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By your logic, why do you need Karol or Estelle, or Raven or Patty, you have 15 apples and 15 limons. 99 if you cleared the game already.
How about having a healer that heals AND revive? Sounds nice, right? How about YOU learn to heal on time.
Well, you are now saying Karol is a usless tank which im saying all this time. If your tank dies in though fights is useless. Again, Yuri/Repede/Judith are better fighters, Yuri and Flynn can heal too and they are faster, so why anybody should pick Karol?
Oh gosh, somebody die in that video!!!, so of course the characters die anytime you use Estelle!!! Wrong pal, your characters can die with Karol too, that video prove nothing. And again, if you are healing out of time then it´s your problem.
Nope. It´s the whole core point about your argument.
Sure pal, she is alone, surrounded by enemies, still need her casting time, she has to fight 4 tough bosses and yet you say she can´t do a thing when you play outside the colliseum. That´s funny.
Yet Karol barely can finish the Colisseum.....against a lot of weaker enemies......
I don't understand how you can say slow running is not a problem but "slow" casting is.
You explained that already, you just put a mystic simbol, put on some skills and thats it, you have a better healer than Karol. Wait, you REALLY dont know how to use Estelle? I was just having fun here.
There, here are all Estelle´s skills:
https://aselia.fandom.com/wiki/ToV_-_Estelle:_Skills
Medical Boost, Heal supply, Healing Artes, Auto Medicine, Resurrect, Angel's Tear are a must and they are lifesavers. Presto, you have now a healer waaaaaaaayyyyy better than anything Karol does.
Except Rita have to cast spells, can be interrupted and need to recast and the boss can attack her and kill her. All the things you keep whinning about Estelle. Well, thats hypocrisy.
You need 2 or 3 Karol healing artes to heal one or two fighters with the same HP than Estelle does with all the party, that and all the time you waste running to the target.....in an ideal world, because the fighters move constantly and you need follow the characters constantly.
Nope, still your problems. If you don´t know how to heal on time, you waste your healing artes healing a KO fighter, and you don´t know how to revive, you are playing wrong.
Except you yourself are saying you don´t know how to heal, you said Estelle sucks because heals a KO fighter (?), and you said you don´t know what to do when she is attacked. All thats things are your problems therefore you don´t know how to play. It´s not an insult, it´s the true.
So, now if i say you are a bad player is an insult? Whatever pal if you just want to hear you are playing right because you are very offended i can say it, it´s not true, no after all the things i´ve read already, but i can do it..
Anyway, first you tell me why are you healing ko characters and then i will tell you why you should´nt do that. You just heal your characters WHEN they need it. It is not so difficult.
Except, she can heal just fine and revive your party which Karol can´t.
Now you are delirious and you don´t know how to debate.
Imagine if they'd given Karol a normal speed, distant attacks and good healing artes...
It works alright on Abyss with Natalia, since if she gets the FOF change on them, they last for the entire battle, even if the target gets KO'd.
I'm not sure what the cast time is, to be competely honest. Slower than First Aid for sure, but it's still pretty quick. He gets the heals out pretty fast.
And Estelle doesn't learn it. Cure is an Altered Arte that only Flynn gets.
IMO, First Aid is still better than Pixie Circle lol. I know that spell isn't in this game, but holy sh*t thats a bad spell. Costs more than First aid. Longer cast time. Heals like half as much. And has the smallest AoE ever.
Ah, did Definitive add some skills that reduce her casting time? As I said before, she certainly didn't get Light Magic or Rhythm on 360.
Heavy boss starts a combo that will narrowly KO Yuri. Estelle starts healing immediately. The combo finishes and Yuri is KO'd before the heal procs. There is no "learning" that improves this deficiency of hers. It is really this simple.
I really don't know what you get by pretending Estelle's casting speed is not slow or insisting there's some mystical kind of expert player knowledge that can improve it. There isn't! Repeating "learn how to use her" over and over and over and over isn't fooling anyone.
It seems you just can't get past this mentality that "Estelle healer Karol tank". You even misinterpret half of what I'm saying because you have to perform some impressive mental gymnastics to recategorise what I've said to something else entirely. I can't help you there.
