Balanced build order?

[snuggleform]

Is there any consensus on a good "baseline" build order in terms of sector specializations/colony buildings? Part of what I find overwhelming in this game is just not knowing which direction to take. Coming from a starcraft background I liked having a basic framework buildorder like the 1/1/1 terran building or protoss 4 gate; I know this game's different but I hope you can see my desire for some structure in what to build.

Yes yes it depends on your scenario/goals, but nonetheless can something be said?

E.g. let's say you intend to build an army fairly constantly and you're going for either domination or doomsday thereafter; forget about water sectors for simplicity; my current best guess is

Central buildings - at this point in time I'm pretty settled on just building energy reactors on everything. Economist doctrine + energy reactors means you enjoy huge energy reserves without necessarily having to invest in energy sectors, and energy is super important to recruit heroes, enact doctrines, launch operations of all varieties, and is effectively the cap on your army size.

I expect to have a significant energy upkeep due to militia buildings and also because I plan to spam tier II skirmishers (whether they be secret tech or racial). I've really been struggling on this - at one time I used to go 1 energy core in HQ just to keep things going, then being greedy and going science on others. I also considered going replicator in HQ and energy elsewhere, as the HQ really gets bottlenecked with infrastructure but also wants to churn out units to steadily support the frontline. Is one of the options I mentioned the best, or is there something else? As a beginner I used to go food but I'm pretty wary of that option as I find 1 food sector in a colony is enough.

Sector specs - always start 1 food sector (bioengineering), otherwise the city just grows too slowly. In the HQ, nowadays I really like going double production sectors (civil/basic military) + 1 energy sector (energy efficiency) in that order thereafter, because again I really expect the HQ to be the one churning out units and it just gets bottlenecked if you don't go hard on production.

In expansion colonies, I like to go double science after food. Largely the reactor cores + economist takes care of energy issues for the early game, food has been taken care of due to the first sector, and unit production is relegated to the HQ, and at this point you really need to look to the future and address the science bottleneck.

As far as research orders, it's a bit flexible but I actually have been paying a lot of attention to operational strength lately as it largely prevents the enemy from doing super annoying things like fabricating casus belli (they usually declare war shortly if they're successful on this!!) or draining your energy (energy is good!). I go frontier -> food improvement -> two levels of op strength -> covert ops up to secret society. With 3 doctrines, I go builder/economist/secret society. From there the research is fluid and depends on the map topology and enemy actions.

[Wintermute]

There's no optimal way. You need almost everything, sooner or later. You can cut some corners in military research when you know exactly which units/mods you need, but resources and civil tree in almost its entirety are non-optional, and are always needed yesterday.

Your initial colonies will be dictated entirely by world generation anyway. Do note you can export food to cities that don't produce it.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by Wintermute:

There's no optimal way. You need almost everything, sooner or later. You can cut some corners in military research when you know exactly which units/mods you need, but resources and civil tree in almost its entirety are non-optional.

Your initial colonies will be dictated entirely by world generation anyway. Do note you can export food to cities that don't produce it.

I do not expect there to be an optimal way for all situations; as stated I'm still looking for some overall guidance.

If, what you say is true that you need everything sooner or later, is what I proposed at least reasonable? I.e. everyone gets 1 food sector (this satisfied food in my experience) HQ goes replicator + 2 productions, everywhere else goes 1 reactor + 2 science. If army costs are exorbitant I'll cut down science for energy but that usually happens pretty late in the game.

[BBB]

As a very general guideline, I specialise my cities according to required resource, and then I stop them growing after 2 sectors, apart from a few which I expand more . These larger cities are usually my production centres, and the smaller cities are often food and energy.


I rarely build science focussed cities to be honest, because I find I use the same lower tier units and mods for most of the game.

I've also been playing alot with slow settings recently, so fast science just doesn't work there.

[Wintermute]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

Originally posted by Wintermute:

There's no optimal way. You need almost everything, sooner or later. You can cut some corners in military research when you know exactly which units/mods you need, but resources and civil tree in almost its entirety are non-optional.

Your initial colonies will be dictated entirely by world generation anyway. Do note you can export food to cities that don't produce it.

I do not expect there to be an optimal way for all situations; as stated I'm still looking for some overall guidance.

