New Player Impression: Too Deadly to Have Time to be Scary

['Rax]

Hey Devs, if you read this,

I'd heard great things about this game when it first became available and friends were playing it. After a long break, a few of them brought me in to experience it together with them. And I can see how this game could be absolutely terrifying, but some design decisions (and changes made since release) have ruined that.

So far I've gone on ten hunts. I survived one of the first eight. I didn't even know what a ghost looked like until I'd been killed three times. I hadn't heard one (or at least known that I had) until three or four (failed) missions. I think my team together managed to guess the right ghost once. We had usually taken casualties before we had more than one piece of evidence.

The point of a horror/suspense game is to build up tension, build up the sense of dread, of threat of danger/death, but that effect is lost once you've got the actuality of said death. Whispering in your ear is scary. Opening and closing doors is creepy. Throwing objects at you is a good jump-scare. A flickering visage in a dark hallway is terrifying.

Dying isn't.

Once you're dead, there's nothing to be scared of.

Obviously we were doing stupid things, saying the ghost's name over and over (at least at first), not understanding how evidence works, rookie-level play. But, the ghosts' aggression level, even on the lowest difficulty, basically demands that players be experienced hunters to have any chance of survival, let alone success. If you're a novice who's still learning the first house and doesn't know how to hide in a closet yet, you're not going to have a good time. You're also not going to have a scary time - because you'll maybe see a little interaction, then the lights will flicker (if you've learned how to turn them on at all) and then you lose. A game like this should take steps to cater to players who come in blind - "no spoilers" is a thing for a reason - to some extent as well as keeping it challenging for the pros.

I definitely appreciate the desire to keep things interesting and challenging for experienced players, but just as a reminder, they're not the ones you need to convince to buy the game - they've already bought it. Please make the easier difficulties less dangerous and give newbies a chance to be scared before just murdering us all!

[Bragh]

I agree with the thoughts presented in the OP. It's not good design to completely forgo the new player experience in favor of forced difficulty only designed to take your money away; and that's exactly what the dev(s) have been doing for years. I absolutely agree death isn't scary. The threat of death being around the corner used to be once upon a time, but since the ghosts just appear and murder you willy-nilly as soon as they're able almost every time (except when you expect them to, in the case of the Demon for example) and a lot of the time you can't even see them before they've spawned inside you or just haven't even appeared yet before you're dead. The devs have even gone so far as to make ghost events and hunts nearly indistinguishable from each other, which is a design choice only made in sadism; so they can say "Ha! Gotcha!" and take your resources away. Many of these design choices take away from the fun and thrill the game once had in favor of forced "difficulty."
I also agree that there should be AI tweaks in Amateur difficulty and maybe to a lesser extent in Intermediate to accomodate new players at least a little bit. Experienced players aren't going to play on Amateur or Intermediate a lot of the time anyway so it won't hurt anyone to throw new players a bone there. The tutorial is god-awful and should just be replaced with a custom difficulty setting with "friendly ghost" turned on instead. It'd serve the purpose better and let players learn.
The argument "git gud" is just condescending and pointless. That's the whole point being made here: These people are trying to do just that. Ridiculing new players for being new helps nobody.
The custom difficulty suggestion isn't necessarily a bad one, but in order to learn how hunting works better you have to be able to experience them; and custom difficulty is designed to either take your rewards away entirely or give you far less than you would have earned with the same or lesser levels of actual difficulty by using the forced default difficulties. This also takes away from the progression new players NEED to even gain access to all the tools they should be given from the beginning to succeed. And again, the AI doesn't care whether you're new. It'll just happily murder you and prevent you from ever being able to progress or achieve the experience established players have already known for years.
Maybe there will be a better new player experience with the new progression overhaul; but we'd know more if the devs bothered telling us anything. We can only hope.

[Shocknfunk]

Цитата допису Corseth:

I've been a long time player, and I think there are a lot of things commentators are not considering. I think a lot of you are looking at things with the light of all the experience you've accumulated, and growing up with the game through its changes rather than having the current version be your first experience.

