[Feedback] Class mechanics

[無心]

First, great job on the game. This is a really solid FFT-like RPG, with some things to iron out.

Obviously this will contain spoilers so count yourself warned.

Generally, class progression needs work. Currently there's not a lot of incentive for sticking to a class, nor does changing classes often feel good. Here's some feedback from a fan, will add more if I think of it.

Class Progression

Needs to be smoother in general. Focus on the archetypes:

• Warrior (frontline fighter)
  
• Rogue/Ranger (mobile flanker)
  
• Mage (offensive caster)
  
• Healer (supportive caster)

Examples:

• Gunner [Ranger 4, Merc 4, Knight 4] to [Ranger 4, Merc 4, Scoundrel 6]
  -Knight? Really? Scoundrel 6 is the minimum for its signature skill Sneak Attack.
  
  
• Druid [Wizard 5, Mender 3, Alchemystic 3] to [Wizard 5, Mender 5]
  -Alchemystic is a really specialized support class that no Mage wants to go into. At this point the Wizard often needs Mana Font (Mender 4) to sustain his mana-hungry spells.
  
  
• Alchemystic [Wizard 4] to [Mender 5]
  -Why does the buffer/support class require Wizard 4?
  
  
• Plague Doctor [Mender 4] to [Alchemystic 5]
  -This progression makes more sense; Mender > Alche > Plague Doc. Heal > Buff > Debuff. Not to mention Plague Doc is a really strong class that can equip Heavy Armor.

Allow secondary class weapons

• Nobody wants to force their melee characters equip a staff just to unlock a class.

Stats

Job Mastery bonus

• Needs to be significantly more rewarding. ATM, it's not even comparable to a single level on your character. Either way more stats, or maybe permanent abilities (active and passive) that don't require skill slots.

Stats progression revamp

• Characters gain fixed stats when leveling (e.g. +3 to ATK/DEF/MND/RES).
  
• Characters gain bonus, variable stats when leveling their classes (e.g. Wizards gain more MND/RES, Knight more DEF).

MP recovery

• From 10 to "4 + 10% of maximum MP" per turn. Better scaling - pointless to have large but empty MP pool.

Abilities

• Abilities like No Flank and Evade Magic is "anti-tactics" and not fun.
  
• No Flank + Evade Magic is just broken.

Suggestions

• Make No Flank effective from sides only.
  
• Evade Magic changed to Resist Magic (blocking ~50% of damage)

[Conan The Librarian]

Skull Town-

Most of the topics you have brought up have been discussed in the past, so I will summarize the information regarding them:

Regarding class progression, they are as they are for two main reasons:

• To gate particularly potent abilities so that players don't acquire them "too quickly".
  
  
• To help incentivize checking out the various classes.

With the sort of changes you're proposing, it would make getting [Dual Wield] and [Doublecast] a little bit easier, which is not what 6 Eyes is interested in doing. Similarly, you're also proposing gating the Plague Doctor a little further back, which again, 6 Eyes quite purposefully made that one an easily-unlocked class.

Also, don't necessarily think of the classes from a perspective of "healer to buffer" or whatever, but in terms of "is this a magic / attack / or hybrid class?" (with the druid etc that you mentioned) it goes from mage to mage to mage is the general idea. Just because they'll have different functions (damage / healing / utility etc) doesn't stop them from being related to each other because they use similar stats (Magic).

As for the "gain equipment proficiency from secondary class", that would create some issues.

• First, one of the main distinguishments between the various classes is what equipment they can use. Making this "more open" would go directly against this core design choice.
  
  
• Second, it would create bad incentive decisions for the players in terms of "what I should choose as my secondary class". How things are currently, a secondary class has zero effect on anything save for "this is the skillset of active skills which I want to use alongside my main class". This allows freedom to choose which skillset you want with no strings attached. Theoretically, if equipment proficiency was tied to secondary class as well, they people would have the sticky situation of "well I want this skillset, but not this equipment set", and then have to choose between which aspect they cared more about (in the decision of "which secondary class").

Essentially no, 6 Eyes is quite purposefully keeping "other aspects" away from secondary class choice so people are free to choose those based on what skills they want instead of having to weigh multiple factors.

For Class Mastery Bonuses, these were not created so people would "want to master classes so they can obtain tons of great stats", but were implemented so that "there is a small reward for mastering classes. So, they are purposefully small, and increasing them is not in 6 Eyes' plans at this moment. Similarly, adding in something like "permanently active passives" or "extra special abilities (not tied to having a class equipped)" (etc) would be super strong and mess with game balance in general.

