Some Thoughts on Specific Unique Characters and Classes.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Before I get into it, here's a requisite Spoiler Warning for the thread in advance. This by nature requires spoilers, and I don't want to deal with having to use a bunch of spoiler tags or weirdly framed sentences. So, anyone who'd be reading this but for some reason also be concerned with Spoilers, now's your time to go.

This concerns two specific special characters, as well as two Crest Classes - Yates, Katja, Princess, and, by technicality, Lich. Mainly the first three, though.

After completing the main story on my Max All Settings, I decided to put some work into exploring the unique units and Crest Classes. I didn't use them initially due to Yates and Katja severely lacking in AP and the Crest Classes being better suited to units not on my mainline roster. However, after fixing the AP issues with some intense AP grinding, I've found I still can't find myself enjoying Yates and Katja, nor the Princess class. It's not a matter of power - their power levels are quite high, with Princess being the best in the game - but a flaw in their conception.

That flaw is the manner in which they recycle certain Abilities. I've nothing against recycling in principle - and some of the recycling on them is effective and understandable. It comes down to a manner of curation. Using Katja as an example - Thrown Dagger, Shakedown, Know Weakness II being recycled works well. She can't access Werewolf or Vampire, and they fit intuitively with her class flavor and the Net, Garrote, Impetus, and Counter: Bleed Abilities she has unique access to. The ones I don't think work, however, are Sneak Attack, Blind Powder, and Collect Bounty. Anyone who read my Classes Thread may see where this is going. I use Katja as the example as she also comes with a near-mastered Assassin class because it puts my issue here in stark focus - it doesn't feel nice when characters recycle Abilities from generic classes because it both downplays the value of leveling in those classes and hurts the player's ability to customize their units. It creates a real feel-bad, where, for example, it's easy to feel "punished" for playing Katja the way Fell Seal seemingly wants the player to use her - as a Bounty Hunter / Assassin, because of that overlap. When recycling between story classes, Crest Classes, and monster classes, this isn't an issue, since that removes the overlap issues, and allows for those more niche jobs to have cool abilities but also not consume large amounts of design space.

Using Katja again, Abilities like Rakkerjak's Rusty Stab or Vangal's Snapback are great recycling candidates that fit Katja's flavor without having this issue. Blind Powder could easily just be the same skill but with a new status - Slow, DEF DOWN, maybe DEF DOWN + RES DOWN, even. Collect Bounty could be adapted into a very similar ability - Collect Prey, maybe, someone else can shop the name - dealing 0.6x damage but working on both Humans and Monsters. Etc.

Yates and Princess have the same issue, and even with the same class - Mender. (Princess also snags Quicken from Gambler, though.) In both cases, it feels doubly bad compared to Katja, even. Yates has to level Mender to hit Mana Font and unlock a lot of the magic tree, and Princess explicitly requires Mender - and yet their own classes are, in part, exercises in re-leveling Mender and unlocking Spells they already have. I think a similar fix to what I proposed to Katja could work out here - Spells like Pektite's Focus Fire, some of the Niwot, Daodrenner, or perhaps even Ercinee Spells, the Vassal's Psyhie, etc., could be recycled to these classes, re-flavored as-needed. Some of the overlapping Spells could also be made into more advanced versions in the way of Princess' Mass Heal II. Perhaps Mass Panacea I / Mass Panacea II are options? Revive already has Revive II, and I don't think Heal II or Quicken have any more upward space to claim, though.

Yates, however, has a secondary issue - his unique Passives. Legendary Healer I "don't like" in that it makes building Yates as a character a lot more narrow, but it's flavorful, useful, and not the one I really want to focus on. The one I'm instead looking at, is Pain Points. It's a re-skin of Execute, which would be fine... but Kyrie also has Execute on her unique Marked class. It ends up making both Yates and Kyrie feel less special, despite there being plenty of other unique Passives Yates could utilize. I'm not saying Yates needs Blood Magic, Doublecast II, or Arcane Engine... but something unique from Kyrie that helps his versatility in other classes would be nice. I understand why Yates has Pain Points from both a flavor and mechanical perspective, but it feels like he was given it in a vacuum without considering how it relates him to other story-characters.

Finally, there's Lich. As said at the start, it's only here on technicality, since it has Darkstorm, but that's such an easy Spell to replace with any number of other relevant Spells. Or, perhaps, Darkstorm and Holystorm could become unique to Princess and Lich if issues with Sorcerer I brought up in my Classes thread are decided to be worth addressing?

The TL;DR here is that I'd like the Special Classes to actually feel Special to Level in. Some of them feel great - Vessel, Vampire, Werewolf, even Lich, all of Bzaro, Kyrie, etc. It's what makes the ones that don't maintain that feeling stand out all the more, in a bad way. Putting more curation on where the Abilities that are chosen for re-use on these classes come from would be a straightforward way of doing that without needing to make them bite into unnecessary design space.

