Griefing in Competitive - How to prevent it

[dethriguez]

So I just got a ban for one team kill on Dust 2, at spawn.

I'm constantly being flash banged at spawn (with the rest of my team) by trolls. Sniping the middle lane from T start from the off, one flashbangs, as I come out of the flash, I shoot and he jumps straight in front of me, I kill, insta-ban at spawn.

Trolling needs to be prevented. 3 votes should counter-act 2 on a vote kick.. when 2 trolls get together, it RUINS a competitive game. This stupid system which doesn't counter-act trolls is making me want to quit playing anything but 5 man organised; where I know I don't get idiots trolling half the time.

[davep.]

Welcome to the internet.

[Sebastian Nielsen]

Maybe flashing teammates should give "violation points" too? I don't know what system Valve uses to deem when a team member does too much teamkills and teamdamage together to justify a instant ban, but I guess Valve uses some sort of point system that accumulates during the whole match and when its above some value, it kicks and applies a immediate cooldown.

The same system could be used for teamflash. A full 100% teamflash could be "worth" the same as 25 damage to a teammate, and a 50% flash (where the teammate gets the flash into her back) can be "worth" 12 damage.

So 4 full teamflashes would then count as a teamkill. Of course, it should be accumulated so doing a teamflash means you can do less damage to teammates before being kicked.

Also, a automatic system could be implemented that detects if a victim of a teamkill did teamflash, and if the victim did teamflash shortly before a teamkill, the teamkill could be ignored completely by the system. Also a teamkill caused by a enemy flash could be worth half the violation points of a "full" teamkill without flash. (since flashes are supposed to render teamkills sometimes - its even a achie for that: "The road to hell - Flash a enemy which then kills one of its own teammates.")


Voilá problem solved. The votekick system does not need to be changed.

[Bagbobilbins]

I like the idea of violation points for flashing at spawn. Also I think the kick system is fine how it is. I do wish the report system actually did something though.

[Sebastian Nielsen]

However, the Report system are intended for like cheaters and such. The limits of how much teamkills/teamdamage you can do is pretty harsh, so the report system should not be needed for such things.
The AFK system could however be improved so instead of a silent countdown of X minutes and then kick, it could be a short lets say 30 second countdown, but with the last 15 second are very clearly communicated, and dismissal of the AFK notice if you don't want to move (for example camping) could be done with F1/F2.
It could be done by the server "publishing" a vote to the client which say "You are AFK, kicking in 15 seconds, press F1 or F2 to dismiss this".

If my flash idea is implemented and the AFK system is improved,
Then the votekick system could be removed completely.

[dethriguez]

Moderating your games and community with an iron fist and not being able to apply situational awareness is a dangerous thing. The players should have the power to get rid of someone, ie. a 3 kick over a 2 vote should be counted as a kick. And the players should decide when someone damaging team mates too much or getting too many accidental (or purposeful) team kills is actually having an effect on their match.

The system was also implemented after initial launch and drastically changes the online playing experience, it's something that should have been met with a ToS and not a silent change. It's actually really stupid. I found I had no problems before hand when people could easily remove their foul team mates, now, because there is a clear system to be exploited, I see trolls running wild all over the place griefing as they know they can and avoiding the system in order to ruin others experiences.

Removing this system of bans would be effective, all it is also doing is also clogging the forums up showing just how this system, has made it a griefers paradise.

[Sebastian Nielsen]

No. Because people tend sometimes to votekick for illegit reason, I have even seen votekicks in the spawn of the first round without anything strange happened.

Its better to have a automatic algoritm/kicking/banning system.
But the underlying calculation algoritm needs to be good, so it kicks/bans guilty players, but don't kicks/bans innocent players.

A algoritm can be defined. Also a reputation could be assigned to each player, so a player that engages to teamdmg/teamkill/teamflash constitently, are being judged harder than a player that accidently AWPs off a teammate's head at mid in D2. Also leaves could be judged in this reputation too.

This can be done with a "fuzz" algoritm, so a player which constitently behaves bad, will get stricter judgement so for example a player which never has teamdmg any match may kill 3 teammates before being kickbanned for TK, but a player which have got banned 3 times in the last week for teamkill, will in the next match only get to kill one teammate, or maybe not even one teammate, before kickban.

The "fuzz" algorim could also cooldown like the cooldown periods, so a week without any violations will cooldown the "fuzz" algoritm further so that player can do more teamdmg than he could before.


A votekick system is bad in all aspects. In ESEA, they have some votekick system I see, but this votekick system are moderated, so if you votekick any player without valid reason, you will find yourself banned in 30 days and -100 karma (Invalid Kick from Server). Any votekicks can in ESEA be "protested" in such way.

So in my idea, REMOVE the votekick system completely, and instead replace it with a heavly improved anti-griefing algoritm.

