CS2 feels weird compared to CS 1.6 or CS:Source

[ORION_z]

Hi all,

I have been playing CS2 now for about 2 to 3 weeks. I have never played CS:GO before. I am coming from CS 1.6 and CS:Source (Yes I'm relatively old), where we actually still have an active CS:Source community. I have further very good latency and great internet connection and an overall good gaming PC.

The issue is that I feel that CS2 compared to the old CS games has some discrepancies in the responsiveness. In the old CS games, I felt that AWP kills were instant, no lag time or delay. Now I feel that AWP shots seem to lag, I confirm cross hair on the body, make the shoot and some cases it misses. I do not have this issue in CS: Source....My cross hair on body is most of the time a kill.

Also sometimes I feel the kill I make is too fast, especially in some head shot (with for example an AK) moments. Its like the kill was registered instantaneously, even faster than my own response time, if that makes any sense. It almost feels as if the kill was made before I shot, some kind of prediction was made or something.

So in some cases a kind of lag or delayed response in other cases a kind of predicted kill based on where my cross hair is located.

Does this have anything to do with Damage Prediction??
Or is it something to do with Sub-tick rate??

Anyone feels this difference in AWP usage, as if its delaying the kill somehow?
Are the older games just more responsive?

What is exactly going on with this game?

[✡️Donald John Trump ☆☆☆ MAGA ☆☆☆]

The AWP is very different from CS 1.6, it got nerfed heavily. You can no longer quick scope, accurate no scope, and lower running speed. And the delayed kill feels kind of random to me. It's most likely because of the poor servers imo

[ORION_z]

Originally posted by 昆㹥慌想極度和心神分裂:

The AWP is very different from CS 1.6, it got nerfed heavily. You can no longer quick scope, accurate no scope, and lower running speed. And the delayed kill feels kind of random to me. It's most likely because of the poor servers imo

Was this nerfing also in CS:GO ? ....I mean did it start a while back?

[Calypsó]

my brother cs 1.6 is 20 years old of course its different

[AimNot]

There are damage prediction settings in the settings tab, try messing with that and see if it helps. Although yes you are right, the way hit detection works in this game is different to old CS.

[kabanod1m #NotoToxicity]

Originally posted by AUG ︻デーー:

Originally posted by 昆㹥慌想極度和心神分裂:

The AWP is very different from CS 1.6, it got nerfed heavily. You can no longer quick scope, accurate no scope, and lower running speed. And the delayed kill feels kind of random to me. It's most likely because of the poor servers imo

Was this nerfing also in CS:GO ? ....I mean did it start a while back?

yes, AWP got nerfed in CS:GO — no more quickscopes, no more accurate shots after landing on the ground for some time.

in CS2 however one thing changed that affected every AWPer who came from previous CS games. it doesn't cause any kill delay but still it's pretty massive. I know what does cause the kill delay though, I'll talk about it later in this post because first something else needs to be explained.
you see, in all previous CS games there was no subtick information for inputs. here in CS2 it's present.
what this means is that subtick effectively kills "flickshots".
flickshots were actually unintended behavior caused by lack of contextually required information about your shot, specifically — where you were looking and exactly when you've fired your shot was not taken into account, only the fact that you fired a shot was recorded.

so, yes, subtick is basically just two things — your camera rotation (where you've been looking at) and progress towards the next tick (when you've pressed a subtick-supporting input) as a floating point value.

I'll try to explain how it affects gameplay. let's assume that the game runs at 64 ticks per second. (on official servers it indeed does and always did) there are 15.625 milliseconds between each tick (1000ms/64=15.625)

in previous CS games: you see an enemy, but your crosshair isn't quite on the enemy yet. you press shoot early, when you're still looking at thin air, and the fact that you pressed shoot is recorded by your game client and placed into the input queue. there is still some time until the next tick happens. you, as a human player, have no idea how much — you're not counting milliseconds, so you pretty much have a random amount of time between 0 and 15.625 milliseconds to adjust your aim and put your crosshair on the enemy. now, after that random amount of time, your game decides that that's it — it's time to send a new tick to the server, and it slaps your camera angles (where you're looking at) at that exact moment when the tick change happens on top of your input queue. it was assumed that "yes, I released my A key while looking there, pressed my D key while looking exactly there and released it, and then shot exactly at the same place. and I did all that at the same time, too! but in that exact order". that's what community called "flickshots" — pressing fire before even looking at the target, and then readjusting the crosshair within 0-15.625 ms to hit the enemy.

