Worst Mistake SEGA ever made?

[nem]

What do you think the WORST MISTAKE SEGA EVER MADE is ?

[Ikagura]

Nguyên văn bởi gamerz31w:

Quitting their hardware business 19 years ago. Cancellation of Sonic X-Treme seven scenarios. Instead of playable Tiara Boobowski we had Blaze the Cat in Sonic Rush,Sonic Rush Adventure. Sega Genesis/Mega Drive,Sega Pluto,Sega Dreamcast CD-ROM & 32X(32-bit hardware) add-ons. Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric,Sonic Forces(time paradoxes),Sonic Generations(even Epic Mickey had both 3D gameplay styles which lacked in Sonic Forces Classic Sonic level sections) (it was good game, but little bit too short),Sonic Unleashed,Sega Heroes and the other mobile Sonic game spin-offs. Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces are slightly different than Super Mario Odyssey, Crash Bandicoot 4.

Excuse me? How is Blaze the Cat less good than Tiara Boobowski (what is that name?).

Also what is this "seven scenarios" thing? Adventure already struggled to implement 6 characters back then.

The Sega Pluto never game out for a good reason.

How is the DC the worst mistake (right after saying "quitting their hardware buisness").

Nguyên văn bởi Cheese:

Nguyên văn bởi N.U.L.L:

this game is just Sonic 3K with drop dash

"It's just arguably the best game in the series with a fun new move after decades with no Sonic game playing anything like the beloved Genesis originals"
Damn you right, what a huge mistake on SEGA's part.

Yes, I'm surprised people think that Mania isn't good.

[NBOX21]

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

How is the DC the worst mistake (right after saying "quitting their hardware buisness").

Especially considering Sonic Adventure 2 was one of the last games released on the Dreamcast and arguably one of the best games on the system. It almost felt like one last hurrah before quitting the console market, and it could've very well been the last Sonic game ever made as a result. Hence why that game felt so special whereas almost every other game after doesn't even come close quality wise.

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

Nguyên văn bởi Cheese:

"It's just arguably the best game in the series with a fun new move after decades with no Sonic game playing anything like the beloved Genesis originals"
Damn you right, what a huge mistake on SEGA's part.

Yes, I'm surprised people think that Mania isn't good.

Honestly, the worst thing I can even say about Mania is the lack of originality with most of its zones (should've been a 50/50 balance of old and new content) and the whole game feels like it could've been on the Saturn rather than on modern platforms. Otherwise it's the best Sonic game released in a long time.

[Ikagura]

Nguyên văn bởi NBOX21:

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

How is the DC the worst mistake (right after saying "quitting their hardware buisness").

Especially considering Sonic Adventure 2 was one of the last games released on the Dreamcast and arguably one of the best games on the system. It almost felt like one last hurrah before quitting the console market, and it could've very well been the last Sonic game ever made as a result. Hence why that game felt so special whereas almost every other game after doesn't even come close quality wise.

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

Yes, I'm surprised people think that Mania isn't good.

Honestly, the worst thing I can even say about Mania is the lack of originality with most of its zones (should've been a 50/50 balance of old and new content) and the whole game feels like it could've been on the Saturn rather than on modern platforms. Otherwise it's the best Sonic game released in a long time.

Mania being a Saturn game fitted the original intend of the game tho...

[NBOX21]

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

Mania being a Saturn game fitted the original intend of the game tho...

Plus it still looks way better than Sonic Forces despite it looking like a modern game. The simple reason being that Mania has a far stronger presentation and visual appeal, which Forces was incredibly lacking. It's like comparing the Wii menu to the Switch menu.

[VolnuttHeroP64]

Nguyên văn bởi NBOX21:

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

Mania being a Saturn game fitted the original intend of the game tho...

Plus it still looks way better than Sonic Forces despite it looking like a modern game. The simple reason being that Mania has a far stronger presentation and visual appeal, which Forces was incredibly lacking. It's like comparing the Wii menu to the Switch menu.

The thing about Forces is after Mania, when Classic Sonic was thrown into the Phantom Ruby's time warp, Robotnik saw his chance to take over & without Classic Sonic around in the Past, no one can stop him.

So my playthrough of Forces was about Freeing Mobius and returning Classic Sonic to his own time before both the Past & Present Sonics vanish into the Time Warp Paradox caused by the Phantom Ruby.

Sonic Mania Plus continues where Forces left off where the Time Warp Paradox is still in effect in the Past even though Classic Sonic is back in the Past fighting Robotnik but Robotnik has already started his advance by capturing Mighty & Ray.

