fighintg and even Zephyr's, as well as Zephyr's own sacrifices... Even Zephyr's speech before his death, his wife, his son... Shionne: "Yeah, you're right. This IS a war." She goes on to narrate that Zephyr was by no means even close to the first to die, nor will he remotely be the last. Think about this, they barely knew him but did care but in the grand scheme of things... and what they are up against and fighting for, the sacrifices made. What about the other countless lives lost during a war or fight for freedom? What about them??? Yet, Alphen is only just now having to come to terms with this and if he can't handle it he really should not be involved. He would only lead to more loss.

Alphen is very naive early on and not facing reality. In fact, his facing himself is a huge theme in this story, alas I shall not spoil the specifics. He is a good guy, though. He just needed someone to get him to face the harsh reality, get a kick in the butt, and move forward. It doesn't mean Zephyr's death shouldn't be grieve, and Shionne never suggested such. This was just Alphen putting words in her mouth during his frustration, though it can also be understood due to his limited memories, or even though they were just brief friends, that Alphen is a caring person and just upset at the loss.

As for Shionne, she develops a ton in the story. This is, without spoiling some part of the obvious, a Tales of story with romance involved and this one has more straightforward successful romance than other open ended Tales of games. She also becomes close to the others as well. She is often the big sister of the group along with another lady, but different approaches. Don't underestimate her situation regarding her thorns btw. Think about just COVID where people have been heavily affected just by 1-2 years of social distancing, even at our ages. Now imagine someone in Shionne's situation who has, ever since birth, not been able to get near ANYONE or any living creature, not even pets/animals else they would get very hurt or even die. You also don't, yet, know of her other complicated past which definitely justifies her behavior at times. She was already forced to be physically distanced since birth, never knowing others warmth. Think about it. People would obviously avoid her due to this. She, herself, after just a few years would start to accept it as the norm and close herself off from others even further alianating herself. She would be very distant. In addition, her other circumstances no spoiler... Honestly, it is amazing she holds up as well as she does and is actually surprisingly caring and accepting. Of all the characters, while she might put up a front she is often the one to rush over to heal, put herself in harms way (you will see minor spoiler but not giving too much) for another, carry burdens that aren't just hers, be supportive and not prejudiced towards not just Renands but Dahnans as well, even if her advice might be rather frank at times.

It isn't that she is just portrayed as "strong", but she is resolved. She has her own weaknesses, too, in the story. Alphen grows a lot, too, not to the level of Luke's growth but he becomes reliable, determined, and able to establish his own ideals as well as walk his path. Of course, being strong or growing up doesn't mean he or others wont falter at times, either, but it is something that requires progress, mistakes, learning, effort to grow.

[Xengre]

No, Shionne never dismissed his vulnerability nor his weakness. What she did was make sure he realized and faced the harsh truth that this journey may have sacrifices. Alphen, and Alphen alone, put words in her mouth trying to claim she devalued his death as being meaningless and irrelevant but she did not and she went off on him about that. She then pointed out the situation which Alphen had ignored, because it was, in truth, actually Alphen making devaluing Zephyr's death and sacrifices. She only aimed to help him realize this and give him the resolve to carry this burden. She never put him down for it, though. She never said he was weak and should go back to Calagia because he was weak. She said if he couldn't accept this reality then he wasn't really fit for this journey and should go back, which is a very different truth. Alphen has quite a few moments of weakness in the story and, really, he never gets put down for it. It wasn't a slap to "man up" but a slap to "wake up" and "acknowledge the sacrifices Zephyr and others are making, and what they are aiming for" and if he couldn't do that then he shouldn't be there.

