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i have no opinion on buffs as this is my first time playign the game lol
https://postimg.cc/gallery/JzKvbzj
I haven't tested those myself, as I don't have either of the Purple or Yellow Kotenok's or S21's.
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KOTENOK AND S21 PROBLEMS:
The Kotenok and S21 are rather problematic as a type of weapon since the Feb patch or the one before. The problem is the RECOIL WHEN USING A SCOPE. It seems that they changed that and it really is terrible. There also is a chance that it has something to do with the combination of other attachments, but still seems almost always the case.
The S21 only allows a 6-12x Scope or higher, which is problematic because it isn't that accurate at range, takes a while to settle after the barrel returns to level after firing, and one of these (forget which) has a problem where it seems that if you are moving even a little when you switch to it, it tends to aim toward the sky at first, instead of level with the horizon and the center of your view.
So the S21 is either decent to good as an UN-SCOPED BATTLE RIFLE where the Recoil to your view is less and recoverable (still have to wait a tad after it settles from recoil or you will miss a lot), or requires using a long-range scope which it doesn't have the power or accuracy to use effectively.
The Kotenok is similar, but doesn't require a long-range scope, hits harder per shot if the Damage Graphs are accurate in the Inventory (often they aren't, at least not comparing one weapon to a different one). They fire about the same speed, and therefore, it seems in practice for me, that the Kotenok is slightly more effective, slightly.
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COMPETITORS MAKE MORE SENSE USUALLY:
-- Vintovka is more powerful, has a better effective range, but it has only 5 rounds, has a quick FULL RELOAD (as it is a clip in the game similar to and M1 Garand, like in Saving Private Ryan Movie). SLOWER FOR A PARTIAL RELOAD. The Vintovka single shots most Runners, Kotenoks occasionally will if you hit the fuel tank, S21 even less often. Muesser Hunting Rifle and Algudstudsare Hunting Rifle both are better at one-shot kills on Runners than either the Kotenok or S21.
-- So the S21 and Kotenok use more common bullets, 7.62 to kill enemies, but they fire faster and are almost like a semi-automatic carbine in short-medium ranges. AG-4 has less recoil and works well with 1-4x Scope has a larger clip and fires faster with selective fire (auto, semi-auto, and even Burst).
-- With familiarity both can be adequate, but sometimes they seem to over-penetrate even with 7.62 FMJ, and this seems due to a bad recoil timing compared to the animation. Also the Scope, like with some of the 5.56 Assault Rifles, may have a strange jiggle early on after using Aim Mode. These seem to be the only guns that really have that early Aim Jitter, that is bad enough to annoy me at least, as it goes away after a few seconds.
Overall, the Kotenok and S21 don't make much sense as implemented currently in Gen Zero. S21 doesn't act like a 6-12x plus Rifle, period. Kotenok really is best used as a short-med range semi-auto carbine, which is a limited but workable compromise. But the AG-4 with a 1-4x or 4-8x scop, even the AI-76 with just a RED DOT 2x Scope overall are more effective in AIM MODE, have larger magazines, tend to critical hit more because they are more accurate and have no major recoil issues, and fire faster. Both of those Assault Rifles also have possible Extended Magazines, where I'm not sure the Kotenok or S21 have any.
Lastly, S21 and Kotenok, I think but am not sure, do not have any Experimental 6 Crown Variant, where the AG-4 does, AI-76 possibly does, the Vintovka probably doesn't have one but hits a lot harder than S21 or Kotenok per shot.
The result is that if you are using a SCOPED RIFLE, the Vintovka is your cheap ammo FIRST STRIKE WEAPON with excellent range and flat trajectory. The Meusser .273 and the Algudstudstare .270 have similar better range and good accuracy. However, all rifles at extended range are sometimes iffy, even perhaps the 50 cal Pz-90. But the 50 cal has good 10-18 round magazine and hits a lot harder against Heavy Targets and has an Experimental 6 Crown Variant available.
That's the long version of an answer to your later question in the original post. Maybe I'll edit this later to try and get this shorter, was trying to get my thoughts down.
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RECOIL AIMING DOWN SCOPES or USING SEMI-AUTO IS WORSE THAN IN AUTO:
I actually was tempted to make a bug report complaint to the Devs about how they have messed up quite a few weapons in the last 2-3 updates, mostly for DLC Weapons. Recoil is the main issue and it is clear when you use any scope and mostly if you use semi-automatic. For example, it is easier to even use the COM-10 on Automatic and control the recoil than on single-fire because the recoil is different on each. That's ridiculous. The S21, Kotenok, also the N16 and less so the AG-5 have this recoil issue and it is mostly in single-fire mode or when aiming down a scope.