[VolnuttHeroP64]

Nguyên văn bởi gamerz31w:

Classic Sonic from Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces is from another dimension,but in Sonic Generations Classic Sonic(he's like Mickey Mouse) seems to be Modern Sonic(he's much taller than his original design kind of like Bugs Bunny,Oswald the Rabbit) from the past and the future.

Classic Sonic is from the Past as stated in Generations.

[matohin]

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

Nguyên văn bởi NBOX21:

Especially considering Sonic Adventure 2 was one of the last games released on the Dreamcast and arguably one of the best games on the system. It almost felt like one last hurrah before quitting the console market, and it could've very well been the last Sonic game ever made as a result. Hence why that game felt so special whereas almost every other game after doesn't even come close quality wise.


Honestly, the worst thing I can even say about Mania is the lack of originality with most of its zones (should've been a 50/50 balance of old and new content) and the whole game feels like it could've been on the Saturn rather than on modern platforms. Otherwise it's the best Sonic game released in a long time.

Mania being a Saturn game fitted the original intend of the game tho...

Sonic Mania isn't a Saturn game and will never be. Look at the difference between Rockman X and Rockman X4 to see how big of a jump there was between 16bit and 32bit sprite games. Now look at Mania using edits of sprites from Sonic 1 and 3 along with a few new frames of animation. Wow, sure does feel like a Saturn game and not recycling assets from Whitehead remakes. Oh look, most of the enemies are ported straight out of those remakes. Most bosses have similar behavior to already existing ones, lots of reused gimmicks and almost no originality at all. Such fun! What do you mean Saturn games used a lot of prerendered and 3D assets even in 2D? Here, have a 3D Special Stage and that's all you get. Why is Blue Sphere almost identical to the one in the S3&K Remake pitch? Totally not because it was reused because Iizuka didn't let Mania Team to even make actual bonus stages, no no no. Why is Mirage Saloon's Act 1 just Sky Chase with reskinned enemies, why do all acts of Mirage Saloon reuse visuals straight from the cut Desert Dazzle and why is Act 2 so incredibly short and bland? Gee, sure not because the game is literally just a mess made out of recycled assets and code.

[Dark Redshift]

Nguyên văn bởi matohin:

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

Mania being a Saturn game fitted the original intend of the game tho...

Sonic Mania isn't a Saturn game and will never be. Look at the difference between Rockman X and Rockman X4 to see how big of a jump there was between 16bit and 32bit sprite games. Now look at Mania using edits of sprites from Sonic 1 and 3 along with a few new frames of animation. Wow, sure does feel like a Saturn game and not recycling assets from Whitehead remakes. Oh look, most of the enemies are ported straight out of those remakes. Most bosses have similar behavior to already existing ones, lots of reused gimmicks and almost no originality at all. Such fun! What do you mean Saturn games used a lot of prerendered and 3D assets even in 2D? Here, have a 3D Special Stage and that's all you get. Why is Blue Sphere almost identical to the one in the S3&K Remake pitch? Totally not because it was reused because Iizuka didn't let Mania Team to even make actual bonus stages, no no no. Why is Mirage Saloon's Act 1 just Sky Chase with reskinned enemies, why do all acts of Mirage Saloon reuse visuals straight from the cut Desert Dazzle and why is Act 2 so incredibly short and bland? Gee, sure not because the game is literally just a mess made out of recycled assets and code.

^
This.

[matohin]

Nguyên văn bởi gamerz31w:

Well Mirage Salloon was also reference to Sonic 2 Beta Dust Hill Zone. In Sonic Mania there were even Flying Battery Zone,Lava Reef Zone.Also Sonic Mania wasn't 3D Classic Sonic game. Sonic Mania was more like Sonic CD remake.

Dust Hill Zone is just a name and we aren't sure if that's the actual name for the zone. The only prototype that has Dust Hill Zone in it shows Mystic Cave occupying that slot and the only desert zone we know is Sand Shower, which is only seen on concept arts. The thing Desert Dazzle originally referenced was the Sonic 2 Desert Zone mockup that was a part of a magazine (it's an obvious mockup aswell). And then Mirage Saloon, just like other Mania zones, was a recycling of all assets that were made for the Whitehead Remakes, including even the unreleased stuff. I am also not sure, but a lot of stuff like Flying Battery, Lava Reef and the Spinning Orbs in Titanic Monarch were probably there because of the cancelled S3&K mobile remake having a lot of things remade - we already know that Mania+ intro stage is essentially an edited version of the remake's Angel Island, especially since the early versions had some remains of it's Act 2 aswell. Plus, from what i've seen on TCRF and other sources, in early stages Mania's Flying Battery had all of it's gimmicks taken directly from S3&K, but then many things got replaced with Wing Fortress gimmicks or just gimmicks from other zones.