[Conan The Librarian]

Raven of Razgriz-

Some notes on your comments. (Preface: like most of my comments in your recent threads, these are just notes, not "me saying you're wrong")

• One of the main considerations when it comes to the unique story classes is about general balance. They should be good / powerful / worth using, but there are limits.
  
  
• Something which will help a decent number of your concerns is that on 6 Eyes' "To-Do list" includes adjusting the amount of starting AP which new story heroes join your party with. The details of how this will work have not been released as of yet, but it should hopefully make acquiring and using newly-joined story heroes feel a little better.
  
  
• As for Yates' passives, on one hand I see what you mean, but on the other hand, I don't have an issue with those passives, as they are choices. In a given encounter, if I feel that I'll need the healing, I'll take his healing passive; if I feel that I want him to focus more on damaging, then I'll take the Execute passive. The beauty of Yates (imo) is his flexibility in damaging and healing. I can have him set to Anatomist as a secondary class and have "most of what I want / need" and have him learn whatever I'm aiming for at that time. Since the only regular class which gets Execute is the Vampire, being a badge class, that means that story heroes (save for Yates and Kyrie) can't get that passive. So, I'm ok with Yates having a very powerful offensive passive like that and don't feel that it makes it feel "not as unique", because it is still a "semi-limited" passive. [Consider something like "Execute on Magical user (Yates) and Execute on Attack user Kyrie] Yes, I understand that Vampire is one of the easier classes to obtain (Crafting-wise) but part of the idea is that Yates and Kyrie can obtain Execute a bit sooner than others.

So as always, thanks for jottin' down notes for 6 Eyes' consideration.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Some notes on your comments. (Preface: like most of my comments in your recent threads, these are just notes, not "me saying you're wrong")

I appreciate it, but I feel like you missed the thrust of what I was getting at.

The AP issue only made me not use them initially. I'm aware 6-Eyes is going to address that because it was a conversation with me that lead to that. I'm talking about the end-result of playing with the classes after fixing it on my own end via some grinding. It's also not a matter of their performance - I did also say that they're among the stronger classes in the game. Yates and Princess are particularly so. It's all about how these classes feel, to build with and level in.

This is why I chose Katja as my example to my point - she already has the AP in Assassin, and starts with (if memory serves) both Blind Powder and Collect Bounty learned. It doesn't change the fact that having that specific overlap (on top of having arguably the strongest skill from Scoundrel) reduces the value of specific skillsets for Katja, making her less interesting to craft with if a player wants to utilize her unique Bounty Hunter skillset.

It's also not that Yates or Kyrie get Execute "early", or that Execute isn't "special enough". I praised Katja's Know Weakness II, which is from Werewolf - the most easily accessed class. Heck, I'm pretty much drowning in Lunar Crests, personally. I found it detracted from how I valued Yates as a unique character because it was shared with another unique character in Kyrie. I never said they both needed to change, nor did I say Execute, at any point, is a bad Passive. The fact that both Yates and Kyrie have it makes them feel less special because they both have it. I feel like, on some level, this is already understood, because the fact Yates recycles Execute is obfuscated by re-flavoring it as Pain Points, essentially trying to hide the fact it was re-used.

It's why I called the issue a matter of curation.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Some notes on your comments. (Preface: like most of my comments in your recent threads, these are just notes, not "me saying you're wrong")

I appreciate it, but I feel like you missed the thrust of what I was getting at.

Sorry, for sake of brevity on my own part and since it's a design decision, I was choosing not to go into detail regarding the main "what to do with these classes", and saving that for 6 Eyes' contemplation. Hence why it's just notes on some aspects of your post.

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

It's also not that Yates or Kyrie get Execute "early", or that Execute isn't "special enough". I praised Katja's Know Weakness II, which is from Werewolf - the most easily accessed class. I'm pretty much drowning in Lunar Crests, personally. I found it detracted from how I valued Yates as a unique character because it was shared with another unique character, Kyrie. I never said they both needed to change, nor did I say Execute, at any point, is a bad Passive. The fact that both Yates and Kyrie have it makes them feel less special because they both have it. I feel like, on some level, this is already understood, because the fact Yates recycles Execute is obfuscated by re-flavoring it as Pain Points, essentially trying to hide the fact it was re-used.

Aye, I certainly didn't get the impression you were saying Execute was bad, I was just saying that I personally think its presence on those two characters is fine and doesn't detract from their uniqueness. As for [Pain Points], to be fair, it's not as much as a "trying to hide it", but moreso "This is the passive that 6 Eyes wanted for this character, and flavor-wise giving it a different name made more sense".

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

The AP issue only made me not use them initially. I'm aware 6-Eyes is going to address that because it was a conversation with me that lead to that.