now, in CS2, every input in the input queue has its own camera angles attached to it, as well as basically a timestamp — a floating point value between 0.0 and 1.0 describing "how much time has elapsed since the start of the current tick", where 0.0 — when the game has just sent a tick to the server, and 1.0 — when it's time to send a new tick to the server. basically a "tick progress bar".
this means that when you press shoot and your crosshair wasn't on the enemy, that's it, you've missed your shot! there's nothing you can do anymore, the game will tell the server that you shot there where there wasn't any enemy, at the time when there wasn't any enemy there, and the server will of course calculate that as a miss.

now, why some kills feel delayed and why it LOOKED like they weren't delayed before, and why the delay feels random — sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not.
you see, previously the shot effects (muzzle flash, gun recoil, unscoping, bullet tracer, bullet hole on the wall, etc) were played at the end of a tick, so not instantly. then it took (half your ping) milliseconds for your tick data to reach the server and (half your ping, but min. 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for the server to tell you that you've hit. so basically it always took (your ping, but min 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for you to see your hit.
now that with subtick you can shoot somewhere where you're not already looking at at the end of the tick, the community didn't like that shot effects still happened only at the end of a tick (because, well, it looked like they were shooting where they weren't looking!) and asked Valve to play the shot effects immediately after pressing shot, and Valve did so. so now your shot effects play BEFORE the tick is sent to the server. that means that it takes random amount of time between 0 and 15.625 milliseconds + (half your ping) + (half your ping but min. 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for you to get a reply from the server whether your shot has hit or not.

so yes, the random delay was always there, it just was in a different place…

regarding client prediction — it will force the client to also play hit effects without waiting for server confirmation right on the next frame, just like shot effects. you can turn it on but beware that sometimes the server might disagree with your client's calculations and you will see something that didn't actually take place.

P.S. "(half your ping but min. 0-15.625ms)" — minimum that random amount of milliseconds because the server also needs some time to process a tick. I mean if you have a ping of 1 millisecond it won't allow you to see your shots after 1 millisecond, or even 2 or 5, you'll have to wait for the tick to be done processing before the results can be sent to you.

P.P.S. to reiterate what changed — in CS2 you must aim first, shoot second. aim — confirm — shoot. it's logically correct and intuitive but I myself am still not as good with the AWP in CS2 as I was in CSGO, despite understanding how it works and knowing what exactly I'm doing wrong. muscle memory I guess…

[ORION_z]

Originally posted by kabanod1m #NotoToxicity:

now, in CS2, every input in the input queue has its own camera angles attached to it, as well as basically a timestamp — a floating point value between 0.0 and 1.0 describing "how much time has elapsed since the start of the current tick", where 0.0 — when the game has just sent a tick to the server, and 1.0 — when it's time to send a new tick to the server. basically a "tick progress bar".
this means that when you press shoot and your crosshair wasn't on the enemy, that's it, you've missed your shot! there's nothing you can do anymore, the game will tell the server that you shot there where there wasn't any enemy, at the time when there wasn't any enemy there, and the server will of course calculate that as a miss.

now, why some kills feel delayed and why it LOOKED like they weren't delayed before, and why the delay feels random — sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not.
you see, previously the shot effects (muzzle flash, gun recoil, unscoping, bullet tracer, bullet hole on the wall, etc) were played at the end of a tick, so not instantly. then it took (half your ping) milliseconds for your tick data to reach the server and (half your ping, but min. 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for the server to tell you that you've hit. so basically it always took (your ping, but min 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for you to see your hit.
now that with subtick you can shoot somewhere where you're not already looking at at the end of the tick, the community didn't like that shot effects still happened only at the end of a tick (because, well, it looked like they were shooting where they weren't looking!) and asked Valve to play the shot effects immediately after pressing shot, and Valve did so. so now your shot effects play BEFORE the tick is sent to the server. that means that it takes random amount of time between 0 and 15.625 milliseconds + (half your ping) + (half your ping but min. 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for you to get a reply from the server whether your shot has hit or not.

so yes, the random delay was always there, it just was in a different place…

Thank you Kaban for that technical and extensive answer.