YES, I read that it was a mistake in the stats view of the two weapons and has nothing to do with how weak either are even after the buff update.
AI will spot you with pinpoint accuracy after the first shot fired. The S21 could be otherwise
a decent silenced midrange sniper with shock ammo. But the game doesnt give you that
option.
Imho the combination of 5*AI76 and PM71 gets you covered pretty nicely from close quarters up to midrange. Both are rather precise when shooting bursts and imho artificial
limited because only dotscopes can be mounted.
Silencers are not useless, you have got to destroy the machine within a very quick window if not with the first shot. In other words, the machine you hit with the first shot will call out to near by machines the direction it was hit from if you wait to long for a second round hit.
limited to the red dot scopes on a AI76 is why I use the 6* AG4. Not only can you use a 4X8 scope but can use attachments to enhance the scope view for different conditions. Makes for a better GP weapon. Then 3 different barrel attachments even makes the AG4 more versatile as a GP weapon. But none of the DLC rifles can take the place of the base game rifles.
The S21, Kotenok, Vintovka, and AI-76 currently do not have Experimental variants, but the AG4 does.
I find it very weird to operate GZ's Designated Marksman Rifles (DMRs), the S21 and Kotenok. I believe there are a few historical inaccuracies with both of these weapons, and I don't see any real purpose for them, other than perhaps looking cosmetically appealing to some. But then again, isn't that the case for most of these DLC weapon packs?
The SVD (real-life counterpart to the Kotenok) is normally chambered in 7.62x54 ammo (GZ uses the default 7.62x51 NATO) and typically comes with a PSO-1 4x24 scope. The highest magnification power the Kotenok takes is a 4x8 scope. And the recoil isn't the best in the world with it. Sure, both weapons are serviceable with iron sights (I have not operated a real-life SVD before, I just looked this up), but when I use the Kotenok with iron sights, I find it quite difficult to land consistent shots against fast-moving targets at long range, something that I can easily do with an AG4 or Kpist (the latter of which I don't think is even designed for long-range targets
But at least I am able to destroy something at a fair distance with what the Kotenok has already, with enough time and patience. The S21 (based on the real-life M21) is abysmal at best when shooting from a distance. That thing does not deserve an 8x16 scope. The M21 typically uses a 3x9 scope, so I don't think that's meant to replace a M82/PVG. I deliberately use iron sights because the recoil with scopes is that bad, and even then I'm not getting half the damage output I expect from something like this. Its ammo is the historically accurate 7.62x51, but it feels like I'm firing .32 ACP ammo out of a slow-firing handgun.
If the devs were to add anything for GZ's DMRs (not that they necessarily should), I think it would make some degree of sense to let the Kotenok take 6x12 scopes (all the while allowing the effective range to increase), and the S21 take 4x8 scopes (to try to increase the accuracy).
Essentially, like you said @DedZedNub, there is no real purpose for the Kotenok or S21. An AG4 is a far superior choice in every way. Plus it has both semi-auto and full-auto capabilities, as well as an Experimental variant that literally shoots FIRE. What more can you really ask for?
But hey, at least the Kotenok and S21 have extended magazines (I think I have 4c versions of each)! Oh, wait, so does the AG4...hmm...
You can do that with doggies but no chance in hell with Lynxes or higher tier Hunters.
What i meant was that the AI76 is actually precise enough to be even used as a sniper especially in three shot burst mode with shock ammo,but the game wont let you mount anything other than a dot scope. Probably for the reason that it would make look the
exp. AG4 rather weak. Which it is in comparison. Certainly its a individual choice but the
AI76 handled well is by a good margin the more effective close range weapon.
And then there is the PM-71. Big damage + big mag. Usable up to midrange pretty precisly
and able to kill any enemy on the battlefield without the danger to electricute yourself in
close quarters. With shock its a effing devastating weapon that wipes out entire platoons
of smaller enemies in seconds and hardly a tank,harvester or firebird will survive a mag
dumped in it.
Well,both weapons use the most common ammo in the game,so you can go out "light"
without a big cache of ammo in your backpack,because you will find plenty of ammo on
the way.