So in other words, I agree with situational awareness, but the situational awareness should be coded into the algoritm!

[dethriguez]

An algorithm (autocratic) as opposed to self-governing (democratic) system has been proven to be bad in every single walk of life when fairness and equality is involved. Why bring it in to games?

[Sebastian Nielsen]

Nope. It depends on the algoritm. As a example, a Bayesian algorim could be perfect for moderating a forum for example.

The algoritm needs to be carefully tuned. A incorrectly tuned algoritm will cause mishaps and innocent players banned due to "trolls".

For example, say as your supposed 3/2 votekick. People have different tolerance levels. Lets say I get teamkilled, and a member of my team opens a votekick against the teamkiller. I find it no problem that he killed me, and vote no. Also the teamkiller vote no. Thats 2 no votes. If the rest of team votes yes, he will be kicked, even tough he didnt deserve a kick.


The "autocratic" system needs to have many variables, even there needs to be new brush entities, so for example func_enemycontact, that could be defined as: "Any player inside a func_enemycontact will have lower violation points assigned to himself when he does a teamkill/teamdmg/teamflash. Such brush entities should be placed at choke points, where opposing members may see each other."

So in other words - a HIGH QUALITY algoritm will beat any self-governing system.


For example, lets say this:
fuzz = a value between 0 and 1 based on player reputation, where 1 is a perfect behaving player, and 0 is a very bad behaving player. Fuzz will be reduced for a specific SteamID when that partucular player gets a Competitive cooldown, and increased when a time has elapsed without any violations.

enemycontact = is 2 when player is in a func_enemycontact, is 1 when player is not in a func_enemycontact.

timer = is 0 at beginning of round and 1 when 10 seconds of round has elapsed. Eg if 5 seconds has elapsed, timer is 0.5

The number of teamdamage a player may do, is fuzz*enemycontact*timer*300

Thats a example, but the algoritm needs to be improved further. Any damage done needs to be calculated as a percentage to the total damage allowed, since the values (fuzz enemycontact and timer) may change during round. When player has reached 100%, he is kickbanned.

[dethriguez]

That's a bad system. You sound in love with your theory and forget about the real world variables which aren't predictive.

[Sebastian Nielsen]

Which real world variables? The algoritm could be improved further, lets say, add the inverse of the distance to the nearest enemy. In other words, near a enemy = more teamdmg allowed, for example in a hectic fight.
Weapon could also be considered, for example some weapons which do low damage will have a higher violation points than weapons that kill in a single shot - since you have the ability to react and stop the attacking when you realize its a teammate.
HE grenades could for example be assigned the lowest violation points ever, since its with HE grenades that causes most "non-intentional" teamdamage.

But the algoritm needs to be somewhat exponental/logaritm based, so a HE grenade tossed at spawn will certainly assign much violations points to the player in question. Im thinking, Timer (in the above algorim, fuzz*enemycontact*timer*300) could be exponental. (Its increase speed increses with time)

As you see, the algoritm can be inproved so it can certainly with a true/false value decide if the teamdamage was intentional or not. More variables = higher quality algorim.

Another thing is that the win/loss of the round and the subsuquent round, needs to be considered. So a win round will assign less violation points to the teamdmgs done that round, and a double win round (since a teamkill previous round can affect the next round based on saved weapons) can assign even lower number of teamdmg - because then, obvious - the teamatk/teamdmg didnt have any effect on the outcome of that round and the subsuquent round.
Also algoritm as said, needs to take in consideration if you are in smoke or is flashed.

Also the skill group can be considered, a lower skilled player will be allowed a higher number of team damage, since he is a newbie, for example.


You understand now? Everything can be expressed in numbers, and theres a algoritm for everything :-)
"In numbers we trust!"

[dethriguez]

Big Brother is watching you - 1984.

[Bong]

nice avatar m9

[dethriguez]

Thread necromancy? Really? Let it die.

[fishingtime]

I think two votes of 3-2 initiated by two different players should nullify the need to have four yes votes.

[Mr. Skeltal]

Originally posted by Sebastian Nielsen:

However, the Report system are intended for like cheaters and such. The limits of how much teamkills/teamdamage you can do is pretty harsh, so the report system should not be needed for such things.
The AFK system could however be improved so instead of a silent countdown of X minutes and then kick, it could be a short lets say 30 second countdown, but with the last 15 second are very clearly communicated, and dismissal of the AFK notice if you don't want to move (for example camping) could be done with F1/F2.
It could be done by the server "publishing" a vote to the client which say "You are AFK, kicking in 15 seconds, press F1 or F2 to dismiss this".

If my flash idea is implemented and the AFK system is improved,
Then the votekick system could be removed completely.

Actually incorrect, you can use the report system and report for griefing, and overwatchers will agree with you.