Are monster worth training?

[Kasa]

In FFT some monsters where interesting but usally sub optimal soldiers, currently I'm running with 3 of my troops being Vampire/WarMage duel wielding guns and my MC's running Gunner/WarMage duel wielding guns.
I'm around lvl 30 - 40 about to hit the final temple with each of my troops hitting for around 100 - 250 dmg per unit.
Do monster offer anything that would put them on par with that, or are they just something fun to goof around with like FFT?

[Yian Yan]

The consistency and safety of a dual wielding gunner/warmage is hard to match with much of anything but several monsters offer significant damage and durability. Pektites are an early game example that can hit very hard, well before you get a fully kitted Gunner/Warmage (with dual wield).

[Kasa]

Currently running my units with 2 silver guns, ninja garb and 3 wizard gloves.

[Realhollow]

Nope they are pointless to a fault there is one thats not too bad the flying bug thing you can get be4 the 2nd temple but thats about it

[Kasa]

Unfortunate

[Soul4hdwn]

Originally posted by Kasa:

Unfortunate

that was a joke... most monsters don't come close to serious builds yes, but there is some strong combos from monsters too. additionally they get some passives and skills humans can't and more. certain monsters' stats are sort of garbage sadly but some others just blow humans away.

its easy to mitigate a jelly's magic weakness and have its physical laugh at the AI while it deals its high magic damage.
then monsters have easier global heal than beastmasters (more expensive but, they can get TWO mana fonts)
you can make a hilarious kamakazi phoenix dealing 4x dmg to foes next to them. (thorned)
you can get a bee that AoE default attacks that also heal allies at a range. (drake+silvan)

[Conan The Librarian]

Orrr, you could take the opinions of people who have quite successfully used monsters, such as these:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/2575445815935951286/#c2575445815936187501

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/2575445628468378108/#c2575445628468822948

Originally posted by Mechalibur:

Speedy Harvester has Cleave and Quicken :P Hell, Speedy is the ultimate action economy boost giving you 33% more turns passively with Auto Haste and a bonus turn with Initiative.

Monsters definitely hold up: my testing is based on deploying mostly monsters in my playthrough on Very Hard against the Hunts. They're good throughout the game too, whereas Princess and Lord aren't even accessible until a bit past the halfway point.

Even if monster weren't as good as the classic Lord and Princess combos (which I disagree with), I don't think it's anywhere close being "extremely weak" in comparison.

[Kasa]

Warmage has haste as a counter so i already get that increase

[camelotcrusade]

I'm having fun leveling them. I really like a tricked out Pektite, and the Zolzit is good at picking things off. Otherwise for me it's not "good" so much as "how can I make this work?" If you like that kind of puzzle, there's lots of fun to be had with monsters.

[Kasa]

Im not particulary interested in "as good as but with caveats". I figure if it takes extra effort to aquire specific monster, and then they are only "Viable" and dont beat the strength of a basic gunner/warmage combo let alone vampire/warmage then although they can be fun they're not worth the extra steps to get.

Im more of a numbers + story guy. In FFT I had a team of lancers hitting for 400 to 500 dmg every hit plus FFT had a great story. Atm fells story is kind of weak and im hoping it pick up after the last temple.

So far the combat is a little lacking in the tatics department but nothing particularly wrong with it.

[Soul4hdwn]

tactics might feel less bad if didn't stick to the easy highest damage. there's other just as strong builds for humans too. although most "builds" tend to start showing when you get to the sea or have gotten everything already class-wise and found some more interesting weapons.

crits cause 100% chance to apply status effects for example... opens up higher damage via gunner's opportunity shot. then there's the late combos of lich/sorcerer + blood magic+double cast, why care about damage when you're hitting EVERY foe from safety of starting point?

[Realhollow]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Orrr, you could take the opinions of people who have quite successfully used monsters, such as these:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/2575445815935951286/#c2575445815936187501

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/2575445628468378108/#c2575445628468822948

Originally posted by Mechalibur:

Speedy Harvester has Cleave and Quicken :P Hell, Speedy is the ultimate action economy boost giving you 33% more turns passively with Auto Haste and a bonus turn with Initiative.

Monsters definitely hold up: my testing is based on deploying mostly monsters in my playthrough on Very Hard against the Hunts. They're good throughout the game too, whereas Princess and Lord aren't even accessible until a bit past the halfway point.

Even if monster weren't as good as the classic Lord and Princess combos (which I disagree with), I don't think it's anywhere close being "extremely weak" in comparison.

Makeing them "hold up" is not are they good you get them way to late haveing to capture them is a chore and not fun at all and they just are not as good as the humans they tryed to add something cool but i think its implamentaion was bad they should of been a choice from the start not at the point were you have settled into your human mc

[jakew42]

I'm on the last mission in Very Hard for my DLC playthrough, and my Speedy/Whatever Zotzit with Mystic Shield easily outdoes any vampire warmage type build I've fielded while being way safer. The computer usually won't ever bother attacking through 50% evade and mystic shield, so you can run them wherever you want.

My Drake/Shadow Pektite with evade magic does a bit less damage overall, but hits an AoE and can only be meaningfully damaged by a couple of abilities.

If you equip your team for the proper resists, you can have a Tyrant/Venomous Vangal Poison/Bleed/Sleep all enemies for 14 mp. You can just leisurely clean up the battle field afterward. I don't really tend to do this because it just feels too cheesy to me. Malcubi are probably even better for this if you don't mind dropping the bleed.