[Cheese]

Nguyên văn bởi matohin:

Sonic Mania isn't a Saturn game and will never be. Look at the difference between Rockman X and Rockman X4 to see how big of a jump there was between 16bit and 32bit sprite games. Now look at Mania using edits of sprites from Sonic 1 and 3 along with a few new frames of animation. Wow, sure does feel like a Saturn game and not recycling assets from Whitehead remakes. Oh look, most of the enemies are ported straight out of those remakes. Most bosses have similar behavior to already existing ones, lots of reused gimmicks and almost no originality at all. Such fun! What do you mean Saturn games used a lot of prerendered and 3D assets even in 2D? Here, have a 3D Special Stage and that's all you get. Why is Blue Sphere almost identical to the one in the S3&K Remake pitch? Totally not because it was reused because Iizuka didn't let Mania Team to even make actual bonus stages, no no no. Why is Mirage Saloon's Act 1 just Sky Chase with reskinned enemies, why do all acts of Mirage Saloon reuse visuals straight from the cut Desert Dazzle and why is Act 2 so incredibly short and bland? Gee, sure not because the game is literally just a mess made out of recycled assets and code.

I can't agree with the bit about bosses. The majority of them are reasonably new or novel.
Many of them may feature references to or assets and ideas from older games, but tend to play quite differently (e.g.: piloting the Screw Mobile to fight Eggman in a diving suit).

Considering cut content and ideas from previous games to be old and derivative seems strange to me. This is something that happens with game sequels in general all the time and you usually just don't know about it, unless the devs explicitly tell you, people datamine games, betas, prototypes, etc., or ancient concept art is unearthed.
I simply don't see how it matters that assets from Desert Dazzle were used when no one ever got to play Desert Dazzle before.

Otherwise, completely agreed.
I think it's probably a consequence of Sega not seeing the potential of a proper new Sonic game that plays like the classics (even with everyone asking for exactly that, incessantly, for decades) and not giving the time and resources to create totally original content, paired with their insistence on reusing old zones, enemies, and bosses in basically every major Sonic game since Generations.
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume most content reuse is the devs trying to create the fullest experience possible with the little Sega allowed them to work with, but yeah, that doesn't change that at the end of the day I'm playing through a bunch of old zones doing a bunch of things I've already done before.
They probably did the best they reasonably could, but it's definitely a huge shame we didn't get something far more original.

[VolnuttHeroP64]

Nguyên văn bởi gamerz31w:

Sonic IDW Comics,Sonic Forces. Sega partnership with Sammy and Atlus(nowadays they are just like Konami),Hardlight(mobile game spin-offs developers). Closing Sega Enterprises and Sega Technical Institute. Being third party company and their fake promises of returning into being first party company. Chris Senn being involved in Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric.
https://gamecrate.com/mario-vs-sonic-2017-why-odyssey-worked-sonic-forces-failed/17783
Nintendo Sega exclusives. Sonic '06 as Microsoft,Sony exclusives(in case of Space Channel 5 they never made third installment,but something VR instead). Only two installments of Sonic Drift(instead we had Sonic R,Sonic Riders,Sonic Riders Zero Gravity,Sonic Free Riders,Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing,Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing Transformed,Team Sonic Racing,Sonic Shuffle(Sega Dreamcast as final console),Sonic Unleashed(mobile port),Sonic 1(gba port),Sonic movie(in past they were mutliple curious attempts)Sonic flossing dance reference to Fortnite Battle Royale(in past Sonic the Hedgehog met Jazz Jackrabbit),mobile games Sonic Dash,Sonic Fever,Sonic Jump(rip-off of Icy Tower),Sonic Boom 2 Dash. Sega ending up partnership with Archie Sonic Comics.
https://gamecrate.com/what-if-sega-never-left-console-business/17610

Sonic R, Sonic Riders, Sonic Zero Gravity were good games along with Unleashed.

[NBOX21]

Nguyên văn bởi matohin:

Nguyên văn bởi Ikagura:

Mania being a Saturn game fitted the original intend of the game tho...

