Zenith - syndicate t4 ship - needs work.

[Ichthyic]

ok, looking at this thing...

everything is too short range. both the regular and the cataclysm cannon need range 9 to be competetive with every other similar type of unit. or else leave the main guns at 7 range, but the cataclysm cannon is simply not powerful enough to warrant starting off on cooldown, ESPECIALLY a bloody 2 turn cooldown. for comparison, the t3 dwarven ships broadside do not start on cooldown, and even have a smoke generator to use as a cooldown for a single turn, instead of two for the cataclysm.

come on devs, zenith needs some love man.

[Welt]

That's a floater, not a ship. While it can certainly help out on water, its main purpose is land army support. So you probably shouldn't compare it to other faction battleships, but to their tree end T4s. It doesn't fare too poorly in that comparison, imo. (Drone Carrier, anyone?)

Range 7 Cataclysm Cannon is still ridiculous though, I don't disagree.

[Blastom]

It shines with map wide buff and full heal, to me. It generally a support unit, so its damage output is not supposed to be the same as combat oritent ones.
But well, it's still better than some of the other Tier4 on pure damage output.

The cooldown on first turn is not very important, as it's a 24 move unit, it cannot reach the best fire position anyway.

The Dvar Dreadnought suffers from dropping from 32 move to 24 for the broadside and aoe cannon, comparing to other ships. And generally, navy units is stronger than land ones.
Tier 4 is locked on 24 move.
The mad preacher has 32 move, but it's combat capability is pretty meh. Most of its skills requires some one to get killed to be functional, while it's main attack is mainly a single unit control with to hit check.
So I think it's still fair. Zenith is one of the worthy tier 4 to me.

[Ichthyic]

the cooldown is TWO turns, not one. most combats are over before you even get to fire the cannon, and then it's only 7 range; again, very very unlike every other unit that has a similar aoe attack.

nah, it's fubar. you clearly haven't tried using it offensively. at 7 range, the accuracy is 55. no, really.

this thing is actually WORSE at doing damage than a fully upgraded t1 indentured. not at all kidding.

[Blastom]

Originally posted by Ichthyic:

the cooldown is TWO turns, not one. most combats are over before you even get to fire the cannon, and then it's only 7 range; again, very very unlike every other unit that has a similar aoe attack.

nah, it's fubar. you clearly haven't tried using it offensively. at 7 range, the accuracy is 55. no, really.

this thing is actually WORSE at doing damage than a fully upgraded t1 indentured. not at all kidding.

I think it's not good for something start with cooldown 2. Probably some mistake on data.

I built only one of it so far and used only in a couple of battle in final stage. It's just a music ship to me.

[Ichthyic]

one good thing... if you get a heavy mech factory you can slap 7 extra armor on it. I tend to just use it as a moving cover platform. with the drive tech, every time it does anything other than move, it pretty much regenerates all of its health. but that's nothing specific to that unit; ANY t4 would serve the same role :P

[BigRockWall]

T4s generally not worth the cosmite. Both cost to build and upkeep. However, I would always strive to build 1-2 zenith or harbingers. Damage output aside, the map wide buff makes having 1-2 worth the cosmite.

You're right, it's got dps options that are sub par compared to the dvar t4. But its map wide damage buff, potentially adding 25% damage to 24 units all at once, just makes it take a big fat dump all over every t4 in the game save the harbinger in terms of actual damage output

[Ichthyic]

meh. I think it's only 20% + morale (but if you need morale by the time you are making these things, you're doing something wrong).

plus 20% damage buff isn't that great frankly. the reason the harbinger is a game changer is because of the guidance buff (if you don't already have a kirko hero doing it).

[BigRockWall]

I mean when you get right down to it, as I and many have stated in other threads, t4s just typically not worth building period across all factions. The 2 that stand out as being sometimes worth building if the game lasts long enough is the harbinger and zenith, specifically because of the map wide buffs. Harbinger clearly superior as it has 2 buffs and can deal some serious damage on it's own. I just dont think you are giving the buff enough credit. It's quite good. Think of it as a free 4th mod slot for all affected units. I was pretty sure it gave damage but it's been awhile u might be right about it only being morale. And if it is only morale, there is always a point to having more morale. Higher crit chances, and effective resistance to mind break abilities.

But the cosmite upkeep and 24 move range and tech requirements are where I have problems with it and all the other t4s. So many games I've won with only t1-2s

[Ichthyic]

it gives both; 20% damage and 200 morale. the morale is pretty useless as you are usually already at full morale by the time you build these. 20% applies to base damage remember, so in the end it amounts to on average 2-3 points of extra damage per attack.

looking at it like another mod slot is a good way to look at it though.

the harbinger does guidance (25% accuracy, 2 extra distance - which also increases accuracy if you're already in range). and vengeance which is a separate buff that adds 25% damage. again, I rarely found the 25% bonus damage a game changer, but adding all that accuracy and range? that's an amazing power. if you have ranged heroes, even if kirko, it then frees them up to attack on their first turn instead of casting guidance themselves. if you DON'T have kirko heroes... it becomes a HUGE game changer if you can build even one to add to your army.

I never felt like that about the zenith.

[BigRockWall]

I might be mistaken, but doesnt that 20% get added to base, then multiplied by all your % damage mods. So if it adds 2-3 damage as you say, and your units have say 50% damage added from 2 mods, now its 3-5 damage added. And if that's over 24 units that means 75-100 damage per turn added (which equals having an extra stack of indentured in the fight, for example). Far more than the difference between the zenith individual attack damage compared to earth crusher. Even more if that morale boost gives you crits you wouldnt have gotten. Harbinger still better, no doubt. I just stand behind my statement of dont discount the zenith buff. It makes the unit potentially worth using, where as drone carrier and earth crusher are not worth the cosmite upkeep or slow move speed.

Single stack vs single stack it becomes alot less ideal to waste the resources on the zenith

[Ichthyic]

nope. each mod applies its percentage to the base damage only. it's additive, not multiplicative.

so if you have 3 x 30% mods on a 10 base damage weapon, that's 19 damage.

if you buff that unit for 20% more, that still only adds 2 more points of damage.

200 morale amounts to 10% increase in crit chance... provided you aren't already at 20% crit chance from morale, which is the cap for that, which you hit at 400 morale... which is what you get if you go to war with a faction with at least 10 points of causus beli, or you start two wars with moderate.

it's also the same you get from being friendly with your race (200 morale).