-- You can shoot at Runners, Hunters, and even Higher Enemies, even hit them, and they will lose track of you, PROVIDED YOU FIND COVER AND CROUCH BEHIND IT (PRONE IS BETTER, but I consider Prone overkill and it slows you down and takes away most of your immediate visual situational awareness).
(NOTE: You have an INFRARED SIGNATURE. Any tech you have, the Machines have, in fact you got most of the parts off of them. They can pick up sounds, uv, and so on. Not every one of them, but it is part of many swarms. Stop forgetting what you are up against. Start pretending you are really in the Machine Apocalypse.)
-- What you really mean is that as SniperGirl communicated:
a) Your General Direction and the fact that a hostile hit an Enemy is announced to the others nearby.
b) They will begin to hunt for you and if you are spotted they will fire upon you even if you take cover, with at least convering suppressive fire.
c) Tanks are much more persistent. Harvesters are a mixed bag, sometimes persistent, but often they don't care until they have taken lots of total damage. They also let others nearby do the initial work, and lose interest over time.
-- If you quickly find cover, backing up really helps or moving unseen to another location, as they only are looking for the initial firing location. Sensors are less effective at greater range. Surprising concept -- not.
-- Since Gen Zero's AI is swarm based and not stupid, they still tend to investigate the local area, so if you just stay there, and time isn't too long to reach you, they will begin to search the area, see you, and again announce where you are, and try to kill you. That's not STEALTH FEATURE FAILING, that is you failing to be realistic about stealth. That's a GEN ZERO PLUS FOR ITS AI.
-- Long Distance Sniper Shots at the limit will AT STANDARD SKIRMISH DIFFICULTY often lead to about half of all attempts breaking your stealth. But if you fire again at the same announced group, they will be more persistent -- wow just like real life or real machines would, after all GAMING STEALTH if not realistic in most games, at all. Something does damage to one of theirs, time doesn't matter, they want to know what did it and take it out.
-- GOING PRONE AND TAKING NEW COVER AND MOVING BACK, like in some very few stealth games, IS MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN CROUCHING.
-- I have successfully fired at tanks and lost them after that. It isn't easy, but it is even possible from medium range. But it takes much longer for them to lose interest, USUALLY. Breaking Line of Sight with physical objects that fully hide you, such as boulders and buildings really, Really, REALLY helps early in the pursuit. Trees mostly work, but often a small sliver of you is not protected, mostly because your center when holding a gun is not modeled to be center of your view, it is slightly different (that's on purpose, you bulge more I believe it is on the side holding the weapon)
-- Harvesters also, but they are less likely to come and get you, it isn't their job. But if you attack an Apocalypse Harvester who is alone, god help you, in general.
-- Stealth is designed to be a first strike skill, and then take cover and move away from the suspected first strike area you attacked from. Machines aren't supposed to be that moronic. They don't tire, they don't care how long something takes, they only care to satisfy their objectives. If they have another objective, then your attack may not be that imnportant, and so on.
-- MAIN ISSUE THAT MOST PLAYERS HATE ABOUT STEALTH -- is that when Enemies are in Combat with even Russian Robots, or vice-versa, they seem to notice you and target you even though you did nothing. I see this as them going on active ping instead of passive ping. That is you shook the hive, now they go full tilt, all sensors are on, everybody is on full alert, and if they have other means (like a Secret Satellite or the like) it is turned on as well. Players hate that because they see it as unfair compared to other games. Why aren't the current combatants the main priority? Why doesn't the fog of war help me? Well because the fog of war barely matters when the hive has all sensors on maximum. And machines don't worry about friend or foe (ever notice how many get killed by friendly fire), they just care about taking a target down, if they just have a target of opportunity and they think it is a good call, they take it on, changing priorities based on whatever their weird AI is thinking.
TLDR -- Stealth works, but you have to know how it works. It is not dissimilar to how it worked in , say, the old Deus Ex original game of the series.
Prone is better than crouch. Retreat and move off the trajectory of the bullet traced back to you. Get Buildings and other line of sight between you. That makes them lose track of you. The more time between your initial attack the higher your chance that they decide they can't find you and return to another priority. If they see you again, you are going to have a tougher time getting them to stop pursuit.
Makes complete sense to me. More games should do this.
Most game implementations of Stealth have always been too easy to scam as a player. They are effectively broken if you decide to cheat the system. Not as easy in Gen Zero, but can be done.
Well Said.