If, what you say is true that you need everything sooner or later, is what I proposed at least reasonable? I.e. everyone gets 1 food sector (this satisfied food in my experience) HQ goes replicator + 2 productions, everywhere else goes 1 reactor + 2 science. If army costs are exorbitant I'll cut down science for energy but that usually happens pretty late in the game.

Well, first question is, do you plan to reach the endgame? If you don't, it takes a lot of load off sector planning, as you probably won't go beyond level 3. If you do, you better account for all the sector bonuses, because level 5 sectors are stupidly powerful.

With that in mind, assuming initial layout is in my favor (which 9/10 times it isn't), I prefer my first city to be food/science based, and second - energy/production. That way first colony will grow rapidly, boosting my science and eventually starting to export food, while second turns into production center with cheaper units. After that it's just chase for more science/energy/food to sustain my growth, with at least second production center for heavy units later on. Plus Cosmite, naturally. Production in general is, on one hand, not as valuable as other 3 resources. On the other, it makes second colony resource develop much quicker and can be converted into energy/science. So it's probably worth more than I give it credit for.

As for civil science, for me it always turns into massive cluster♥♥♥♥. Roads are mandatory, the sooner the better. And you need all 4 resources, naturally, which are the same way. You kinda need to rush science first to get other things faster, but without energy/production those upgrades take small eternity to build, and without food colonies don't grow to even get them. Then there are doctrines, most of which are trash except that one in the middle that would be insanely powerful for me right now. Good thing I rushed science before to get it faster. Except now all my energy went "poof", because when I was chasing resources, I neglected operational defence, and some "ally" syphoned it all away. On the other hand, would I be rushing defences, I wouln't have that energy in the first place.

That's why I say there are no optimal ways in civil tree - you need everything, because it all directly impacts what kind of trouble you'll be in the next turn. Most of the time I'm just plugging some immediate holes.

As for city layouts - it's all good and fun, but entirely depends on the world generation. Do you need energy badly enough right now to not have it level 5 later? Is that landmark worth taking, even though other sectors around it are literal ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥? Is that cosmite node worth dealing with the unending march of psi-fish that keeps assaulting it? Decisions, decisions.

[NixBoxDone]

Almost impossible to have a general build order because what you need depends almost entirely on where you spawn, what sectors are around you, what buildings or features are in that sector, what faction you are, which ops are in effect, what you got out of fight rewards, etc. tt.

There's just no "do this and you'll be aight" list you could come up with that wouldn't be wrong in some situations. Generally the only "always do this" thing to come to mind is to prioritize the tech for colonizers and the tech for getting more of the mod resource.
You'll need the former for more colonies quicker so you can snowball and the latter to mod your units and reduce KIAs in fights by improving their quality.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Almost impossible to have a general build order because what you need depends almost entirely on where you spawn, what sectors are around you, what buildings or features are in that sector, what faction you are, which ops are in effect, what you got out of fight rewards, etc. tt.

There's just no "do this and you'll be aight" list you could come up with that wouldn't be wrong in some situations. Generally the only "always do this" thing to come to mind is to prioritize the tech for colonizers and the tech for getting more of the mod resource.
You'll need the former for more colonies quicker so you can snowball and the latter to mod your units and reduce KIAs in fights by improving their quality.

I actually suspect that starting location doesn't have nearly as big an influence as you hint at here. The sector features mean absolutely nothing (unless volcanic which is very rare and you know what you're getting into if you specify that terrain) until you get a lot of research done so the early game should be the same regardless of terrain features.

If it does, and I'm happy to be wrong, can you give examples of starting locations that significantly change the way you build?

I don't think doctrines make that big a difference either, and my reasoning is that the first 3 doctrines should always be builder -> economist -> secret society without exception unless you just want to have fun. Those 3 doctrines are absolutely critical to getting your economy going up in a significant way. Going past those first 3 doctrines is pretty much going past the early game, at which point I would agree the choices open up, but before then I don't actually see it as a factor that changes the early build order.

I'm honestly a little bit curious/skeptical (not in a hostile way, just in a curious way) that these factors you mentioned really mean all that much. The impression I get from you and others is that this question absolutely has no answer since it's completely obscured by a bewildering number of factors that change the answer drastically. I feel like that is too extreme a view, as is of course a "one size fits all" which is on the other extreme but I never asked for that. I'm looking for some in between guidance.