Regarding your stat change idea--I mean, that's very different from what they have now, since (if I'm understanding you correctly) you'd therefore be tying AP gains (AP to buy the skills to "level" in the various classes" to stat gains, which would really muddy the system up. Things are designed to revolve around "skills -- AP" and "stats -- exp". By tying it to both, things would have to be significantly reworked, which again, 6 Eyes currently has no plans to rework the stats system on the whole.

Regarding mana regen system: 6 Eyes had considered such a thing in very early versions of their game, however, their bottom line conclusion was that they couldn't "get it in the right place" to be good, hence, they went with the current system of a flat 10 per turn.

Regarding those ability comments: In design, there is line between "is this a good combo?" and "is this overpowered?" Specifically on the example you gave, 6 Eyes merely considers that to be "a good combo". While [Evade Magic] and [No Flank] may be good, they take up valuable slots (counter slot and a passive slot), meaning you don't take other things instead. I wouldn't consider them "anti-tactics", but instead, change up what kind of tactics you (or the AI) has to use to counter such a thing. While you can't flank, whatever, that's a damage bonus which is missing, but damage can still be done. With [Evade Magic], other skills / attacks / "special type" abilities can still be used. Yes, it can make a sturdy hero, but not unkillable or something.

So, glad you've been enjoying the game, and thanks for taking the time to record some of your thoughts.

[無心]

Your response is very unfortunate. It seems obvious to me from my feedback and, as you mention, many others that progressing through classes can be better. Yet the other option to stick with the current class would only give a "small reward".

From my perspective it is simple. I wish for my Scoundrel to stay and progress as a "Rogue style" mobile/ranged character. If 6 Eyes wishes to "incentivize checking out various classes" by forcing my Scoundrel to be a Knight at some point (which is a basic class I would already have another character on), that's just ridiculous. Similar to my example of the Druid/Alchemystic - I want my Wizard to progress as an offensive spell caster. But now I'm forced to artificially progress through a class specializing in support spells (by grinding AP). The support spells might use the same stats (magic), but I don't even bother casting them since I need those offensive spells in battle. Don't get me wrong - I'm cool with encouraging use of various classes, but confused at the fact that they don't even cover similar roles in battle.

With 4 movement points, option to equip Staff/Rod/Mace, Heavy Armor, natural resistances, and a solid skill set, the Plague Doctor is easily an endgame class that you can unlock early game (Mender 4?....). I also don't think the changes I'm proposing would make [Dual Wield] or [Double Cast] significantly easier. Those abilities require fully going through the skill trees of endgame classes, and the abilities themselves cost a lot of AP. However, these are simply examples of smoother class progression. 6 Eyes can always increase or add other (relevant!) class requirements should they think some classes should be harder to unlock.

No Flank strongly discourages (good) positioning and the Scoundrel playstyle, which in my opinion is a huge element in a tactics game. Evade Magic pretty much eliminates a key damage weakness of frontline, low RES fighters. While you can hamper and slowly wear them down with special skills or de-buffs, the AI can also simply out-heal or AoE dispel all your de-buffs.

With stat progression though, I agree it's an idea that's difficult to design and implement.

Appreciate your detailed reply, it has set my expectation and hope for the developers and this game.

[Lasci]

I think threads like this are quite good for providing feedback, especially when they're as thoughtful and well organized as this one. But I'm always baffled by the sense of entitlement people have about the systems in a game that has such a small team yet so clearly stands above its predecessors (or even contemporaries) in terms of UI, accessibility, and overall fun.

I agree that there is some awkwardness in the requirements to unlock certain classes. Knight 4 for Gunner is perhaps a bit unintuitive, I will give you that. My perspective is that the purpose of the class requirements is often to gate keep the most powerful passives, counters, and abilities while keeping within a (relatively loose) 'theme' -- fighters, rogues, mages, hybrids. I can't speak entirely to 6E's design choices, but the decision to present different options to players while they naturally progress through the classes (rather than have them get stuck in an "archetype") seems like a very intentional aspect of the class tree. If you want to play a damage dealing mage or a specialized healer, you can stick a character in Wizard or Mender respectively and never really be upset with their performance unless you get on higher difficulties.

Because of the nature of stat growths (your stats don't change as you swap classes) and secondary skills (they aren't weaker as a secondary than they are as a primary), you don't lose any power from Wizard or Mender as you progress towards classes with different playstyles. You can have an Alchemystic or a Plague Doctor that performs just as well as your Wizard or Mender and never touch the more "advanced" classes' abilities.

