Hitting the Wall early with Hard Mode :(

[LostAngel1000]

So I had nearly beat the game before on Vet before the DLC Hit. Wiped my saves out started new but decided to up the diff to Hard figuring I knew enough to really handle it since I had gotten to pre end game before the DLC (Litereally think I had just a few more fights till the Final).

I guess 'Wall' isnt the best fit here since I am sorta progressing but... It feels like so much of what I thought I knew of the most effective way to play before, is either now not working well or totally wrong :/

Like for example, I always try to master a Class before changing for the Bonus. This least in Vet seemed like the right idea, as it gave you a perm boost to stats as well as what you gained while leveling up as that Class. Yet in Hard mode they seem to hit you with so much more I am wondering if I should just be changing classes to rapidly unlock classes cause I keep getting hit hard.

So am I just hitting that early game slump in hard mode? Or am I just totally misunderstanding how to play it compaired to Vet.

[Conan The Librarian]

Lost Angel-

As a simple answer for now: yeah, "Mastering every class I come across" will have you progress very slowly and is generally not recommended. Especially when you get to higher difficulty settings, "having a good build" is key as opposed to "oh hey, I got 5 extra attack from mastering that class". So, it's not like you have to "rush to unlock everything", but moreso, just be purposeful in terms of what you DO unlock.

If you'd like to read a discussion/analysis on Mastery bonuses, I'd recommend here:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/2269195350124419954/#c2252307485545878869

[LostAngel1000]

Yeh I see... It is just most classes seem to have most there best skills down at the bottom so It just seemed wise to least early game focus on mastering like Merc and Mender to have them as full Secondary classes to use while leveling in newer unlocked classes.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by LostAngel1000:

Yeh I see... It is just most classes seem to have most there best skills down at the bottom so It just seemed wise to least early game focus on mastering like Merc and Mender to have them as full Secondary classes to use while leveling in newer unlocked classes.

Ah, and something such as "mastering a basic class" is indeed good and recommended, your mind is on the right track there. As I always say about having a "solid base" for your heroes:

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

While I see what you mean, that's where "experiment and see what works best for you" comes in.

However, you know you've "learned enough for now" if you have a few abilities learned which you can lean upon on a regular basis.

Some loose examples:

• Mender with [Heal I] [Panacea II] [Mass Heal I] [Mana Font] and perhaps [Blessed One] will give that hero a solid base for "I can heal"--regardless of what other mage stuff you learn later on. (Bonus points for also grabbing the counter of [Renew] for extra survivability)
  
  
• A Scoundrel with [Dirty Hit] [Arterial Cut] [Sneak Attack] and [Attack Expert] is a solid base for being able to do damage / debuffing--regardless of what you switch to later on.
  
  
• A warrior-type hero with [Forceful Strike] [Power Strike] [Field Aid] [Counterattack] [Health Expert] [Flash Strike] (perhaps even [Stunning Strike] and [Precise Strike] will have a solid base to be an "in-the-action" kind of beefy hero, who can not only take a bit of punishment, but dish it out, and do a debuff or two. (again--semi-regardless of what other warrior classes you go to afterward).
  
  
• Wizard with the 4 basic elemental spells (perhaps a couple of tier 2 ones as well) along with [Smart Casting] is a solid base for a magical attacker--regardless of what you switch to later on (assuming it's also a "mage-type" class)

But to be slightly more specific along with the above, you can always skip some the A or B choices in skill trees to help expedite getting to the bottom. Maybe you don't want that stealing ability? Maybe you don't need both Mind Down and Attack Down on that Mercenary. Get what I mean? Choosing what's "most important to you" and leaving some blanks works perfectly fine while you're still progressing to "the skills I really want in XYZ classes".

[Mechalibur]

Where exactly in the game are you?

The bonuses you get from mastery are kinda small in most cases, so I generally recommend going for unlocking advanced classes first (although getting all the way to Revive II in Mender is a solid plan since Revive II is OP)

[Mieumieu]

Also remember if it seems to be too much, you can change the difficulty without starting the game over, or just go custom and lower one or two things that annoy you :D

I know you're probably doing it for the challenge and getting to say you beat a certain difficulty, just I saw some negative reviews from other people who dislike some things that you can change with difficulty tweaks so I wanted to bring it up.

I get you're looking for strategy to keep going on the current one, but remember that option is always there if you want to keep going and it isn't working well :D

[LostAngel1000]

Originally posted by Mechalibur:

Where exactly in the game are you?