My Warden/Celestial Ericnee is dual casting Holy Bolts every turn for 200-400 damage a piece depending on resistances (which are generally in my favor), while having built in flight and rebirth and several powerful full map effects.

I've tried out quite a few other useful monster builds that are plenty viable, but those are the ones that I'd say are at least as good as your Princess/Vampire Warmage builds. Zotzits and Pektites in particular are available at full strength much earlier, too. Ericnee are still on par with non-badge classes prior to being able to access the Warden variant.

That said, I also wish monsters were an option from the get-go. Having to wait to do that mission to unlock Wranglers feels bad, especially for people who like to have a team set as early as possible.

Edit: I also think the other demon units could potential compete with top tier generic units, but you get them WAY too late to matter lol.

[Realhollow]

Originally posted by jakew42:

I'm on the last mission in Very Hard for my DLC playthrough, and my Speedy/Whatever Zotzit with Mystic Shield easily outdoes any vampire warmage type build I've fielded while being way safer. The computer usually won't ever bother attacking through 50% evade and mystic shield, so you can run them wherever you want.

My Drake/Shadow Pektite with evade magic does a bit less damage overall, but hits an AoE and can only be meaningfully damaged by a couple of abilities.

If you equip your team for the proper resists, you can have a Tyrant/Venomous Vangal Poison/Bleed/Sleep all enemies for 14 mp. You can just leisurely clean up the battle field afterward. I don't really tend to do this because it just feels too cheesy to me. Malcubi are probably even better for this if you don't mind dropping the bleed.

My Warden/Celestial Ericnee is dual casting Holy Bolts every turn for 200-400 damage a piece depending on resistances (which are generally in my favor), while having built in flight and rebirth and several powerful full map effects.

I've tried out quite a few other useful monster builds that are plenty viable, but those are the ones that I'd say are at least as good as your Princess/Vampire Warmage builds. Zotzits and Pektites in particular are available at full strength much earlier, too. Ericnee are still on par with non-badge classes prior to being able to access the Warden variant.

That said, I also wish monsters were an option from the get-go. Having to wait to do that mission to unlock Wranglers feels bad, especially for people who like to have a team set as early as possible.

Edit: I also think the other demon units could potential compete with top tier generic units, but you get them WAY too late to matter lol.

Ye but you have put alot of effort into this build and that's the problem they game doesnt need min/maxing like Disagia does and the story isnt exciting enough or interseting enough to play though a 2nd time thats why they are pointless its not that they are weak its that it takes to much time and effort for something thats uneeded and unfun (anyone who says playing pokemon with the monsters if fun is mental) but ye makeing Wrangles a choice from the get go should of always how it was if i could refund the dlc i would i i dont think it was worth paying for i was under the expectation that we would get the class from the get go so we could do full monster runs (with mc when mandatory) if we wanted

[OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle]

Didn't take much effort to put together my 100% map-wide sleep malcubus (tyrant/aerial). Is it useful in every battle? Nope, since it's a status build. But for encounters where enemies aren't immune to sleep/charm, they could all have 9999 hp/atk/mind and I still functionally couldn't lose the battle.

Speedy harvesters, due to cleave, can outperform basically everything damage-wise once they get into melee, they only need 1-2 turns to start that up. I haven't figured out my favorite combo yet but so far victory dance from pack leader is hilarious.

If you literally only want something that does stable ranged dps, of course monsters won't equal that. They can't hold guns lol. (Side note, DW gun warmage iirc isn't even the most broken ranged damage combo, I'm reasonably certain autocrit ranger warmage exceeds it significantly, with a small hit to range).

But if all you want to do is suck your thumb in the corner and shoot everything that comes near you, you aren't gonna find a replacement for what you're using now. There are other things, including monster allies, which are just as strong or stronger than what you're doing, they simply require a different strategy than what you seem to insist on using.

And don't misinterpret me, there's nothing wrong with that. Use whatever strategy you find fun. But it's a self-fulfilling fallacy to claim that it's 'the only good thing,' because really all you're saying is "this is the only thing that fits one very narrow strategy." If you try to use units/builds that don't fit your established playstyle, without making any adjustments to allow those other options to shine, of course you're going to be disappointed.

[jakew42]

Originally posted by Realhollow:

Ye but you have put alot of effort into this build and that's the problem they game doesnt need min/maxing like Disagia does and the story isnt exciting enough or interseting enough to play though a 2nd time thats why they are pointless its not that they are weak its that it takes to much time and effort for something thats uneeded and unfun (anyone who says playing pokemon with the monsters if fun is mental) but ye makeing Wrangles a choice from the get go should of always how it was if i could refund the dlc i would i i dont think it was worth paying for i was under the expectation that we would get the class from the get go so we could do full monster runs (with mc when mandatory) if we wanted

I'd say the Pektite and Ericnee were easier to get going than an average "good" human build and the Zotzit was at least easier than most of the "top tier" builds. I have fun with Pokemon type games from time to time, so I think that part is definitely a different strokes for different folks thing.

And yeah, full monster run was what I was hoping for, too. I grew up with FFT and did a couple of the challenge runs back when I was in middle school. Mediator Ramza 4 Monster was a favorite, and I was hoping I'd be able to recreate that here. I still had a good time with the DLC, regardless.