Compared this to FFT, where the progression was (I guess) more "natural" but most if not all classes, particularly in the physical tree, were either underpowered, criminally boring, had awful kits, or had only one ability worth using. Archer? Knight? Come on. Even the Scoundrel, with all its borderline useless, filler Steal abilities feels directly better and more interesting than its Thief equivalent.

I can't do anything but agree to disagree about class progression, but I think perspective is important about what you're getting (interesting, diverse, unique classes) versus what you're losing (occasionally awkward progression). I can't help but feel you want the class progression to lead you on a path towards the best builds in the game (making abilities like Mana Font and Sneak attack "necessary"), which I just have to respectfully hard disagree with as a design choice.



Addressing a few of your other concerns with my perspective:

-- Gunner is handily one of the best character classes in the game, especially on higher difficulties, and leads to the jack of all trades, master of dual wielding Assassin. Requiring a larger time investment in more advanced classes seems like a reasonable ask here, even if we both agree that Knight is a weird requirement.

-- Druid is the most diverse spellcasting class in the game with the best natural passives, great growths, excellent equipment access to the only AoE buff remover in Dispel, an extremely potent defensive utility spell in Total Shield, and the best spellcasting passive in the game outside of secret classes. Requiring a few ranks in Alchemystic as a representation of the class's utility doesn't seem unreasonable rather than, say, upping the requirement on Mender to unlock the "necessary" Mana Font. Double Cast isn't always meant to be used with high MP spells when you first unlock the class; it's meant to spread out Total Shield, or toss down Panacea II before casting Heal I, or doing any number of a variety of things with low MP value at different targets. If you want Mana Font, you should, imo, have to work for that build rather than have it handed to you.

-- Alchemystic has access to Mass Haste and Mystic Shield, which are arguably the best utility spell and best counter in the game. If you don't want to use the kit, equip Wizard as a secondary and spend the ~3 battles to unlock the skills necessary to grab Wizard.

-- Plague Doctor is a bit lackluster as a class in general and I don't think it needs deeper requirements or that it has a "late game" ready kit. I think you're vastly overstating the usefulness of its strong equipment access.

-- Secondary class equipment is a bit much, but I could see daggers being accessible to every class. Still, daggers are actually quite good as weapons and I can "feel" the pain here when unlocking stuff like Duelist or Warmage.

-- Job Mastery bonuses are... okay. I don't think they're necessary and are meant to be a nice bonus. It's clear that the best ones give you crit, evasion, or resistances, and the ones that don't are "meh," for sure, but I wouldn't want them to be more impactful.

-- The stats progression revamp that you're proposing sounds like a lateral move rather than an upward one. I don't think stat growth is an issue, let alone a problem that needs to be "fixed" and this sounds awfully picky and dismissive of the QC/testing work that went into the games systems.

-- MP recovery is similarly a topic that has been discussed far and wide throughout the game's lifespan. I haven't been around as long as others to comment on how this functions in Early Access, but this proposal is another rather presumptuous lateral move that wouldn't necessarily improve the gameplay. You can change the amount of MP gained per turn in the GameOptions file if you're adamant about playing the game that way, however.

-- No Flank + Evade Magic is a good combination, but it's certainly not game breaking unless you equip it to all of your characters, and at that point you're probably just going for cheese. Otherwise, the enemy just ignores that character for a good amount of time or badgers them with debuffs and skills. On higher difficulties, this doesn't work half as well as you think it might. Like Conan said -- good combination, not necessarily overpowered, though.


Again, oftentimes these discussions come down to agreeing to disagree -- and that's fine. I just wanted to provide my perspective about the game's balance in order to maybe help temper yours. 6E is an awfully small team that managed to get a lot of Fell Seal's systems right in ways that most AAA developers have failed to for decades.

[Dorok]

The design choose focus on constantly building a character, and along this build characters will change their role. It's a design focus on a long open but complex building, it's neither a classic class system nor a classic skills system.

In my opinion the design choose stick to this and it's hardly bad, even if it could be different:
- There isn't a single class that is the continuation of another class.
- You'll spend most of the play by having a main class that is selected as your secondary class.
- To reach some key abilities passive or counter you'll need have a character changing roles multiple times.
- A class rarely fulfill more than one role, then it's better think the constant build evolution with a double role point of view.
- Straight forward classes paths chains are pointless simplification/streamlining for such system.

I won't deny that it's difficult to adapt, and sometimes it's a bit frustrating, but make it too streamlined won't help.

At very high difficulties it's certainly hard to manage this and an optimizing of attributes, but high difficulties are about being difficult.

Lasci:
The problem with your arguing is it is hardly realistic because it is based on main class selection when along a play you'll constantly change it, at least until rather late. In my opinion the sooner a player realize it, the better he will adapt well to it.