I was observing Mandarax's game so I know what was going on, and if this is the new player experience, there's going to be problems. He had a crew of entirely new people. They played the first round at Intermediate, got wrecked hard, and dropped it to Amateur - and got wrecked hard, for nine more rounds. I was watching rather bewildered because I wasn't any better when I first started, I had no idea what house layouts were and got lost all the time, I sometimes got myself cornered trying to flee a ghost, I didn't know when to hide or when to run. And often I died, but nothing like what I was seeing.

My 'advice level' that I wanted to give them, for scene-setting, was intended to be how to play the game, not play it for them. "See that white dot on the camera, that's what a spirit orb looks like. Now you can mark it off in your journal" : yes. Tell them exactly where to go, when : no. Very few people want a backseat driver, after all, or to have someone take up "the controller and play for them".

Here was the culprit I nailed down: The ghosts are much faster now, and hunt much more efficiently than they used to, so every hunt resulted in a death. They just could not escape or hide fast enough, and of course they're not going to have figured out looping and such yet. Yes, it was for amateur reasons, not noticing which direction the ghost was coming from, or getting lost in the house, or hung up on a table or corner, or picking a less than great spot to hide. But I remember making those mistakes too when I first started (and I had NO guidance from ANYONE so it was all bumbling around learning-by-trial-and-error) and they only sometimes got me killed - here, they were ALWAYS getting a player killed, per hunt. And hunts were very predictable - they were happening as frequently as the grace periods allowed (especially given the lack of sanity pills at their player levels and funds, but in very few cases was everyone running around sub-20, usually more 50-70 range).

The ghosts have been tuned to be dangerous to much more experienced playstyles; lowering the difficult to Amateur isn't changing these tunings, so the ghosts are still going hard on players who lack both the literal (since they don't have the levels or cash to buy items) and figurative (since they lack the experience) tools to escape death.

This is very unlike the new player experience I had back in the day. Player deaths happened a lot, sure, but a lot of hunts, people also survived. The roster of ghosts was smaller and lacked many of the more aggressive or dangerous ghosts. Mistakes that, when I first started, were recoverable, were no longer recoverable. Now, I don't know why the ghosts were also so much more rarin' to hunt too, but that's also not how I remember it. I DO remember some chain hunts back when I was new (as much as grace periods allowed chains), but they were the exception, and memorable for it. Here? All ten games were hunting on the dot when grace ended, and there was a lot less 'filler material' happening between hunts. Made it come across much less dreadful/suspenseful/creepy and a lot more 'Dead by Daylight' action/escape oriented.

If you've been in this game since early days, then don't forget, you learned the ropes with flat out easier ghosts. I think it's a tremendously good thing that there are more types of ghosts and much smarter ghost AI now - but I am NOT convinced it's a good idea for the whole shebang to be dumped on new players in Amateur difficulty. And no, I don't think Phasmophobia should be trying to be Dark Souls (that style of repeated failure to get to success), especially on lower difficulties. It's just not really set up well for it, especially given how much down time death causes for the first person to go down on a crew. The threat of death and potential for failure DEFINITELY needs to be there, but I don't think a team of newbies should have to roll into Amateur of all places with a video guides demystifying every aspect the game and a sherpa to buy them better gear, to have a good time. I do think dumber, slower ghosts are more appropriate for Amateur, than more grace time honestly (grace time with no threat isn't nearly as useful for improving, as actually being under a lesser threat).

On point. I use to run laps around ghosts eventually back in the early days. Even went as far as making our own challenges during investigations with going in with no flashlights/pills, try to get other player killed first, be last to survive with no lights, etc. also had tons of cash to burn. Took a break from it to comeback around the time they implemented the difficulty updates to ghosts along with some new ones and we could barely make out a single piece of evidence before everyone wiping almost immediately. Lost all of my equipment and 30k of cash trying to relearn prof and it was just too rough. To this day I occasionally log in every now and then just to do maybe a handful of amateur in VR but idk the game has changed so much in the skill ceiling it’s ridiculous. Glad to see it’s still chugging along though.