Btw, Shionne can't really hug Alphe. Yes, in theory Alphen is one of the only people she could "technically hug" at risk of harming him but 1) they aren't quite that close, yet 2) She has a natural disdain for getting close to others due to her upbringing (for instance from I believe it was Cyslonia and beyond if you rest and pick to talk to her when there isn't an actual dialogue event you will see her reach out to Alphen while he sleeps but hesitate and then Alphen wakes up and she withdraws) 3) He needed a wake up call. Even then he didn't get it and Alphen doesn't quite register some things and continues to have some issues until realm 5 where it all comes to surface. Alphen, himself, even after that incident didn't really reflect at the time or think he did wrong. He still did not quite realize, yet.

You are severely mixing up ridicule and someone speaking the truth, a truth that she didn't even insult him while presenting but just spoke frankly. A truth that had to be made clear or he could cause not just Zephyr, but others, to die and possibly result in the failure of the first real chance for freedom for the Dahnans in over 300 years. As for this being sexist, it is nothing of the sort. The same would have been warranted even if it was a female. In fact, Alphen does tell off Shionne a number of times in the story for her seemingly cold/distant behavior at times. Rinwell also gets her fair share because of her own fairly extreme prejudices until much later. They aren't the only ones, either. You want vulnerability? Wait until you see Alphen in realm 5 or one of the core male characters you are about to meet. Law also, despite not being the smartest individual and a training fantastic sometimes muscle for brains character, is often the most in tune non-masculine of the entire cast and constantly actively trying to grow, himself, and help others.

Just keep playing. If you don't quite understand things now and aren't quite getting my explanation then maybe it will become clearer to you as you go further. This situation actually reminds me a lot of Tidus in FFX who was often ridiculed for his laughing scene and behavior, despite people not realizing the traumas regarding his father, having his life turned upside down being ripped from the world he knew and thrown into Spira, and even the woman he loved and people he see dying or having ill-fate. Things aren't so simple and at least, in Arise it is intended to be uncomfortable as it faces rather challenging subjects and situations and everyone makes their share of mistakes / has their share of burdens.

[ArtyomMMM]

I wonder how you imagine the "correct" actions on her part at that moment. Could you describe these actions?

[Xengre]

Originally posted by kandnm115709:

I sincerely detest "boys don't cry", "boys shouldn't cry" and "man up" trope.

I do not like how Shionne slapped Aphen to tell him to "man up" and I especially do not like how Shionne guilt tripped him into "manning up" by goading him to go back home if he can't "man up".

Boys don't cry. Boys shouldn't cry. Man up. Get over it. It's not that big of a deal. Be a man.

That slap Shionne did triggered a lot of emotions out from me. That was not the kind of support any man would want for exposing his own vulnerability. Some men.... some of us can't be strong all the times but all of us liked to pretend that we are. And it's killing me on the inside.

She did not tell Alphen to not cry or to man up. I don't think you will enjoy this story because you aren't grasping a lot of the concepts in it and the reality of the story is rather darker than most JRPGs. I'm not sure you will handle the themes too well, tbh. You might want to check out Xenoblade Chronicles (original), Tales of the Abyss (assuming you can get past the early bad phase of the mc Luke... but you seem to not be able to do that here so idk...), Star Ocean 3, Xenogears (but the game might be way to deep for you, possibly), Final Fantasy VI as they have much more vulnerable male MCs that are willing to show a more concerned and emotional side throughout their given game. Sadly, most of these are not on Steam, but the truth is you don't really get this game and per your misunderstanding of the game you are suffering from a state not too far off from Alphen's own and were you able to carve your own route in the story everyone would probably, no certainly, die. I don't mean to hate on you but you are severely misunderstanding the scenes and not able to properly place yourself in their shoes. She did not do any of the stuff you claim and you clearly have a desired agenda/taste so the games I've mentioned are more suited to your endeavor.

[Good Night Owl]

I don't think these long ass counter arguments are helping. All Kandnm needs to know is Shionne's behavior improves, and you get her perspective better a bit later in the story.

