For whom are 'Weird Science' and 'Sneaky ♥♥♥♥' optimal?

[speedingdeath]

I'm trying to decide on skills for my 4 core rangers, and its difficult enough trying to cover all of the non-combat skills in a way that maximises returns, but similarly, I keep seeing instances of both 'Weird Science' (WS) and 'Sneaky ♥♥♥♥' (SS) seeming like key skills for builds;

Allegedly the best melee armour requires WS, and also having a fast melee character with SS and Mechanics allows them to sneak in and disable some machine hazards.

There are powerful sniper options that require WS (an AOE gun and a high-damage gun, I believe), so I'm curious if these are merely interesting, or competitive with/better than non-WS weapons. Naturally, snipers want SS for the big first hit in the combat often killing something before the fight starts.

Heavies want WS because it increases power of flamethrowers. Heavies want SS because opening with a rocket can clear a fight in one hit, apparently. Is this the true best use of SS, assuming you have a rocketeer in the team?

Fextralife has an SMG build that uses WS; I'm not sure if that's a novelty, or if SMGs have the best energy/flame weapons generally? At least this build doesn't need SS.

I also haven't seen any particular synergy for small guns/leader characters to have either WS or SS, so at least they can skip those skills, if I'm not missing something.

More generally, does a team even benefit from having multiple characters with SS? WS at least seems like it adds damage for just about everyone, but perhaps if a certain class's best weapons/armour are *not* WS gear, then ideally they'd skip the skill and get something else.

Any insight from someone who is aware of what is available late game is appreciated, thanks.

[speedingdeath]

Escrito originalmente por BigRockWall:

Escrito originalmente por speedingdeath:

My fear about not taking WS is that I'll find, say, the best-in-slot item for one of my core characters, and be unable to use it because I spent their skill points on some non-combat thing that could have been on anyone else.

you can at any point go to ranger hq and replace any non story companion squad member. including your main. so if that happens go rebuild around it. the story companions are the only ones your stuck with the builds you choose for them

I was under the impression that you have to keep at least 1 of the 2 you create at the start of the campaign?

[BigRockWall]

Escrito originalmente por speedingdeath:

Escrito originalmente por BigRockWall:

you can at any point go to ranger hq and replace any non story companion squad member. including your main. so if that happens go rebuild around it. the story companions are the only ones your stuck with the builds you choose for them

I was under the impression that you have to keep at least 1 of the 2 you create at the start of the campaign?

No i just tested. You have to have 1 player created character in the party at all times. But you can dismiss all but 1, make a new one, then dismiss the remaining original

You also have to maintain at least 2 members in the squad. So the 1 player made, and at least 1 story companion is required to do a full player made character swap out, if thats what you want to do

[speedingdeath]

Escrito originalmente por BigRockWall:

Escrito originalmente por speedingdeath:

I was under the impression that you have to keep at least 1 of the 2 you create at the start of the campaign?

No i just tested. You have to have 1 player created character in the party at all times. But you can dismiss all but 1, make a new one, then dismiss the remaining original

You also have to maintain at least 2 members in the squad. So the 1 player made, and at least 1 story companion is required to do a full player made character swap out, if thats what you want to do

Ah, good to know. So outside of story decisions and NPC companions, you really can't screw up your party at all.

[Bloodwest]

Weird science has bonuses for energy attacks, which is "natural" enemy of robots. Theoretically can be great tincan melter if coupled with mechanics anti-mech bonus.
SS is pretty straightforward, it's sneak attack bonuses would fit perfect for sniper. Don't really get stealth part in this game so I kinda disregard this aspect. I mean, on top of stealth part infiltrator would more likely need bunch of other skills (e.g. mechanics, lockpick, nerd stuff, etc.) so you basically forced to drag entire team with you and not really benefitting from stealth.

[speedingdeath]

Escrito originalmente por Bloodwest:

Weird science has bonuses for energy attacks, which are "natural" enemy of robots. Theoretically can be great tincan melter if coupled with mechanics anti-mech bonus.
SS is like super obvious, it's sneak attack bonuses would fit perfect for sniper.