Karol is not a tank, nor have I said he is. In fact I most recently said that tanking in Vesperia isn't really a thing at all.
What I have said is that Karol can heal when you need it, rather than 6 seconds after you need it. Separately, if a boss that is a threat turns its attention to my healer, I would much rather it be Karol than Estelle for reasons that really should be very obvious.
Is hyperbole your first response to everything now? The point of linking that video was to show the problem where your heals process ~9 seconds after you start needing them.
You don't get to change what my point is, and honestly that's pretty disrespectful.
Let's use some of your hyperbole. You say Estelle can heal, so I say you're wrong because the sky is really blue. What, you didn't say the sky wasn't blue? But that's the core point about your argument!!
What the heck are you on about? I've been very open about Karol's movement speed, and have discussed that since page 2. I've presented the situations where it can be a problem, and readily pointed out that, at the worst, it's basically as bad as Estelle's casting time. Fortunately in most of the tough situations, Karol is next to the danger zone and doesn't have to run the marathons you seem to insist he does.
Claiming that Karol doesn't move slowly is as daft as claiming Estelle's heals don't cast slowly. Only one of us is doing either.
For like the fifth time, unless Definitive changes things, Estelle has no skills that improve her casting time. Honestly it wouldn't surprise me at all if it does - not least of all giving her Cure - because Estelle being the worst primary healer of the Tales series isn't[gamefaqs.gamespot.com] a new[gamefaqs.gamespot.com] concept at all[gamefaqs.gamespot.com].
None of which reduce the excessive casting time. So did Definitive really not help her? Goodness me.
Okay... so you're basically just going to ignore everything I said. Gotcha.
One Nice Healing Smash is stronger than Nurse, just over half the TP cost, and much faster.
Two Nice Healing Smash are stronger than a Healing Circle and only a shade weaker than one Revitalize. Combined they are more expensive than the former, but much cheaper than the latter, and of course much faster than both.
And yes I'm factoring in Medical Boost. Karol gets Medical Smash which is much the same.
I'm going to start counting this as avoiding the question soon. All you've said is "use accessories and skills" (which by your own admission don't help casting speed).
If you can't even understand your own misinterpretation, I seriously can't help you...
----
Pfahaha, really? Does she get anything else?
It would actually be pretty astonishing if they gave other characters the middle-ground healing Estelle desperately needed without giving it to Estelle herself!
Nurse
Healing Circle
Revitalize
Regenerate (is a revive spell, but it heals 35% in a small AoE, so I added it)
Nightingale
How in the world your Yuri die in 9 seconds starting the fight and you can not even stand enough for being cured? Or you are an extremely bad player or thats just a BIG FAT LIE and you are not fooling anyone here.
Of course, he can die if you are below the level you need (example Yuri Level 20 - Giganto Monster Level 50) but that means you should not fight that battle yet.. If your character dies starting the fight ALL the party probably will die even if you use Estelle, Karol, Patty or whaever.
You don´t need to be an expert to heal a character BEFORE he dies, you just need to do it before the boss attack your fighter which is pretty easy because almost all the bosses have behavior patterns. All this time all i hear is your whinning about how Estelle can´t heal because your character dies before she can do it, which is the lamest excuse ever because i use her ALL the time and i KNOW she can do it just right. And that is why i still believe you are playing wrong or just plain overeacting.
You said this before: "Anything that does enough damage to KO Karol, does enough damage to KO anyone."
Yes, you said he is the tank and thats why you choose him over Estelle. If you can´t follow the conversation, then stop quote me.
Yes, you can heal your party if they are not moving enough and the enemy is not flying, teleporting or spamming range attacks, then yes, you should pick Karol.
Again, that proves nothing, only that the fighter dies first IN THAT FIGHT and thats it. I have seen fights when Yuri dies and Karol is still running behind trying to heal him.
Im not changing anything, in fact you are changing your arguments now.
Read a dictionary because that´s not what a hiperbole means. Anyway, that´s funny coming from the guy who said Estelle is a bad healer because Rain is better.
No, Karol movement is worse, thats why he barely can finish the colisseum meanwhile Estelle can do it faster. Oh no, i forgot your Estelle dies all the time because you don´t know how to use her so of course Estelle sucks.