Again, I don't expect an "optimal" build, and I don't expect a super clean cut "do this and you'll be fine" but let's make my question a little bit more specific - if I do what I do, will I generally be OK? I seem to be addressing each bottleneck at some point. (i.e. 1 food sector takes care of food, HQ becomes production powerhouse to maintain an army pipeline, reactor cores + economist on other colonies to keep the energy flowing, then stuff in as much science as possible on the outer colonies so we don't get science blocked). Is there something you can point out that I could be doing better with my build?

Also has anyone does some math on when food sharing "makes sense?" I shied away from it because of the hefty 40% tax, but I can see how if you start a colony really late in the game and your other colonies have 16+ pop that it might make sense to "smooth out" the food by sharing as new colonists cost less food based on existing population so it's "better", even with the tax, to send food to a new colony, but I haven't done the math. If the math hasn't been done, any general guidelines? When does it "make sense" to have a dedicated food export colony? What are the pros and cons of doing something like make your HQ a breadbasket, vs make HQ a production powerhouse?

[Wintermute]

It boils down to sector specializations. If you are making dedicated army-builder colony, there's no reason not to go 2/2 energy/production. Cheaper units, cheaper rushes, extra production and armor bonuses. Those cities can ♥♥♥♥ out whole armies in matter of 2-3 turns later into the game. What's going to feed that colony though? Food import from somewhere else. And food sectors have specialization that reduces the export tax.

There's also question of sector upgrades. They are pretty big production investments, especially for cities that don't have any. If you keep exploitations in pairs, it allows to build their levels up that much faster. Bonus points for matching climes and terrain. So I generally don't like to have more than 2 exploit types per colony. That means i mostly export food from its own dedicated colonies. Works fine enough.

[snuggleform]

Well for a dedicated army builder, wouldn't it be 2 energy, 1 production, 1 science? Extra ranked units is pretty strong. Anyways we're splitting hairs.

When you have cities that don't produce food, do you use the "share half" or do you share all from the agricultural colonies?

[NixBoxDone]

Originally posted by snuggleform:

Originally posted by NixBoxDone:

Almost impossible to have a general build order because what you need depends almost entirely on where you spawn, what sectors are around you, what buildings or features are in that sector, what faction you are, which ops are in effect, what you got out of fight rewards, etc. tt.

There's just no "do this and you'll be aight" list you could come up with that wouldn't be wrong in some situations. Generally the only "always do this" thing to come to mind is to prioritize the tech for colonizers and the tech for getting more of the mod resource.
You'll need the former for more colonies quicker so you can snowball and the latter to mod your units and reduce KIAs in fights by improving their quality.

I actually suspect that starting location doesn't have nearly as big an influence as you hint at here. The sector features mean absolutely nothing (unless volcanic which is very rare and you know what you're getting into if you specify that terrain) until you get a lot of research done so the early game should be the same regardless of terrain features.

If it does, and I'm happy to be wrong, can you give examples of starting locations that significantly change the way you build?

I don't think doctrines make that big a difference either, and my reasoning is that the first 3 doctrines should always be builder -> economist -> secret society without exception unless you just want to have fun. Those 3 doctrines are absolutely critical to getting your economy going up in a significant way. Going past those first 3 doctrines is pretty much going past the early game, at which point I would agree the choices open up, but before then I don't actually see it as a factor that changes the early build order.

I'm honestly a little bit curious/skeptical (not in a hostile way, just in a curious way) that these factors you mentioned really mean all that much. The impression I get from you and others is that this question absolutely has no answer since it's completely obscured by a bewildering number of factors that change the answer drastically. I feel like that is too extreme a view, as is of course a "one size fits all" which is on the other extreme but I never asked for that. I'm looking for some in between guidance.

Again, I don't expect an "optimal" build, and I don't expect a super clean cut "do this and you'll be fine" but let's make my question a little bit more specific - if I do what I do, will I generally be OK? I seem to be addressing each bottleneck at some point. (i.e. 1 food sector takes care of food, HQ becomes production powerhouse to maintain an army pipeline, reactor cores + economist on other colonies to keep the energy flowing, then stuff in as much science as possible on the outer colonies so we don't get science blocked). Is there something you can point out that I could be doing better with my build?

