Kernel Level Anti-Cheat is a Must Like Faceit

[BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤]

I wanted to start a discussion about a topic that has been on my mind lately: the need for Valve to implement a kernel-level anti-cheat system in their games. While there may be concerns about privacy, it's important to understand that a kernel-level anti-cheat can be a game-changer for the integrity and fairness of online gaming.

First, let's clarify what a kernel-level anti-cheat system is. In simple terms, it's a type of anti-cheat software that runs at a deeper level in your computer's operating system, making it more effective in detecting and preventing cheating in online games. This approach can significantly reduce the number of cheaters and enhance the gaming experience for all of us.

Now, some folks have expressed concerns about privacy issues when it comes to kernel-level anti-cheat. However, it's crucial to address these concerns. Valve, like other reputable gaming companies, understands the importance of safeguarding user privacy. They're not interested in intruding into your personal data or compromising your privacy. The primary goal is to protect the integrity of the game and ensure that everyone can enjoy a fair and cheat-free experience.

In fact, many other major game developers and publishers have successfully implemented kernel-level anti-cheat systems without any privacy breaches or issues. They've managed to strike the right balance between anti-cheat measures and user privacy. Valve can certainly do the same.

So, instead of immediately dismissing the idea of kernel-level anti-cheat due to privacy concerns, I think we should encourage Valve to explore this option further. After all, it's in the best interest of both the developers and the players to create a fair and enjoyable gaming environment.

Let's engage in a constructive conversation about this topic. Do you think Valve should consider a kernel-level anti-cheat, and if so, what safeguards and transparency measures would you like to see in place? Share your thoughts and let's work together to promote a more secure and cheat-free gaming experience.

[Kami]

Originally posted by Jesus:

and I actually studied IT, you just copy + pasted someones opinion about that topic and still don't understand a glimp of what kernel level really means and why people were concerned about privacy when valorant implemented it.

Let me clarify, if you give a programm on your PC "kernel level access" you give up all your security, they can change basically everything on your PC without your agreement or your knowledge. They can redirect websites when you surf the internet, collecting data like passwords of your bank account/paypal and so on. They can also manipulate different programs to work how they want.

that's not true and false, there is no way of doing that without patching patchguard and other security features out of the windows kernel first.

to even achive such a thing a bad actor would need to exploit a driver to load his own unsigned driver, which they already can do by using any none blacklisted windows driver.

anything else u mentioned can be done in userland without the kernel driver.

[Kami]

Originally posted by Pisstachios:

Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤:

Im a Senior Software Engineer

As a sys admin/engineer/dev-ops/developer who actually knows things about cybersecurity, you're just another terrible programmer in my eyes because you seem to be completely clueless about what an actual security ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ a kernel level anticheat poses.

First off, kernel level anti cheats can be bypassed by kernel level cheats. Second, while kernel level may be more effective at cutting down the amount of cheaters as it raises the level of effort to create hacks that bypass the AC, it's not even close to worth the cost.

Imagine someone compromises Valve's anticheat system. They're immediately gifted a botnet of millions of gaming systems they can use to mine crypto (Anybody remember when the ESEA client did that?) or lets say they're just malicious, they can literally ♥♥♥♥ with the firmware in your devices and cause irreparable damage to expensive components. Worst case, they can steal the identities of millions of people to be used for credit fraud and all kinds of other ♥♥♥♥, that each of us could be held liable for and at a minimum have to spend months to years cleaning up.

These risks are just not worth it. AI anticheat is in development and while it's taking Valve a long time to get it going, this is the future of anti cheat.

no they cannot, the driver has to be signed, otherwise you could claim that to every other system driver that these random motherboard manufactors drop are very dangerous or even the ones shipped with windows.

[Kami]

Originally posted by TheKillerChicken:

I am more for deep-learning AI modules as an anticheat system then a kernel-level one. I, for one am so glad Valve never resorted to Deneuvo anti-cheat/anti-tamper as that spaghetti code cesspool of a protocol uses more processing power per-game than NASA would ever use in an entire week.

ai has its limitation and could never actually accuratly spot and detect people wallhacking or aimbotting without catching a few legit players inbetween.