In any case, if you now go play Counter Strike: Source...You will play a game where everything works instantly. At least thats the feeling I get when I play, it feels responsive, smooth and instant.

Furthermore, I really enjoyed Flicking especially as an AWP sniper. It felt so satisfying, fun and responsive.

[Renos]

Originally posted by AUG ︻デーー:

Hi all,

I have been playing CS2 now for about 2 to 3 weeks. I have never played CS:GO before. I am coming from CS 1.6 and CS:Source (Yes I'm relatively old), where we actually still have an active CS:Source community. I have further very good latency and great internet connection and an overall good gaming PC.

The issue is that I feel that CS2 compared to the old CS games has some discrepancies in the responsiveness. In the old CS games, I felt that AWP kills were instant, no lag time or delay. Now I feel that AWP shots seem to lag, I confirm cross hair on the body, make the shoot and some cases it misses. I do not have this issue in CS: Source....My cross hair on body is most of the time a kill.

Also sometimes I feel the kill I make is too fast, especially in some head shot (with for example an AK) moments. Its like the kill was registered instantaneously, even faster than my own response time, if that makes any sense. It almost feels as if the kill was made before I shot, some kind of prediction was made or something.

So in some cases a kind of lag or delayed response in other cases a kind of predicted kill based on where my cross hair is located.

Does this have anything to do with Damage Prediction??
Or is it something to do with Sub-tick rate??

Anyone feels this difference in AWP usage, as if its delaying the kill somehow?
Are the older games just more responsive?

What is exactly going on with this game?

To be fair your comparing 3 different engines and 3 different games that are 20 years apart from each other.

Without typing up a 50 page document detaling how CS2's netcode works in comparison to 1.6 and CSS
basically
CS2 is so radically different its hard to compare.
Technically CS2 has some of the fastest netcode put into any shooter,
You can't really beat the client rendering a response from the next server on the very next frame, Or hit prediction that does the same thing even faster.

But then you get into the whole debate of lag compensation, 1.6 and CSS had either no lag compensation or a very rudimentary form of it,

Or
Its not even a result of the netcode
In my opinion what you are experiencing is the vast difference in gameplay mechanics between all 3 games.
Maybe your framerate sucks in CS2
perhaps your end to end system latency
Have you spent the last 20 years only playing CSS on a CRT like your supposed to and now realize modern displays have a higher response times than a crt.

[TSB]

Here are the answers: AWP no damage cuz new sub-tick rate and new (bad) system of damage prediction. Also new game and movement mechanics cause such problems. In general, CS:GO was much better. CS2 is like a weak and not finished project. Still a lot of bugs and problems. As for CS:GO it was very optimized and playable. Less cheaters cuz of patrol.

[bAd a!m]

Hi there, welcome to CS2.

I think I know what you're saying. I'm an old times player and CS2 is slower compared to cs 1.6 and source. There's nothing wrong with your settings, there's no way to make CS2 as snappy as CS:S is.

All you can do is play and play and play until you get adjusted to it and don't go back to CS:S or 1.6

[skOsH♥]

Hit detection can feel instant with a good server and your client is also happily connected to the server in the most direct fashion and there is no loss or rubberbanding happening

It's instant against bots now in a workshop practice server

When I awp I don't see a delay, but I don't awp often so it might happen on some servers.

[ORION_z]

Originally posted by skOsH:

Hit detection can feel instant with a good server and your client is also happily connected to the server in the most direct fashion and there is no loss or rubberbanding happening

It's instant against bots now in a workshop practice server

When I awp I don't see a delay, but I don't awp often so it might happen on some servers.

Actually your right, many bot servers its snappy and instant, not always but most of the time. But that means CS2 may have big issues with their servers, assuming I have a very good and stable connection.