[Sawboss]

I've purposefully avoided learning how the mechanics of the game work because if I understand how the ghost behaviour works it will no longer be scary, nothing is more frightening than the fear of the unknown, but it feels like the increased difficulty now means you really have to learn how the game functions to survive which I can't be bothered to do as without the fear the game seems pointless. The risk of dying is scary, actually dying isn't.

['Rax]

It's unfortunate. The complaint here was that the game ruins its ability to be scary by jumping right to "kill the player" and thereby leaving itself nothing else to threaten with. The response of "git gud" is not only useless advice, but the very act of "gitting gud" involves making the game even less scary than before by forcing players to learn the mechanics and remove the uncertainties in order to succeed or progress. The more helpful suggestions on videos to watch and techniques to try is less snarky, but still serves to demystify - and thereby reduce the fear of the unknown - but it's necessary because "the unknown" in the game's current state gets you killed, often without giving a clue as to why or what you did "wrong".

If the devs intend this game to be challenging, then they're on the right track (even on "easy mode"). And that's fine, plenty of games get by on the fact that they're hard. But, if they want it to be scary in the traditional sense, as I have to assume they do, then they should give their design document some further thought. I see no reason they can't have modes that cater to both goals, but they aren't doing so yet.

[nemarosa]

For those hunting ghosts, it sounds like your group got unlucky with the ghost type. Some of them will hunt as soon as they can if there's no crucifix holding them back. Demons are the worst for hunting early(group sanity can be 80% and there the demon goes). Deogen also go right for you, no matter where you hide.

I suggest spending some more time in the tutorial to get the hang of each starter item, and use custom difficulties to make it easier to play and get the hang of things. Read the descriptions of the ghosts and work on learning their patterns and behavior.

In some places if it's extra dark and you have no flashlight or candle, crank the brightness up in settings. It won't help your sanity at all, but seeing helps a lot.

Do the daily and weekly challenges for the practice and money. Even the most experienced player still dies, so don't stress on that if you can help it.

A few small tips:

-If it's hunting, no one talk at all. It will lead the ghost to you or your teammate.
-Group sanity is what counts for hunting. 80% and a hunt? It's a demon.
-The cursed possessions will drop your sanity to 0% if you use it all the way.
-Get that breaker on first, and be careful to not have all the lights on you can trip it.
-Stepped in salt photos are your friend for some extra easy money.
-Put a crucifix down in the ghost room as soon as you find it.

Time will be one of your best teachers. You and your group will be getting good before you know it! Everyone was new once. ♡(◕ᗜ◕✿)

[Watcher Rat]

Цитата допису Sawboss:

I've purposefully avoided learning how the mechanics of the game work because if I understand how the ghost behaviour works it will no longer be scary, nothing is more frightening than the fear of the unknown, but it feels like the increased difficulty now means you really have to learn how the game functions to survive which I can't be bothered to do as without the fear the game seems pointless. The risk of dying is scary, actually dying isn't.

I mean...it's hard to really know what to say to that, since it does kind of translate to "I die too much because I refuse to learn the game." I don't mean that to sound negatively, it's just...well, what else would you expect would happen? Consider it in terms of other "horror" games...if you load them up and specifically don't learn the ins and outs, you're going to fail far more often than you will succeed.

Цитата допису Shocknfunk:

On point. I use to run laps around ghosts eventually back in the early days. Even went as far as making our own challenges during investigations with going in with no flashlights/pills, try to get other player killed first, be last to survive with no lights, etc. also had tons of cash to burn. Took a break from it to comeback around the time they implemented the difficulty updates to ghosts along with some new ones and we could barely make out a single piece of evidence before everyone wiping almost immediately. Lost all of my equipment and 30k of cash trying to relearn prof and it was just too rough. To this day I occasionally log in every now and then just to do maybe a handful of amateur in VR but idk the game has changed so much in the skill ceiling it’s ridiculous. Glad to see it’s still chugging along though.