[KEBABPEEK]

Originally posted by MindlessDoctor:

no they cannot, the driver has to be signed, otherwise you could claim that to every other system driver that these random motherboard manufactors drop are very dangerous or even the ones shipped with windows.

There's already a bunch of different methods to map your own driver into kernel space by exploiting other drivers. For example the iqvw64e.sys intel driver. The difference is that those are commonly known, the driver I mean is actually on a windows blocklist since win11, so it can't be exploited on most machines in the future. It's only a matter of time until an exploit is found in a driver, or perhaps it has already been found, and is being exploited.

[Daniel]

What nobody says is, that if Valve makes a Kernel Level Anti-Cheat for CS2 on Windows, they also have to do it for GNU/Linux.

[Candyy]

Who is kernel?

[Kami]

Originally posted by Rainer Durchfall:

Originally posted by MindlessDoctor:

no they cannot, the driver has to be signed, otherwise you could claim that to every other system driver that these random motherboard manufactors drop are very dangerous or even the ones shipped with windows.

There's already a bunch of different methods to map your own driver into kernel space by exploiting other drivers. For example the iqvw64e.sys intel driver. The difference is that those are commonly known, the driver I mean is actually on a windows blocklist since win11, so it can't be exploited on most machines in the future. It's only a matter of time until an exploit is found in a driver, or perhaps it has already been found, and is being exploited.

that's what i've been saying before, if a bad actor wants kernel level, he can ship the virus with a bad driver to load his own.
claiming that by just having a driver installed is just like saying you got cmd.exe installed it can be abused heavily to make you a botnet.

[KEBABPEEK]

Originally posted by MindlessDoctor:

that's what i've been saying before, if a bad actor wants kernel level, he can ship the virus with a bad driver to load his own.
claiming that by just having a driver installed is just like saying you got cmd.exe installed it can be abused heavily to make you a botnet.

The point is, to load an unsigned driver, you exploit another driver that has a security vulnerability. Every driver more, is a possible security risk. Especially if the driver is running all the time, perhaps even in the early boot process (cough Vanguard cough).
Another thing would be privacy. If Valve would actually abuse their driver to do stuff like that is a whole other discussion though, I for sure don't trust Riot/Tencent with a kernel driver on my PC.
I for my part, would prefer to have no kernel AC implemented by Valve, and I really appreciate that Valve is trying their best to come up with an AC solution that doesn't pose a security/privacy risk, and, as a linux enthusiast, one that is compatible with pretty much every OS.

[Check ツ]

Originally posted by Pisstachios:

Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤:

Im a Senior Software Engineer

As a sys admin/engineer/dev-ops/developer who actually knows things about cybersecurity, you're just another terrible programmer in my eyes because you seem to be completely clueless about what an actual security ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ a kernel level anticheat poses.

First off, kernel level anti cheats can be bypassed by kernel level cheats. Second, while kernel level may be more effective at cutting down the amount of cheaters as it raises the level of effort to create hacks that bypass the AC, it's not even close to worth the cost.

Imagine someone compromises Valve's anticheat system. They're immediately gifted a botnet of millions of gaming systems they can use to mine crypto (Anybody remember when the ESEA client did that?) or lets say they're just malicious, they can literally ♥♥♥♥ with the firmware in your devices and cause irreparable damage to expensive components. Worst case, they can steal the identities of millions of people to be used for credit fraud and all kinds of other ♥♥♥♥, that each of us could be held liable for and at a minimum have to spend months to years cleaning up.

These risks are just not worth it. AI anticheat is in development and while it's taking Valve a long time to get it going, this is the future of anti cheat.

I have been playing Valorant since its release in 2020 at quite a high level (with immortals). I have come across in nearly 4 years of play time maybe 4 blatent cheaters which got banned either in the match we was playing or the very next day (I know this cause you get feedback from Riot when a player gets banned i.e “The player you reported is now banned thanks for helping to keep the community clean”. )

If there has been cheaters in my games aside from the 4 blatant cheaters I reported I don’t know and haven’t noticed. If the anti cheat is also helping in keeping the cheaters from using their cheats to its full potential then its also a win win situation as I haven’t noticed any aside from the 4 which was super obvious yet got banned extremely efficiently.

It seems to be doing a great job if you ask me and I play on average 2-3 competitive matches a day.