The bonuses you get from mastery are kinda small in most cases, so I generally recommend going for unlocking advanced classes first (although getting all the way to Revive II in Mender is a solid plan since Revive II is OP)

Just got threw the first temple, but feeling weak as heck and while not losing I am taking more Injures then I want and on Patrols I go to to level up and clear Injuries I am winding up getting injured when I feel like I shouldn't be.

[jakew42]

The story battles scale with you on hard, so I wouldn't recommend using patrols to increase your level -- the enemies will just get more AP and even better items. Since XP is per action and AP is per battle, you end up with less AP for your level on harder difficulties since the battles take longer, which is really painful with how the enemies scale. It's probably my biggest gripe with the game, to be honest. You end up way behind enemies in terms of build unless you really planned out your characters beforehand and didn't take any detours.

Anyway, I'd recommend spamming some patrols where the enemies were at about 1/2 your level level to fill out some characters builds that are lacking. You won't get much XP (one per hit, 10 per kill-ish), but you'll get about 50 AP per battle still. You can even just turn on AI from the pause menu in battle to speed it up, if you want. Getting the big hitter passives like mind/attack up, dual wielding, etc., or some better counters (really like the status counters) makes a big difference.

The missions that provide lots of AP in the DLC have really reduced the need to do this in my current very hard playthrough, so I'd recommend making sure you take advantage of those!

You also probably want to avoid having character in 'leveling builds' on main story battles if you're struggling -- make sure you're going in full force and make up the AP with the above methods later. Things seem to even out again once you have some full builds online, so you won't need to do the AP grinding once your over the hump.

Also, some battles are just super hard to get through without injuries. Especially with the missions system now, you're probably better off having more generic characters you can switch out and just not sweat an injury or two. It'll also help your AP to level ratio with the bleed over AP and give you some more guys to have out on mission grabbing money/crafting ingredients/etc.

[Mechalibur]

As long as you're winning battles, that's what matters the most. You're probably going to take some amount of injuries on higher difficulties, especially early on in the game before a lot of builds come online.

I actually turned off injuries from the "Very Hard" difficulty setting and kept everything else the same, since I felt it just encouraged me to repeat patrols. I had a lot of fun that way.

[wolff_laarcen]

IDK why nobody ever links this guide; It's so good:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1866575410

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Lost Angel-

As a simple answer for now: yeah, "Mastering every class I come across" will have you progress very slowly and is generally not recommended. Especially when you get to higher difficulty settings, "having a good build" is key as opposed to "oh hey, I got 5 extra attack from mastering that class". So, it's not like you have to "rush to unlock everything", but moreso, just be purposeful in terms of what you DO unlock.

If you'd like to read a discussion/analysis on Mastery bonuses, I'd recommend here:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/2269195350124419954/#c2252307485545878869

What do you mean by "mastering every class I come across"? Do you just mean indiscriminate spending AP on classes? Because as far as I can tell, sometimes you get AP for classes you're not using, and other times you're not getting AP for classes you are using (even if they're set as your secondary), and I'm not sure how to change that.

My Wizard Virgil has the Alchemystic class as his secondary, has been using it very frequently to buff teammates. 0 AP gained.

Reiner is close to mastering Scoundrel, but what am I supposed to do with him after that? Should I swap him to Ranger? I apparently can only equip him with Crossbows, and I can't put a second weapon on him to have him as ranged and melee.

How do you become "purposeful" as to what you unlock, when you start out with X classes available and the only way to unlock classes is through spending AP on your existing classes?

I also don't really know how you're supposed to understand what a good build is the first time playing. I mean, I get the idea that strength-based classes go together well, as do magic-using classes, and dextrous classes, but that's about it.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

But to be slightly more specific along with the above, you can always skip some the A or B choices in skill trees to help expedite getting to the bottom. Maybe you don't want that stealing ability? Maybe you don't need both Mind Down and Attack Down on that Mercenary. Get what I mean? Choosing what's "most important to you" and leaving some blanks works perfectly fine while you're still progressing to "the skills I really want in XYZ classes".

No, I don't actually understand what you mean, because it appears that AP is on a per-class basis, it shows up anyway, and you can't move it around to other classes. So I don't see a reason to not spend the AP you can't use to max out a class.

Originally posted by jakew42:

The story battles scale with you on hard, so I wouldn't recommend using patrols to increase your level -- the enemies will just get more AP and even better items.

???

