Reaver a little underpowered?

[Darkfireslide]

I finally built a Reaver for the first time, and hoo boy, was not ready for this.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1961268107

Literally a damage difference of 2 points vs the Electrocutioner, and more HP and Armor. I have a side-by-side comparison with an Electrocutioner using the same exact mods and I'm just really underwhelmed. For a unit that costs so much, I would really expect something better. Especially since this unit can theoretically be one-turn killed by even small amounts of Psi damage because it has Large Target and can't even take cover. I get the devs were trying to make tier 4's weaker, but this just feels like a waste of resources. I can get turn reset from tons of other units, and I don't need to spend 64 cosmite to do it, either. Am I missing something about this unit? It just seems really bad to me.

[Malarky Enthusiast]

Look closer and read all the tooltips carefully

[Darkfireslide]

Care to elaborate? I understand how the unit works.

[Archaon The Never-Chosen]

t4's are mostly support units. the reaver can give several units their action points back after they spend them essentially doubling the turn effeciency of a army it is in. also it can get all its health back instantly by switching forms. don't make t4's for dps

[Sinsling]

You missed a lot about it really.

[Darkfireslide]

Originally posted by Archaon The Never-Chosen:

t4's are mostly support units. the reaver can give several units their action points back after they spend them essentially doubling the turn effeciency of a army it is in. also it can get all its health back instantly by switching forms. don't make t4's for dps

I see now that it can re-energize multiple other units at a time, but... It still just... doesn't seem that good? I don't know. Most of the high tier units in this are underwhelming. :/ I watched a Wrecker get one-turn killed by a psi unit and I just really feel like high tier units are a waste. Especially with limited cosmite.

But, apparently tier 4's are supports across the board so idk. It just feels weird.

[Malarky Enthusiast]

It also ignores line of sight with a repeating attack, causes stagger and is itself stagger immune.

[harleyquinrazer]

The veterans will probably express this better, but breaking down the package gives:

1. Ranged arc attack with stagger and no LOS penalty.
2. Transform to small target melee mode which also heals.
3. Re-energize gives selected units close to each other within the ability range all of their action points and removes status debuffs. Especially useful if said units have attacked and their targets are nearly dead, finish them off on the same turn so that they don't inflict damage on the opposition turn.
4. Small target melee form cannot be flanked and is stagger resistant. More movement points than Reaver form.
5. Multiple strike melee attack that heals per successful strike.
6. Special one AP melee attack that instantly kills target on successful check or does 1.5 times the damage of a regular melee attack with no heal on failure.
7. Option to transform back to Reaver form depending on tactical situation.

I'm in agreement with the earlier statement that the OP is too fixated on the damage numbers. Very fun unit to use, but the full value isn't realised if it's alone or spammed.

If the OP really wants a tier 4 unit that is built up to deal damage above all else, the Amazon, Kir'Ko and Syndicate offerings should be more to the taste since they have secondary attacks which are wide area and high damage.

[sandman25dcsss]

I wonder what OP thinks about Ascended Teacher if they care just about damage numbers.

[Charlando[SunsOfStmChrts]]

did we miss the part where he can installkill tier1-2 units?

[Prometheus]

Reaver I'd say is in the top end of the t4s that are good but not too good. Its not OP bullcrap like Harb but its not outright bad for its cost like the Dvar one.

[NINJEW]

the reaver is in the top 3 best t4s what is this, it lets 3 units take a free turn. you can wipe someone's whole army out in a single turn with this kind of boost

if you just want big numbers your options are the earth crusher and the herald of oblivion

Originally posted by darkfireslide:

Most of the high tier units in this are underwhelming. :/ I watched a Wrecker get one-turn killed by a psi unit and I just really feel like high tier units are a waste. Especially with limited cosmite.

But, apparently tier 4's are supports across the board so idk. It just feels weird.

wreckers are just bad is the sad truth here. most t3s are worthwhile but the cosmite cost means you have to think about building them or not, your t2s and some of your t1s will remain relevant for most of the game because of cost efficiency, you can't just start wholesale replacing them when you unlock t3s.