I understand what they do, it's more about what is the best way to take advantage of them.

While snipers get 1 good shot off, sneak attacks off of powerful AOE hits, or perhaps melee characters that need the positioning more, might be better overall.

[jamesc70]

Be wary and save before removing one of you two 'first made' characters; there is a bug some people get that sets them with -7 skill points.

[Uglypugger]

Max Charisma is great for the 35% increased special strikes. Put it on your SMG and Shotgun guys and they will decimate everything in sight.

[rumpelstiltskin]

WS4 is needed for the charm gun, which is insanely good. not only it neutralizes an enemy immediately, for 2 turns, but it even turns them on their buddies. and the weapon even has a cone aoe.

[NixBoxDone]

Escrito originalmente por speedingdeath:

Escrito originalmente por Incunabulum:

Sneaky ♥♥♥♥ is for your scout - the guy that goes first to scout out things, disarm traps, and silence alarms.

Its also useful, in general for everyone by allowing you a little more leeway when setting up for attacks.

Weird Science is for anyone you're going to want to use the weird science items. If you don't plan on making use of those it could, realistically, be completely skipped. Its a skill that, IMO, you won't miss if you don't take it.

My fear about not taking WS is that I'll find, say, the best-in-slot item for one of my core characters, and be unable to use it because I spent their skill points on some non-combat thing that could have been on anyone else.

I wouldn't be concerned about this. Most of the items I found so far requiring weird science needed between 3 and 7 of it - lategame and on a character that isn't dumb as a rock, that's maybe 2 levels.
I found a helmet requiring 3 weird science with my characters at around lvl 15 to 20 (not quite sure) and a level later I was wearing it. Easy peasy.
I'd say skilling it for a character that -might- need it is unnecessary, though if the character in question is planned to mainly use energy weapons then they're good skill-points due to the perks. Dealing extra damage for each point of armor or making an enemy an AoE no-go zone is pretty damn good even without items needing the perks.

[FALamunin]

Escrito originalmente por jamesc70:

Be wary and save before removing one of you two 'first made' characters; there is a bug some people get that sets them with -7 skill points.

this happened to me just now. I had to load an earlier save

[Stanley]

Weird science is good for anyone that can afford it at mid and late game. Many good weapons benefit from WS.

[Bloodwest]

Escrito originalmente por Stanley:

Weird science is good for anyone that can afford it at mid and late game. Many good weapons benefit from WS.

There is Exoskeleton set which is basically ideal for melee builds. Requires weird science as well.

[Darren]

Escrito originalmente por Bloodwest:

Escrito originalmente por Stanley:

Weird science is good for anyone that can afford it at mid and late game. Many good weapons benefit from WS.

There is Exoskeleton set which is basically ideal for melee builds. Requires weird science as well.

Only 3 ranks though. A trifling of points, I picked it up late game just to upgrade my armour on my gunslinger who'd already maxed out the 3 skills I wanted on them.

[Ichthyic]

"For whom are 'Weird Science' and 'Sneaky ♥♥♥♥' optimal? "

a sniper who uses a neutron projector as a perfect example.

great for a leader who uses an energy damage shotgun.

basically ANYBODY who you want to open a fight with a first strike energy/fire/ice weapon. this is how people are getting 20-40K crits on enemies with endgame weapons. or even a charged normal damage weapon. that charge perk you get at level 3 of WS adds quite a lot of damage for very little risk.

sneaky is also good for disarming traps that aren't explosive (mostly alarms) and weird science is good for hacking computers and other tech items (often substitutes for nerdstuff or mechanical, with a lower requirement to succeed at the same task even).

[Ichthyic]

" though if the character in question is planned to mainly use energy weapons then they're good skill-points due to the perks. "

no. not just energy. fire and ice scale the same way with weird science. it's quite important for a flamethrower build.