Then what the **** is the point of Patrols, exactly? My next mission is to retrieve a bone fragment, the enemies are all level [s]11[/s] 7 to 8, and most of my units are no higher than level 4-6, and the battle is a massacre.

I had only done one patrol all game at that point, and the only reason I did that was to give Reiner a rest because he went down in the temple, and it seemed like he had some story for the next mission and I wanted to take him

How am I supposed to catch up my underlevelled units? Send them on missions and stop playing the game?

Since XP is per action and AP is per battle, you end up with less AP for your level on harder difficulties since the battles take longer, which is really painful with how the enemies scale. It's probably my biggest gripe with the game, to be honest. You end up way behind enemies in terms of build unless you really planned out your characters beforehand and didn't take any detours.

How are you supposed to plan your characters out when half the classes are described as "???" before you unlock them?

Also, some battles are just super hard to get through without injuries. Especially with the missions system now, you're probably better off having more generic characters you can switch out and just not sweat an injury or two. It'll also help your AP to level ratio with the bleed over AP and give you some more guys to have out on mission grabbing money/crafting ingredients/etc.

I'm accepting of injuries, and I try and compensate for that by doubling up on classes so that I can have one in reserve if I need to sit someone out for a battle, but it seems like I have no idea how the AP/class system works, and the game isn't telling me.

[Conan The Librarian]

Stabbey-

To break down all of what you said would take awhile, therefore, I would recommend reading my guide's sections on how EXP / AP works:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=♥♥♥♥578363

For some simple summary: (though I still highly recommend reading the guide)

1. AP is awarded based on main-equipped classes. What your secondary class is has zero effect on AP gains whatsoever.

2. The AP you're getting in "other random classes" is "Vicarious AP", which is EXTRA AP granted based on what everyone else is learning. Don't worry, this isn't "reducing any AP" anywhere, merely a BONUS, so, quite nice.

3. Leveling-up lowbies who have "fallen behind in level" is simple, as EXP gains scale. If a low level unit harms or helper a higher level target, they'll gain a lot more EXP (reverse is true for doing stuff to lower-level-units). So, lowbies can "catch up" quite easily using this EXP scaling mechanic, cause the EXP will just fly by as they do stuff.

[Stabbey]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

1. AP is awarded based on main-equipped classes. What your secondary class is has zero effect on AP gains whatsoever.

That is completely unintuitive. If have a secondary class equipped, and I'm using the skills provided by that secondary class, and I'm seeing "EXP 17" appear, I would assume that I am being rewarded for using a skill. It makes no sense to be getting absolutely no AP for that at all.

So the correct thing to do is to class change what your "primary" class is frequently?

3. Leveling-up lowbies who have "fallen behind in level" is simple, as EXP gains scale. If a low level unit harms or helper a higher level target, they'll gain a lot more EXP (reverse is true for doing stuff to lower-level-units). So, lowbies can "catch up" quite easily using this EXP scaling mechanic, cause the EXP will just fly by as they do stuff.

Except that comes with the problem that those low level characters will be squashed flat by the high level monsters and injured, and if you bring them back, they'll be immediately squashed flat again, getting an additional Injury, and forcing them to sit out multiple battles and missing out all that XP.

I'm only level 8 on Kyrie, and already I'm facing enemies of level 7-8. Even hidden in the back, AoE effects will smash down my new recruits before I can keep them alive. If the level-scaling means that it's not safe to use Patrol to level up a new level 1 character, I don't see what I'm supposed to do. I have experienced this "newbies being squashed flat" business. Having that as the only way to safely level up characters does not seem reasonable.

***

I feel like I already need to restart, because apparently I can't correct my character builds, because patrol will result in over-leveling, and then the story missions will squash me. (Kind-of like they already are.)

[jakew42]

1. Patrols are good for a few things. They ARE good to level up underleveled units. I just meant not to push your high leveled units further, generally speaking. They are also a good way to get more resources for crafting, grab items you weren't able to grab during a story battle, and capture new monsters in the DLC.

2. Well, you can't really plan characters during your first playthrough without using the wiki or getting advice on the forums. That's why stopped to spend an hour or two to grind some AP on my first playthrough (also started on Hard). I think that's fair given that Hard and higher are supposed to be challenges, though.

3. I second giving a look at Conan's guide. I imagine Hard would be very frustrating without knowing some of the AP mechanics that are easier to miss or relegated to documentation.

----

Edit: I didn't refresh the topic before posting so I missed your last post.