Sonic Mania isn't a Saturn game and will never be. Look at the difference between Rockman X and Rockman X4 to see how big of a jump there was between 16bit and 32bit sprite games. Now look at Mania using edits of sprites from Sonic 1 and 3 along with a few new frames of animation. Wow, sure does feel like a Saturn game and not recycling assets from Whitehead remakes. Oh look, most of the enemies are ported straight out of those remakes. Most bosses have similar behavior to already existing ones, lots of reused gimmicks and almost no originality at all. Such fun! What do you mean Saturn games used a lot of prerendered and 3D assets even in 2D? Here, have a 3D Special Stage and that's all you get. Why is Blue Sphere almost identical to the one in the S3&K Remake pitch? Totally not because it was reused because Iizuka didn't let Mania Team to even make actual bonus stages, no no no. Why is Mirage Saloon's Act 1 just Sky Chase with reskinned enemies, why do all acts of Mirage Saloon reuse visuals straight from the cut Desert Dazzle and why is Act 2 so incredibly short and bland? Gee, sure not because the game is literally just a mess made out of recycled assets and code.

I never said it was a Saturn game. I'm just saying it felt like one considering how the sprites, backgrounds and various other details feel like they could've been on the Saturn. I know this because the PS1 and Saturn are similar in terms of hardware capabilities, and I've played plenty of 2D PS1 games that look similar. No doubt the Saturn would be able to handle this game if they really tried. Especially seeing as Castlevania Symphony of the Night looks like a 16 bit game, but does so much more than what 16 bit hardware could possibly allow.

Nguyên văn bởi Cheese:

I can't agree with the bit about bosses. The majority of them are reasonably new or novel.
Many of them may feature references to or assets and ideas from older games, but tend to play quite differently (e.g.: piloting the Screw Mobile to fight Eggman in a diving suit).

Even as early as Green Hill Zone, Act 2's boss was pretty much the Death Egg robot from Sonic 2, yet felt completely different from how it was in Sonic 2, bringing new life into something old making it feel somewhat fresh again.

[matohin]

Nguyên văn bởi gamerz31w:

Sonic IDW Comics,Sonic Forces. Sega partnership with Sammy and Atlus(nowadays they are just like Konami),Hardlight(mobile game spin-offs developers). Closing Sega Enterprises and Sega Technical Institute. Being third party company and their fake promises of returning into being first party company. Chris Senn being involved in Sonic Boom Rise of Lyric.
https://gamecrate.com/mario-vs-sonic-2017-why-odyssey-worked-sonic-forces-failed/17783
Nintendo Sega exclusives. Sonic '06 as Microsoft,Sony exclusives(in case of Space Channel 5 they never made third installment,but something VR instead). Only two installments of Sonic Drift(instead we had Sonic R,Sonic Riders,Sonic Riders Zero Gravity,Sonic Free Riders,Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing,Sonic and Sega All-Stars Racing Transformed,Team Sonic Racing,Sonic Shuffle(Sega Dreamcast as final console),Sonic Unleashed(mobile port),Sonic 1(gba port),Sonic movie(in past they were mutliple curious attempts)Sonic flossing dance reference to Fortnite Battle Royale(in past Sonic the Hedgehog met Jazz Jackrabbit),mobile games Sonic Dash,Sonic Fever,Sonic Jump(rip-off of Icy Tower),Sonic Boom 2 Dash. Sega ending up partnership with Archie Sonic Comics.
https://gamecrate.com/what-if-sega-never-left-console-business/17610

Sonic 1 GBA was a blessing. Most videogame ports are just useless trash, especially with Sonic 1 where most of them are ♥♥♥♥♥♥ emulators that are horrible even in comprasion to fanmade ones. Sonic 1 GBA was a hillarious mess and that's the best part.

[matohin]

Nguyên văn bởi Cheese:

Nguyên văn bởi matohin:

Sonic Mania isn't a Saturn game and will never be. Look at the difference between Rockman X and Rockman X4 to see how big of a jump there was between 16bit and 32bit sprite games. Now look at Mania using edits of sprites from Sonic 1 and 3 along with a few new frames of animation. Wow, sure does feel like a Saturn game and not recycling assets from Whitehead remakes. Oh look, most of the enemies are ported straight out of those remakes. Most bosses have similar behavior to already existing ones, lots of reused gimmicks and almost no originality at all. Such fun! What do you mean Saturn games used a lot of prerendered and 3D assets even in 2D? Here, have a 3D Special Stage and that's all you get. Why is Blue Sphere almost identical to the one in the S3&K Remake pitch? Totally not because it was reused because Iizuka didn't let Mania Team to even make actual bonus stages, no no no. Why is Mirage Saloon's Act 1 just Sky Chase with reskinned enemies, why do all acts of Mirage Saloon reuse visuals straight from the cut Desert Dazzle and why is Act 2 so incredibly short and bland? Gee, sure not because the game is literally just a mess made out of recycled assets and code.