If you do really want to try the game again and get back into the harder difficulties, I would recommend watching the videos on Dooley Noted Gaming's channel (not mine) starting with this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iazfovXYHfc

He went from having not played the game in a long time to basically mastering it and gaining almost 5000 levels in the last few months, and his early videos are both fun and informative. Just watching a few of them can give you all the tools you need to survive, which I know since I used the same videos to come back and learn everything he did.

[Shocknfunk]

Цитата допису Watcher Rat:

Цитата допису Sawboss:

I've purposefully avoided learning how the mechanics of the game work because if I understand how the ghost behaviour works it will no longer be scary, nothing is more frightening than the fear of the unknown, but it feels like the increased difficulty now means you really have to learn how the game functions to survive which I can't be bothered to do as without the fear the game seems pointless. The risk of dying is scary, actually dying isn't.

I mean...it's hard to really know what to say to that, since it does kind of translate to "I die too much because I refuse to learn the game." I don't mean that to sound negatively, it's just...well, what else would you expect would happen? Consider it in terms of other "horror" games...if you load them up and specifically don't learn the ins and outs, you're going to fail far more often than you will succeed.

Цитата допису Shocknfunk:

On point. I use to run laps around ghosts eventually back in the early days. Even went as far as making our own challenges during investigations with going in with no flashlights/pills, try to get other player killed first, be last to survive with no lights, etc. also had tons of cash to burn. Took a break from it to comeback around the time they implemented the difficulty updates to ghosts along with some new ones and we could barely make out a single piece of evidence before everyone wiping almost immediately. Lost all of my equipment and 30k of cash trying to relearn prof and it was just too rough. To this day I occasionally log in every now and then just to do maybe a handful of amateur in VR but idk the game has changed so much in the skill ceiling it’s ridiculous. Glad to see it’s still chugging along though.

If you do really want to try the game again and get back into the harder difficulties, I would recommend watching the videos on Dooley Noted Gaming's channel (not mine) starting with this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iazfovXYHfc

He went from having not played the game in a long time to basically mastering it and gaining almost 5000 levels in the last few months, and his early videos are both fun and informative. Just watching a few of them can give you all the tools you need to survive, which I know since I used the same videos to come back and learn everything he did.

Appreciate it but I mainly played this game with a tight group back then. Been recently trying to get back in the rhythm of it slowly just with fiancé and stick to the smaller maps for small play segments. No doubt the game has my respect and it’s awesome to still see it have a healthy playerbase that some AAA games wished they could achieve(Halo Infinite) but I don’t see myself diving hard into again unless this latest update revamps the difficulty spikes.

[Hex: Your Wife]

I'm gonna toss this in as someone who has put in the time, and put in the effort. (I'm level 500+ (Close to reaching 600 I believe! <3), 284 hours in the game, Roughly about 17,000-20,000$ and 500 something need to check again) I'm not new to it, I know how it goes, I've been here for every update, I don't play as often anymore because it's usually pretty unenjoyable to play alone in this one on my end.

(TO SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT WANT TO LISTEN TO MECHANICS, OR HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT GHOSTS / SPOILERS, PLEASE DON'T READ BELOW.)

Now I'm going to get in my personal opinion as this, you can disagree, you can agree, whatever. This is just how I see the game after putting in what I perceive is the 'time and effort' into the game.

Getting new players into this game who have never played Phas, is really difficult to do. Because you have to teach them every aspect of the game that to some of us came really naturally, ontop of that with the difficulty increase on levels that felt already fair and balanced before, it is really hard to keep them wanting to play because it feels like death simulator. A friend of mine who freshly started the game and I was running him through everything today, didn't even realize the ghost had started a hunt on Amateur, and died to it. It is *really* rough. Yes I get there is custom, but you don't get the pay out of custom as well.