What excesive casting time? You need only a few seconds and you heal ALL the party. ALL of them. On the other hand you NEED to run with Karol toward Yuri to heal him, then run toward Judith to heal her then run toward Rita to heal her, in an ideal world where nobody is running behind the enemy and dying first and Karol himself is not taking damage.
So, you are going to ignore the fact you are complaining about Estelle casting time, being interrupted and needing recast but you are not complaining about Rita needing the exact same things? Gotcha.
Like i said, that´s hypocrisy.
That´s cute, you compare One Nice Healing Arte against Nurse but not against Nighingale. And you don´t mention Karol needs to stay close to the target and you never mention Karol heals one or two targets meanwhile Estelle heals all the party anywhere. Also, you don´t mention Estelle can cast healing artes without waste TP if you have the right skill.
You said Estelle dies just because she is attacked by a boss (which is a lie) and you said she need a lot of time to cast (even joking about needing a day to do it) and the you even said Estelle almost always heals ko fighters because she can´t do it right. If you are no trying to say she sucks i don´t know what are you even trying to say......and at this point i don´t even care.
You know what? I´m tired, so whaever, you keep saying all you want and keep playing wrong all i care. Again, i´ve finished the game 4 times always with Estelle, so i know how useful she is and i don´t care if you keep overeacting about her healings artes.
Oh you mean the thing I discussed before you began this whole "doesn't know how to heal" nonsense, and later told you I had already considered.
Here I thought when you kept talking about those mysterious advanced healing skills of yours after that point that there was more to it. Mine expectations, they are dashed.
Who said anything about the start of a battle? You're inserting a condition that I never mentioned.
If a boss has a combo that kills in under 5 seconds (which is both realistic and a long time in this situation, I shouldn't have to elaborate) then the only way for an Estelle AOE heal to land in time is to have magically seen the future and started casting it before the boss' AI decided to perform that particular set of attacks.
I guess if you're dramatically overlevelled, playing on Easy and/or using an accessory to reduce TP cost (which deprives Estelle of the only healing spell speed increase she gets by the way), you can just cast Revitalize constantly and spam Orange and Pineapple gels for as long as the fight lasts.
Though, even then, with 9 seconds between heals the boss could still time it right between those and you're still looking at KO'd party mem- oh right, the overlevelling thing...
Yeah. You just need to know that when Estelle's choices are a fast 25% to one character or a slow 60%+ to multiple characters, so she has no good options when a boss catches someone in a kill combo, and it may be better to use another healer who is actually capable of emergency healing.
And how on earth do you keep making that leap of logic? Karol has resilience which I said to be a good quality in a healer. As I made clear before, that doesn't mean he should be used as a tank. I can't help you if you just won't listen to me correcting you.
I have no idea what a flying enemy has to do with Karol's healing capabilities.
For the record I don't use Karol primarily as a fighter. I have him set to Heal and Use 25% TP, as his AI is good enough to prioritise the former. He is on point with both healing and Nice Recovery Smash, and when he doesn't need to use either he fights as normal, dealing considerable damage with regular attacks and sometimes one of the few attack skills I don't have disabled (Dragon Upper certainly doesn't have trouble hitting flying enemies either) which means he remains an asset when everyone is healthy unlike Estelle whose regular attacks are just as slow but also weaker (and who shouldn't be running up to enemies in the first place).
Oh I get it. You're specifically excluding all the situations where Estelle isn't good enough. Well, yes, when you do that, Estelle is by definition good enough in all the rest.
I presume you mean Raine (the healer in Symphonia) rather than Rain (Raven's non-healing strike arte which I don't believe anyone has mentioned in this topic).
This should be a no-brainer. Symphonia's combat system is slower than Vesperia's, yet in spite of that Raine's healing spells are typically stronger and cheaper than Estelle's, with a more flexible range:
Nurse? 28% for 42 TP from Estelle, 40% for 28 TP from Raine.
Heal? 60% to one ally from Raine, Estelle doesn't get it.
Cure? Full restoration to one ally from Raine, Estelle doesn't get it. Comically it went to Flynn in Definitive and not her.