If I do decide to play CS2 it would be strictly on faceit

Now I am NOT implying theres no cheaters playing Valorant or Face it however I am implying its 1 million times better in experience, integrity and quality in your games.

Thats my experience yours maybe different

[ITSHIGHNOON]

If that's the case, a huge number of people will have to reinstall their Windows. I have tried to set up in the bios for valorant, but without success

[Kami]

Originally posted by Rainer Durchfall:

Originally posted by MindlessDoctor:

that's what i've been saying before, if a bad actor wants kernel level, he can ship the virus with a bad driver to load his own.
claiming that by just having a driver installed is just like saying you got cmd.exe installed it can be abused heavily to make you a botnet.

The point is, to load an unsigned driver, you exploit another driver that has a security vulnerability. Every driver more, is a possible security risk. Especially if the driver is running all the time, perhaps even in the early boot process (cough Vanguard cough).
Another thing would be privacy. If Valve would actually abuse their driver to do stuff like that is a whole other discussion though, I for sure don't trust Riot/Tencent with a kernel driver on my PC.
I for my part, would prefer to have no kernel AC implemented by Valve, and I really appreciate that Valve is trying their best to come up with an AC solution that doesn't pose a security/privacy risk, and, as a linux enthusiast, one that is compatible with pretty much every OS.

i get that, but no bad actor would actually focus on targeting one specific gaming group with an exploitable driver tho, they would just install the bad driver themself.
no matter how you turn it, to be get good, you have to run something on your pc that voids your privacy in the first place eg virus that does install a bad signed driver.

"If Valve would actually abuse their driver to do stuff like that is a whole other discussion though"

if you have that little trust about the company, then maybe you shouldn't be using steam or their products at all, cus anyday they could pull off something like that they do not need their own drivers to mess you up.

[forever alone]

i see u everywhere crying about kernel. Wont happen stop forcing it.

[åkiuara]

Originally posted by BLoCKANDLOADED ⭕⃤:

I wanted to start a discussion about a topic that has been on my mind lately: the need for Valve to implement a kernel-level anti-cheat system in their games. While there may be concerns about privacy, it's important to understand that a kernel-level anti-cheat can be a game-changer for the integrity and fairness of online gaming.

First, let's clarify what a kernel-level anti-cheat system is. In simple terms, it's a type of anti-cheat software that runs at a deeper level in your computer's operating system, making it more effective in detecting and preventing cheating in online games. This approach can significantly reduce the number of cheaters and enhance the gaming experience for all of us.

Now, some folks have expressed concerns about privacy issues when it comes to kernel-level anti-cheat. However, it's crucial to address these concerns. Valve, like other reputable gaming companies, understands the importance of safeguarding user privacy. They're not interested in intruding into your personal data or compromising your privacy. The primary goal is to protect the integrity of the game and ensure that everyone can enjoy a fair and cheat-free experience.

In fact, many other major game developers and publishers have successfully implemented kernel-level anti-cheat systems without any privacy breaches or issues. They've managed to strike the right balance between anti-cheat measures and user privacy. Valve can certainly do the same.

So, instead of immediately dismissing the idea of kernel-level anti-cheat due to privacy concerns, I think we should encourage Valve to explore this option further. After all, it's in the best interest of both the developers and the players to create a fair and enjoyable gaming environment.

Let's engage in a constructive conversation about this topic. Do you think Valve should consider a kernel-level anti-cheat, and if so, what safeguards and transparency measures would you like to see in place? Share your thoughts and let's work together to promote a more secure and cheat-free gaming experience.

They won't do it cuz 😂😂 this game gives em $ coming from the cheaters wallet.

[The Cave of Wonders]

All of these cheating problems go away when Microsoft starts caring about gaming, and allows Windows to be launched in a locked state, akin to how PS5 OS works.

Then when you want to play your games and have them be cheats free, you'd boot windows in "game-mode" and the OS would launch in a locked state where only specific pre-approved programs are allowed to run, end of story, end of cheating.

Anything short of a locked OS, it will always be a cat and mouse game, where the developers are always playing catch up to cheat markers, which means, cheaters in your games.

[H0w@rd]

tbh one of the worst anti-cheat Easy Anti Cheat is kernel level and that basically explains for itself i guess check out how horrible the finals and apex legends are flooding with these cheaters