[Haseo]

Originally posted by kandnm115709:

Originally posted by Shinji The Laundryman:

I don't wanna spoil it but i felt exactly the way you felt at first with Shionne
her edginess and snobby attitude

but in the game her attitude changes and gets better.. just gotta play through the game and see for yourself

That's good to hear but it's still annoys me that being tactless is used as a sign of tough love or brutal honesty. It's not, it just means that they don't care for other people's feelings. I really hate it whenever writers tries to pass this off as female empowerment.

Lmao, it's not even close to it being "female empowerment". Jesus...

[ArtyomMMM]

Originally posted by kandnm115709:

Originally posted by artyomr0bot:

I wonder how you imagine the "correct" actions on her part at that moment. Could you describe these actions?

Alphen was clearly distraught over the lost of his mentor, he was at his most vulnerable state and needed support before the weight of his guilt of failing to save Zephyr pins him to the ground. She doesn't even have to say anything, just listening is enough. Assure Alphen that it's okay to be sad over Zephyr's death. She can't do anything about his death but she could still comfort Alphen by being there to listen.

Another thing she could do is don't make suggestions about what Alphen should or shouldn’t do (accept the harsh reality of war or go home). She could've let Alphen know that she recognizes how great his loss is and doesn't belittle his feelings.

If I were in Alphen's shoes, I would really appreciate to hear her say, "I’m sorry about Zephyr's death. I know how important he is to you. How can I help?".

Shionne didn't help Alphen accept Zephyr's death, she dismisses it by slapping him on the face.

If she did that, she would definitely be the perfect person. But she was definitely not perfect, and at that time was not close enough to him to care about his feelings. Of course, she needed his help, so she tried to convey to him that his guilt came from the fact that he did not understand enough of what situation he was in. Of course, she did it awkwardly, because she's not a psychologist. She is not an ideal character, but what she is. You don't have to like her, and she doesn't have to always do what you expect her to.

[Xengre]

Alphen was on the verge of mental collapse... and at multiple points in the story questions if there is any point in fighting or if they were, literally, better off as just letting the Renans continue to rule over them while they remain as slaves because he fails to grasp there will still be deaths/loss under such an oppressive rule. He hasn't quite seen all of the other realms, yet, to understand just how bad it gets in some areas in particular or when certain lords (as they swap over different crown contests) can get. Literally, if Shionne did not make him wake up Alphen might have failed his journey here, stuck on the loss, not able to come to terms with Zephyr's death and he might have gotten everyone else killed eventually and not properly understood the gravity of things.

As for comforting, she isn't able to just go up and hug him. That isn't a thing with her thorns or someone who has grown up since her literal birth socially isolated due to it and this has impacted her way of interacting with others, too. Her actions actually give value to Zephyr's death and the sacrifices of others (not just Zephyr died there remember, so did many resistance fighters during the raid and stuff, not to mention the past). She also gave him the strength to come to terms with it, albeit, over time.

As for accepting harsh reality and go home... I mean, I can repeat this a hundred times but this isn't a Shionne issue. This is a Alphen and you issue because, like Alphen, you aren't quite grasping the gravity of the situation in the story. They have very limited time before potential Renan interference, or for the other lords to get additional info about the situation shore up vulnerabilities against Alphen and party, or a chance to take heavier handed actions (which occurs big time resulting in mass death three times), not to mention the mental block this type of loss can place on a person. Once your feet stop moving, so to say, it can be nearly impossible for many to stand back up.

As for your expectations of what she should say... You clearly do not understand the environment of this game, what people have been through, or her and other's personalities. How about why are you just harping on Shionne and no one else for their lack of affection during this incident? Shionne, btw, quite unlike Alphen IS aware of the gravity of the situation and IS resolved in the face of these adversities. Just because she is more accepting and able to move forward and Alphen wallows, literally discarding everything Zephyr tried to do and stood for in his pity, does not mean what you think it does. She certainly didn't be dismissive of his death, she was realistic and placed value on it, unlike Alphen. She never said to not grieve or any of the nonsense you are claiming, but Alphen cannot have a mental break down over it, either. Do you think real world military life is so brotherly and affectionate, too? Alphen is very weak willed at times and nearly loses himself and gives up, repeatedly, even willingly accepting much of the common slave thought process that they shouldn't rebel against the Renans and that the sacrifices aren't worth it... That "perhaps it is better to let the Renans continue their rule rather than oppose it." This is clearly you want some fantasy unrealistic scenario and don't even understand basic premises. I'm sorry, but you probably cannot understand this game and should put it down.