I don't think you need to restart. Like I mentioned, doing patrols that are like 1/2 your level will give you 10-15% of the XP but 50% of the AP, and you can do them quickly (or even with the AI if you don't mind that type of thing). Upgrade your guild to boost AP generation and reduce mission time, and between the two you should be able to fix up your builds plenty quickly.

Also, low level units aren't too hard to level up in my experience. You don't have to take a level 1 unit to level 20 battles. There should be patrols in between, and you can easily get 15+ XP per action just by buffing your other guys from a distance.

Or you can always turn off enemy level scaling so you don't have to worry about those issues.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by Stabbey:

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

1. AP is awarded based on main-equipped classes. What your secondary class is has zero effect on AP gains whatsoever.

That is completely unintuitive. If have a secondary class equipped, and I'm using the skills provided by that secondary class, and I'm seeing "EXP 17" appear, I would assume that I am being rewarded for using a skill. It makes no sense to be getting absolutely no AP for that at all.

So the correct thing to do is to class change what your "primary" class is frequently?

Stabbey-

I'll clarify this design decision.

I would claim it is not "unintuitive", but rather, perhaps just "different" than what you've seen in the past.

As background, Final Fantasy Tactics had JP (Job Points) which were gained on a per-action basis. Consequently, many players would "cheese" the JP system by merely "attacking their own units while keeping one enemy alive" so they could farm as much JP that they wanted for no real effort.

6 Eyes, being big fans of FFT, wanted to make a game with a similar system, but with some adjustments to what they thought was "best". As a result, they made it so there was EXP, which is awarded on a per-action basis, which merely pertains to your main character level, and AP (Ability Points) which pertains to learning your various abilities. Since AP is awarded on a per-encounter-basis, this means that while players can cheese EXP, they cannot do the same with AP, which is overall much more valuable.

So, since the FFT-type class system is all about "Changing classes" and "mixing & matching" various abilities, everything in terms of gains is tied to the main class. This allows players the freedom to choose their secondary class with no strings attached.

For examples, some scenarios:

1. If AP was awarded per-action (like JP in FFT) -- People could cheese the system just like FFT had.

2. If AP was awarded to specific classes based on what ability that class came from, it would be troublesome as well.

"Oh, I want to level up THIS class, I should make sure to spam that class' abilities all the time so I can get the points to learn in it." Instead, in Fell Seal's established systems, players can use the abilities they want or need in battle instead of being concerned about spamming a specific class' stuff. Furthermore, what would be done with "class agnostic actions", such as potions / regular attack / etc? It would really just complicate things.

3. If AP was awarded based on secondary class as well -- Again, people would then feel compelled to choose their secondary class based on "I want to learn X" as opposed to "I want to use this set of skills to help make my hero useful in battle". This would also create the awkward situation of "Oh, I don't want this secondary class to be something I've mastered, because then I'm wasting potential AP gains".

Believe me when I say that this game has been out for quite awhile at this point, and the various systems have been thoroughly tested and thought-out.

As a side-comment regarding difficulties faced: Depending on what your difficulty settings are at, it might be a decent idea to bump those down while you're learning the game's systems. Since you can change difficulty settings anytime outside of battle, no need to start a new game or anything.

[Black Hammer]

Originally posted by Stabbey:

Except that comes with the problem that those low level characters will be squashed flat by the high level monsters and injured, and if you bring them back, they'll be immediately squashed flat again, getting an additional Injury, and forcing them to sit out multiple battles and missing out all that XP.

I'm only level 8 on Kyrie, and already I'm facing enemies of level 7-8. Even hidden in the back, AoE effects will smash down my new recruits before I can keep them alive. If the level-scaling means that it's not safe to use Patrol to level up a new level 1 character, I don't see what I'm supposed to do. I have experienced this "newbies being squashed flat" business. Having that as the only way to safely level up characters does not seem reasonable.

***

I feel like I already need to restart, because apparently I can't correct my character builds, because patrol will result in over-leveling, and then the story missions will squash me. (Kind-of like they already are.)

That's what the early level locked 1-3 patrols are for. Go grind those a couple times. Don't bring any of your high-level characters. Heck, hire new low-level ringers and use those to grind the early patrol fights for a bit. This will get you some cash, extra bodies for side missions, and vicarious/bench XP for the rest of your team while not getting XP.

Or if you're super-desperate, you could reset everyone to level 1, but I wouldn't recommend it.