Raine (and Mint, and I hear Tear, and heck even Mikleo) also has what is widely considered to be a better AI.
Estelle really feels like a victim of overcompensation for healing being a little too good in the previous couple of games.
Do you really believe Estelle is somehow better than Raine? I really want to hear the rationale behind that, it must be quite entertaining.
I know you've got to clutch onto this point with everything you've got, but please understand it has nothing to do with healing.
Oh dear, you really haven't been reading.
Except what I said was a full list of why it's not as much of a problem for Rita as it is for Estelle. It was a direct and explicit explanation of why the two situations are different, and you completely ignored it.
I'm not going to let this go. I'm going to quote it again, in full, so everyone can see:
You just completely ignored everything you quoted. You have been caught dead to rights here.
The topic was about Nurse, but as you wish:
Two Nice Healing Smash are 50% stronger than one Nightingale, have a 20% cheaper TP cost, and are still faster.
One Nice Curing Smash is stronger than one Nightinggale, 45% cheaper TP cost and is even faster still!
I have mentioned both of these things* numerous times throughout this very topic. It's an extreme and rare situation that two party members on perfect opposite sides of a battlefield are taking damage for a sustained period of time, and even then whatever running Karol needs to do at all (if any) is shorter than Estelle's casting time.
Edit: *A clarification, healing smashes do not heal a maximum of two targets. They are AOE and can heal all four party members. Provided Karol targets someone else, they always heal at least two.
Moreover, in this situation where the hypothetical enemy/ies are damaging your party in all corners of the field at once, it's more likely than not that one of those party members is your healer. If that's a strike arte healer, no problem. If it's a mage healer, there goes all your healing!
Thinking about this a little more, if PVP were a thing in this game, Estelle would be absolutely garbage because human players would be even better than bosses sometimes are at making her useless.
Healing Artes, a chance-based skill, and a minor consideration. I'd have traded it for Light Magic given the chance.
No, I said if the boss is strong enough for you to need to worry about healing, then if it decides to focus on attacking Estelle, there is a very real possibility that she could get KO'd. This... shouldn't be rocket science.
I'd appreciate it if you stop saying I said things I haven't.
Let's make this clear. Estelle when left alone is quite able to heal fighters, and most of the time will be able to do so before they get KO'd. But there are absolutely times when her heal spells take so long to happen that the fighters will get KO'd before they process. And sometimes the battle could be won before they process, which is a nuisance rather than a threat.
This is because, with the exception of First Aid which is a single target weak heal, every last one of her healing spells is an AOE heal that takes several seconds to cast. Against bosses that can deal fatal damage in short bursts with little notice, this means her healing library is a problem. Strike arte healers on the other hand can whip out surprisingly capable heals in a fraction of the time which is much more useful in dangerous situations.
I can get by with Estelle as my party's main healer, but I have preferred not to ever since I noticed that with Karol performing the job I stopped experiencing the frustration of seeing party members KO'd just before Nurse, Nightingale or Revitalize processed.
Maybe this discussion isn't that I can't use Estelle (since I can, I can just use others even better), but that you can't use anyone else? Ah, hold on, you already admitted that, didn't you?
No one is better than Raine lol.
She can be built either group (Nurse/Healing Circle/Revitalize/FieldBarrier/Acuteness/Purify/Nullify) or single target (Heal/Cure/Permaguard/Keenness/Restore/Anti-Magic).
Her AI is superior to most other healers. She is smart, she changes her healing spell depending on the damage coming out. Her uptime on buffs is incredible. And she rarely just stands around doing nothing.
Although Elise from Xillia was a really good healer too. And she had more "oomph" as a caster with like 6 Dark based spells. Instead of 1-2 Light based that Raine and Estelle have.
Speaking of healers. After I'm done with ToV, I need to play Abyss on Unknown again and use Natalia as my main healer. I really like how she was done. I want another Bow/Healer in a Tales game.
Overall, if no BS happens, estelle is able to heal you easy, given you are able to either lock enemies in combo or avoid/block their attacks.
Estellise, well, apart from her cameo costume of Tear, which is lovely - is literally THE WORST party member if it comes to difficult situations on the battlefield.
Too bad the costum doesn't give her Tear's AI as well