Ah, haha, I knew it came up somewhere recently, but couldn't recall which thread.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Sorry, for sake of brevity on my own part and since it's a design decision, I was choosing not to go into detail regarding the main "what to do with these classes", and saving that for 6 Eyes' contemplation. Hence why it's just notes on some aspects of your post.

S'algood. Just had me worried I wasn't properly clear about my issue. :)

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

Aye, I certainly didn't get the impression you were saying Execute was bad, I was just saying that I personally think its presence on those two characters is fine and doesn't detract from their uniqueness.

Fair. I suppose that's an agree-to-disagree moment. It's just something I remember making particular note of when I first recruited him, and it did end up factoring into my decision to ultimately bench him instead of biting the bullet and grinding the AP. It does certainly help offset Legendary Healer's narrowness in some ways, though, which is why I also floated the idea that perhaps Kyrie could do with a different Passive, instead. Her moves already do great damage, after all, on top of her unique Avenger Passive, which I'm sure pulls a lot of weight on non-Permadeath settings.

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

Ah, haha, I knew it came up somewhere recently, but couldn't recall which thread.

It turned into a long tangent in Bug Reports, so that's probably why, heh.

[6 Eyes Studio]

@RavenOfRazgriz:

Hey :)

Again, an interesting read for sure!
I have a lot of notes about some class tweaks and sprucing up the story characters at the same time sounds like a fine plan.

I think I like a lot of the changes you propose are quite solid (suggestions to Katja's abilities are a good example, where I think they would be a net improvement overall).

We'll see how much of this we end up changing, as I don't fully agree with you that having a cross-over between basic classes and story classes is as dramatic as you make it sound ;)

For example, having Yates have access to Heal 1 is fine to me, even though the spell is already on the Mender, Yates' kit as a whole has a very different feel to it and it works fine imo. Could Heal 1 be replaced with a more powerful version of it? Perhaps, but I'm not sure the powercreep is necessary or good.

That being, I understand what you mean and I certainly don't disagree with the sentiment, just maybe its magnitude. :)

Thanks a bunch again, as I think these comments will help us make the game yet that much better :)

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

We'll see how much of this we end up changing, as I don't fully agree with you that having a cross-over between basic classes and story classes is as dramatic as you make it sound ;)

It's not dramatic, like I said to Conan, it's more a matter of feel and wanting the leveling of the classes to feel rewarding.

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

For example, having Yates have access to Heal 1 is fine to me, even though the spell is already on the Mender, Yates' kit as a whole has a very different feel to it and it works fine imo.

It does. I think the question that I'd say is most worth considering is "does this overlap make it feel like a waste to also equip Mender?" In the case of Yates and Princess, I'd say yes. When in this situation, I think both "Does this class feel unique?" and "Does this class still combine well with the class it borrows from?" are questions that need to be answered with "Yes", in situations where the borrow-er and borrow-ee can be combined. Although, my ultimate preference will always be that they never be so, but I suppose that may be where we differ.

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

Could Heal 1 be replaced with a more powerful version of it? Perhaps, but I'm not sure the powercreep is necessary or good.

I'm not saying they should be more powerful, necessarily, that was merely one example. Something else that could be done, as another example, is a re-interpretation of the Plague Doctor's Recovery Spell, except healing different status effects. This would be a simple, low-power spell that doesn't take a lot of design space but also doesn't directly hinder the value of any particular secondary skillsets on Yates and/or Princess.

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

That being, I understand what you mean and I certainly don't disagree with the sentiment, just maybe its magnitude. :)

Glad to hear. :)

I've read your sentiments before about re-using abilities as a whole and don't disagree with them, I just feel that the re-using should come from places where there's more value to it.

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

Thanks a bunch again, as I think these comments will help us make the game yet that much better :)

That's the goal. :)

[pjlanzino]

in just my opintion, i think it makes sense that yates, and a druid, and a mender and a templar can heal and to diff power levels. i love this game so much i dreamt about it last night :). my mind wandering onto creating different 'feels' i thought about spell effects and names. like, a menders heal rainbow sparkles and a druid's leaves floating up around the healed. a druids poison could be a spider coming down onto char while anothers could be thrown bottle making a cloud.... you get the idea. popped into my head and wanted to share, and i know small team doing an amazing job. future, sequel or mods though

[6 Eyes Studio]

Glad to hear you're liking the game and thanks for the ideas as well!
We'll see where the next few months take us. We have a LOT of stuff we still want to add and improve, that's for sure.

[mprater8378]

In terms of Yates, maybe Panacea II & Heal I could be combined/improved. Maybe Heal .75x and remove all debuffs increasing heal potency per debuff removed. That way it differentiates both Heal I & Panacea II from the Mender skill tree, it combines two of Yates' slots into one, it doesn't nullify Plague Dr's recovery, it makes the spell useful even if no debuffs are applied, and it's relatively unique. Additionally, maybe Heal II could be Heal + II.