And on that note, on a level that brands itself as being best for New Hunters, it really isn't all that welcome or forthcoming. And yes he is trying to learn, he has made some improvement, but improvement doesn't come overnight, and it seems like the game has become increasingly difficult for little to no reason. For example, it's like Amateur became the new Intermediate (Compared to how it used to be), Intermediate is the new Professional, Professional is the new Nightmare, Nightmare is Insanity, and Insanity is hell in a handbasket.

I *can* survive all of these, I have done all of these levels (Only dabbled lightly into Insanity, wasn't my cup of tea) , but the repeated hunts til' the point you can't get to the ghost room and get evidence because you are 24/7 being hunted. (And have ran out of anything to fight back against it.) feels terrible.

Overall the gameplay has degraded over time and I find myself wishing to go back to when it felt more fun and less of dying simulator almost? I miss when you had more ghost events instead of less, when you had more time before the first Hunt, when Hunts weren't 24/7.

Hunts aren't even really that difficult is the thing either, and I'm not saying this because I don't enjoy hunts, but having them all the time isn't really gameplay or enjoyable because you are in a state where you are forced to hide or get as far from the ghost as possible and hope you are lucky with the waypoint it set.

And this is outside of Ghosts that have a higher % to hunt as well. ^^

It really isn't that the game got more difficult I guess, it got more repetitive in behaviors, and has kinda become a wall, it's a race to get Evidence, and with how buggy some Evidence's can be, and how hesitant to some ghosts can be to release Evidence, you might as well be playing the same difficulty as any other, just some give you a couple more minutes of grace compared to others.

I personally want more ghost models, more visuals, more que's, more responses. Not to go in, have it write in a book, spooky knock on a window, and get a ghost orb flying across my screen. It feels less interactive and actually terrifying like the initial person is trying to describe.

To those who are saying 'git gud' this isn't about skill or just dying itself I feel, or what have you, it's about wanting more game interaction from the Ghost then just what we have. Like for example -- and sorry to use this as an example in Demonologist the ghost actually hears you and based on what you say, interacts with you. Jumpscares, visual, hearing ques, -- all that is my bread and butter. Ghost events are cool, but they need to be more then they are right now.

[Sawboss]

Цитата допису Watcher Rat:

I mean...it's hard to really know what to say to that, since it does kind of translate to "I die too much because I refuse to learn the game." I don't mean that to sound negatively, it's just...well, what else would you expect would happen? Consider it in terms of other "horror" games...if you load them up and specifically don't learn the ins and outs, you're going to fail far more often than you will succeed.

I refuse to learn how the game works because it actively makes the game less interesting. I haven't actually played it for a long time because I played with randoms in multiplayer and it destroyed the mystery as I learned how hunts work, etc. I still follow the updates out of interest but the game itself lost it's appeal.

[Zothen]

Цитата допису Mandarax:

So far I've gone on ten hunts. I survived one of the first eight. I didn't even know what a ghost looked like until I'd been killed three times. I hadn't heard one (or at least known that I had) until three or four (failed) missions. I think my team together managed to guess the right ghost once. We had usually taken casualties before we had more than one piece of evidence.

Well, skill issue much?

[Fluffy671]

must be a skill diff...

['Rax]

Цитата допису Zothen:

Well, skill issue much?

My argument is not that the game is too hard. Hard games are fine. My argument is that the game is not scary because it's too busy being hard. But apparently you didn't even have time to read the thread title, let alone the posts.

[Watcher Rat]

Цитата допису Mandarax:

Цитата допису Zothen:

Well, skill issue much?

My argument is not that the game is too hard. Hard games are fine. My argument is that the game is not scary because it's too busy being hard. But apparently you didn't even have time to read the thread title, let alone the posts.

I would say to consider the game less as a horror game, and more as a puzzle game. It really doesn't have much in the scares department after a short time.

[Dr Cracky | OniFans]

Цитата допису DeadlyCreature:

Try playing on custom difficulty. You can learn the game safely while also tuning game settings to your favor and even outright disable losing equipment on death if you wish. This is why it was added to the game.

True