Also has anyone does some math on when food sharing "makes sense?" I shied away from it because of the hefty 40% tax, but I can see how if you start a colony really late in the game and your other colonies have 16+ pop that it might make sense to "smooth out" the food by sharing as new colonists cost less food based on existing population so it's "better", even with the tax, to send food to a new colony, but I haven't done the math. If the math hasn't been done, any general guidelines? When does it "make sense" to have a dedicated food export colony? What are the pros and cons of doing something like make your HQ a breadbasket, vs make HQ a production powerhouse?

All the time, almost. First thing I do is clearing the surrounding sectors to find out what resources I have access to and how much of each. Generally I like to specialize my settlements to produce very much of any one given resource so I am looking out for the most abundant resource for my main city to focus around.
This gets modified a bit by what I play though. If I play the Syndicate I usually like to try for more energy early to bust out larger numbers of cheap indentured, but I'll still abandon that for something else if the surrounding sectors all happen to have labs, for example.

Depending on what that first settlement will become I'll be on the lookout with my scouts to find an area that would shore up a different area of my economy and try to rush a colonizer over to handle that ASAP.

That said, maybe that's just personal preference. I really dislike "wasting" natural resources so that's how I play. A more competitive player might point out a strategy that's more generally viable that'd be new to me. ^^

[VDmitry]

Normally you need to adapt to the environment. For example you don't need food sectors in each colony if you have lot of rivers or doctrines providing more food. Actually it's not bad idea to specialize your cities, so you don't need to build too many buildings in particular.

[Promethian]

I have found going food core on every city with economist doctrine I can skip making food sectors and a food specialized city. This way every city comes out as productive in a way and none are hard lichpins to my economy like a food specialized city would be. Also the growth is so good early on that most my cities spike to 12 in short order.

[snuggleform]

Originally posted by VDmitry:

Normally you need to adapt to the environment. For example you don't need food sectors in each colony if you have lot of rivers or doctrines providing more food. Actually it's not bad idea to specialize your cities, so you don't need to build too many buildings in particular.

Well, let's not assume any rivers or other features; in that simple case then what's the answer? Also I don't find I have room for a bona fide food doctrine; like I said I'm pretty sure builder -> economist -> secret society are mandatory first picks (barring some rush tactics where you put in war monger).

Originally posted by Promethian:

I have found going food core on every city with economist doctrine I can skip making food sectors and a food specialized city. This way every city comes out as productive in a way and none are hard lichpins to my economy like a food specialized city would be. Also the growth is so good early on that most my cities spike to 12 in short order.

Ah, I like this kind of feedback, it makes me check my assumptions again. How do you balance out energy/science for your case?

Maybe the "answer" I'm looking for is more like a flowchart with several options to deal with each bottleneck

1) decide how to deal with food. If you ignore food entirely, your growth is significantly stunted. You can either do this by making 1 food sector (bioengineering) per colony, or by doing what promethian says here food core + economist.

2) have one colony be your production workhorse, speccing as much production as possible (or as near to max as possible if you did the food core thing)

3) pay respect to energy. Either do this by going reactor cores + economist on a lot of colonies, or if you're going food core then energy sectors are the solution. It's a really bad idea to ignore energy since you need it to pay off bribes (casus belli when you fail covert ops or take a territory near them), pay your troops, hire new heroes, enact operations

4) any slack should be picked up by research.

[Tzyder]

keep in mind you can build a central building to start with then dismantle it and build a differnt one later

[snuggleform]

I tried prometheans food + economist idea; it's not bad in the early game as it's roughly equivalent to bioengineering sector, but the problem is that compared to a bioengineering sector the city growth is significantly slower when you get to around 15 pop and the gap just grows past that. If you're looking for long term growth you're just going to have to suck it up and get a food sector.

This reinforces my idea of spamming reactor cores outside perhaps the HQ or your production site.

[Promethian]

Yes, you make energy sectors with the food core strat. The key advantage is you'll get those sectors up and running fast since every city is growing quickly. Late game a food city is probably in order but I've found most my games are decided before that becomes a factor.