[kabanod1m #NotoToxicity]

Originally posted by AUG ︻デーー:

Originally posted by kabanod1m #NotoToxicity:

now, in CS2, every input in the input queue has its own camera angles attached to it, as well as basically a timestamp — a floating point value between 0.0 and 1.0 describing "how much time has elapsed since the start of the current tick", where 0.0 — when the game has just sent a tick to the server, and 1.0 — when it's time to send a new tick to the server. basically a "tick progress bar".
this means that when you press shoot and your crosshair wasn't on the enemy, that's it, you've missed your shot! there's nothing you can do anymore, the game will tell the server that you shot there where there wasn't any enemy, at the time when there wasn't any enemy there, and the server will of course calculate that as a miss.

now, why some kills feel delayed and why it LOOKED like they weren't delayed before, and why the delay feels random — sometimes it's there and sometimes it's not.
you see, previously the shot effects (muzzle flash, gun recoil, unscoping, bullet tracer, bullet hole on the wall, etc) were played at the end of a tick, so not instantly. then it took (half your ping) milliseconds for your tick data to reach the server and (half your ping, but min. 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for the server to tell you that you've hit. so basically it always took (your ping, but min 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for you to see your hit.
now that with subtick you can shoot somewhere where you're not already looking at at the end of the tick, the community didn't like that shot effects still happened only at the end of a tick (because, well, it looked like they were shooting where they weren't looking!) and asked Valve to play the shot effects immediately after pressing shot, and Valve did so. so now your shot effects play BEFORE the tick is sent to the server. that means that it takes random amount of time between 0 and 15.625 milliseconds + (half your ping) + (half your ping but min. 0-15.625ms) milliseconds for you to get a reply from the server whether your shot has hit or not.

so yes, the random delay was always there, it just was in a different place…

Thank you Kaban for that technical and extensive answer.

In any case, if you now go play Counter Strike: Source...You will play a game where everything works instantly. At least thats the feeling I get when I play, it feels responsive, smooth and instant.

Furthermore, I really enjoyed Flicking especially as an AWP sniper. It felt so satisfying, fun and responsive.

yes, there is a lot of science that goes into how it "feels". delay BEFORE shot effects is actually better to make it feel more instant than delay AFTER shot effects because it's harder for your brain to synchronize seeing&feeling of your click with something happening on the screen compared to synchronizing seeing something on the screen (shot effects) and seeing something else on the screen (enemy dying).

also I don't like one more thing, how it "feels". when I'm running into cover, and on my screen I'm already behind cover, but somebody with a high ping kills me with the AWP — I'm still not behind the corner on their screen — my dead body gets teleported back. it was like this in CS:GO, but it wasn't like this in CS2 at first, and I liked it! I liked not being teleported! I was still dying behind cover, but at least I wasn't getting teleported. but too much people complained about "getting shot through walls without wallbangs" and Valve added it back to show people that they were actually not yet behind cover I guess. but to me not being teleported feels better and more responsive, I don't know, I just don't like being teleported maybe.

as somebody else previously said, CS2 has the fastest netcode pretty much in the whole world, we're really hitting Internet and even physical imperfections at this point, and ALL ways to hide them are compromises — they either introduce being able to kill each other/ability to deal damage after death, and/or add a possibility of misleading client effects that don't actually represent what happened on the server, or they allow cheaters to have more power.

all previous CS games, including all other similar games, were no better than CS2, but they *felt* better. but at the same time they were more inconsistent than CS2 is.

the brain is really weird. if you put a button with a very distinct click that will turn the screen white (from black) in front of yourself after 150 milliseconds and press it you'll think it's instant. however when you remove the artificial delay (and the screen will light up in like 15 ms) it feels like the screen lit up before you actually pressed the button.

I guess Valve not only needs best network engineers but also best psychologists in the world if they want to satisfy their players. xD

also, one more thing — I still do play CS:S and CS 1.6 (CS:CZ actually) sometimes. I know how it feels, it feels snappier, true, but I notice myself missing shots that I now hit in CS2, and overall my hit registration is now better in CS2. I don't think I can go back, I am now relying on CS2's precision. maybe for a few fun games, but competitively — CS2 is the only way for me.

[Amy]

That`s f*&$% true!