[Darkfireslide]

I appreciate everyone pointing out what the Reaver's strengths are, although maybe I wasn't really clear on the reason that I find it to be so underwhelming: the cosmite cost compared to relative efficiency. I see now that it does have some powerful abilities, including the ability to reset other units' turns, but the fact remains that modded its cosmite costs are 4 times that of a tier 2 unit, meaning that if cosmite is a limited resource that I can build 4 tier two units for the same price as a single Reaver.
In the very late game this isn't as much of an issue, but this design philosophy discourages me from building the unit almost at all compared to other strategy games, where getting better technology results in units that are more expensive but generally speaking are more efficient (even if only situationally so, like Colossus in SC2). This is the whole point of risking tech in a strategy game instead of spamming. I do not see a situation where having a single Reaver would be better than having 4 separate tier 2 units except in the very late game when I have an abundance of resources and the match is more or less already decided.

[sandman25dcsss]

Well, the problem is not that unique for reaver. I tend to ignore tier 3 units also, especially the latter ones. What's the point of researching them if my colonies can't afford spending so many turns on building them and I am always low on cosmite anyway.

[harleyquinrazer]

Originally posted by darkfireslide:

I appreciate everyone pointing out what the Reaver's strengths are, although maybe I wasn't really clear on the reason that I find it to be so underwhelming: the cosmite cost compared to relative efficiency. I see now that it does have some powerful abilities, including the ability to reset other units' turns, but the fact remains that modded its cosmite costs are 4 times that of a tier 2 unit, meaning that if cosmite is a limited resource that I can build 4 tier two units for the same price as a single Reaver.
In the very late game this isn't as much of an issue, but this design philosophy discourages me from building the unit almost at all compared to other strategy games, where getting better technology results in units that are more expensive but generally speaking are more efficient (even if only situationally so, like Colossus in SC2). This is the whole point of risking tech in a strategy game instead of spamming. I do not see a situation where having a single Reaver would be better than having 4 separate tier 2 units except in the very late game when I have an abundance of resources and the match is more or less already decided.

Using your analogy, it boils down to whether or not those four units can do the same heavy lifting a modded Reaver can in combat. From personal experience, a properly modded Reaver has little to no trouble defeating 4 modded tier 2 units if it comes down to a straight fight. Whether or not that's worth the research and production investment is purely down to player preference. The same argument applies for all of the tier 4 units and as other have noted many of the tier 3 units as well.

[Sinsling]

Originally posted by darkfireslide:

I appreciate everyone pointing out what the Reaver's strengths are, although maybe I wasn't really clear on the reason that I find it to be so underwhelming: the cosmite cost compared to relative efficiency. I see now that it does have some powerful abilities, including the ability to reset other units' turns, but the fact remains that modded its cosmite costs are 4 times that of a tier 2 unit, meaning that if cosmite is a limited resource that I can build 4 tier two units for the same price as a single Reaver.
In the very late game this isn't as much of an issue, but this design philosophy discourages me from building the unit almost at all compared to other strategy games, where getting better technology results in units that are more expensive but generally speaking are more efficient (even if only situationally so, like Colossus in SC2). This is the whole point of risking tech in a strategy game instead of spamming. I do not see a situation where having a single Reaver would be better than having 4 separate tier 2 units except in the very late game when I have an abundance of resources and the match is more or less already decided.

The reaver costs less in everything but cosmite compared to 3 t2 units, so cost efficiency isn't really a problem.

Tech wise, rushing most t4s is off the table simply because it will take ~30 turns to get one with with full tech rush vs having multiple stacks of anything else, including certain t3s. Quite frankly, they are luxury units that usually come in to play too late to really be worthwhile. Their only real purpose is as a force multiplier to help break deadlocks by bringing extreme support or offensive tools. They are not intended to win the game themselves.