I get you have an agenda here but it is fruitless. This is entirely a you issue and I'm not so kind as to continue helping you overcome your own misunderstandings so I'm bowing out of this thread here. Good luck.

[aelita]

No, but in fact Shionne was just right in my point of view. Alphen was sad, Shionne is not the best comfort but already it would be necessary to begin to understand the characters. Shionne is a person who from the start seems quite associal and we are made to understand that she has very LITTLE interaction with people. She is also distant and cold and yet she has tried, telling him to look at what he has accomplished rather than lost. Then Alphen is agressive against her, without any real justification he allows himself to say that the death of Zephyr does not affect her when she may just be not good at showing it and it is clearly inappropriate and unfair when she was trying. Then he goes into a delirium, "I want to avoid sacrifices that's why I'm at war" but, sorry that's not necessarily possible for not say impossible and the reality is just not so easy. He is a war leader now, war is no fun and can be fatal and He can kill is all his team if he cannot understand what is in game. Shionne did very well to remind him that we have nothing for nothing, then just for having spent his nerves on her for no reason when she was making an effort he deserved a stop.

Besides, it's not the only time that Alphen is unfair to her, like when he accuses her of not wanting to touch a slave when if she had, the kid would have ended up being electrocuted. Alphen is far from being always nice and his speech on avoiding death in a war showed that he did not necessarily grasp all the issues, just as Shionne is not perfect, she is cold and associal, does not know how to communicate so we can't expect her to be any kind support which is not necessarily effective help either. From my point of view Alphen mostly needed to regroup, he had to understand the issues and the reality to face them but she never told him that he should not express his emotions, and she's not close to him either and if he can't support his situation, she's right that he has nothing to do in battlefield.

[ArtyomMMM]

Originally posted by aelita:

No, but in fact Shionne was just right in my point of view. Alphen was sad, Shionne is not the best comfort but already it would be necessary to begin to understand the characters. Shionne is a person who from the start seems quite associal and we are made to understand that she has very LITTLE interaction with people. She is also distant and cold and yet she has tried, telling him to look at what he has accomplished rather than lost. Then Alphen is agressive against her, without any real justification he allows himself to say that the death of Zephyr does not affect her when she may just be not good at showing it and it is clearly inappropriate and unfair when she was trying. Then he goes into a delirium, "I want to avoid sacrifices that's why I'm at war" but, sorry that's not necessarily possible for not say impossible and the reality is just not so easy. He is a war leader now, war is no fun and can be fatal and He can kill is all his team if he cannot understand what is in game. Shionne did very well to remind him that we have nothing for nothing, then just for having spent his nerves on her for no reason when she was making an effort he deserved a stop.

Besides, it's not the only time that Alphen is unfair to her, like when he accuses her of not wanting to touch a slave when if she had, the kid would have ended up being electrocuted. Alphen is far from being always nice and his speech on avoiding death in a war showed that he did not necessarily grasp all the issues, just as Shionne is not perfect, she is cold and associal, does not know how to communicate so we can't expect her to be any kind support which is not necessarily effective help either. From my point of view Alphen mostly needed to regroup, he had to understand the issues and the reality to face them but she never told him that he should not express his emotions, and she's not close to him either and if he can't support his situation, she's right that he has nothing to do in battlefield.

At least after the argument, Alphen admitted that despite his inability to understand Shion, the argument would not lead to anything good, and did not act like a moody child. It usually happens differently, and I was pleasantly surprised that he had a bit of common sense despite all the emotional turmoil he went through.