I can't agree with the bit about bosses. The majority of them are reasonably new or novel.
Many of them may feature references to or assets and ideas from older games, but tend to play quite differently (e.g.: piloting the Screw Mobile to fight Eggman in a diving suit).

Considering cut content and ideas from previous games to be old and derivative seems strange to me. This is something that happens with game sequels in general all the time and you usually just don't know about it, unless the devs explicitly tell you, people datamine games, betas, prototypes, etc., or ancient concept art is unearthed.
I simply don't see how it matters that assets from Desert Dazzle were used when no one ever got to play Desert Dazzle before.

Otherwise, completely agreed.
I think it's probably a consequence of Sega not seeing the potential of a proper new Sonic game that plays like the classics (even with everyone asking for exactly that, incessantly, for decades) and not giving the time and resources to create totally original content, paired with their insistence on reusing old zones, enemies, and bosses in basically every major Sonic game since Generations.
I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt and assume most content reuse is the devs trying to create the fullest experience possible with the little Sega allowed them to work with, but yeah, that doesn't change that at the end of the day I'm playing through a bunch of old zones doing a bunch of things I've already done before.
They probably did the best they reasonably could, but it's definitely a huge shame we didn't get something far more original.

Cut content and ideas from previous games isn't bad when everything else makes up for it. Sonic 3 had some zones inspired by Sonic 2's concept art and Mushroom Valley originally looked similar to Wood Zone. Mirage Saloon would have been fine if Act 1 wasn't Sky Chase and Act 2 wasn't really short and simple without almost any interesting gimmicks.

There's stuff like that diver boss, and then there's stuff like Chemical Plant midboss, which is a slightly different IceCap midboss, or GHZ boss, where it's a weaker Death Egg Robo. There are a few nice bosses - like Oil Ocean's Act 2 boss, and even Crimson Eye would have been nice if Phase 1 was original.

[matohin]

Nguyên văn bởi NBOX21:

Nguyên văn bởi matohin:

Sonic Mania isn't a Saturn game and will never be. Look at the difference between Rockman X and Rockman X4 to see how big of a jump there was between 16bit and 32bit sprite games. Now look at Mania using edits of sprites from Sonic 1 and 3 along with a few new frames of animation. Wow, sure does feel like a Saturn game and not recycling assets from Whitehead remakes. Oh look, most of the enemies are ported straight out of those remakes. Most bosses have similar behavior to already existing ones, lots of reused gimmicks and almost no originality at all. Such fun! What do you mean Saturn games used a lot of prerendered and 3D assets even in 2D? Here, have a 3D Special Stage and that's all you get. Why is Blue Sphere almost identical to the one in the S3&K Remake pitch? Totally not because it was reused because Iizuka didn't let Mania Team to even make actual bonus stages, no no no. Why is Mirage Saloon's Act 1 just Sky Chase with reskinned enemies, why do all acts of Mirage Saloon reuse visuals straight from the cut Desert Dazzle and why is Act 2 so incredibly short and bland? Gee, sure not because the game is literally just a mess made out of recycled assets and code.

I never said it was a Saturn game. I'm just saying it felt like one considering how the sprites, backgrounds and various other details feel like they could've been on the Saturn. I know this because the PS1 and Saturn are similar in terms of hardware capabilities, and I've played plenty of 2D PS1 games that look similar. No doubt the Saturn would be able to handle this game if they really tried. Especially seeing as Castlevania Symphony of the Night looks like a 16 bit game, but does so much more than what 16 bit hardware could possibly allow.

Nguyên văn bởi Cheese:

I can't agree with the bit about bosses. The majority of them are reasonably new or novel.
Many of them may feature references to or assets and ideas from older games, but tend to play quite differently (e.g.: piloting the Screw Mobile to fight Eggman in a diving suit).

Even as early as Green Hill Zone, Act 2's boss was pretty much the Death Egg robot from Sonic 2, yet felt completely different from how it was in Sonic 2, bringing new life into something old making it feel somewhat fresh again.

Sonic Mania isn't a game impressive in sheer length or mechanical improvements, a game that's almost 100% the same to the previous 2D installment in gameplay with 16-bit graphics wouldn't be allowed. Sonic Mania looks like a 16-bit game without having anything to make up for it. Games that weren't that different from their precursors on Saturn 2D usually made up for it by being extremely good visually, musically and control-wise. Rockman X4 isn't that different from the previous games, but it's use of both prerendered visuals and spritework is absolutely incredible, along with fully voiced, anime-styled, high budget cutscenes and lots of visual effects on levels. Sonic Mania isn't long, isn't that different from previous games and yet looks almost exactly the same as them.