Feedback (Counters): Blind Run w/ All Settings @ Max!

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Thread #3 of Blind Run w/ All Settings @ Max - Counter Abilities! This one's also split into two separate posts, but that's because I felt it was a lot more important to be thorough and go into every Counter option, for reasons that'll become apparent.

(Reminder, "Max All Settings" is Permadeath, Stats +50%, Full Gear, Many Items, No Level Max, Extra Enemies.)

Unlike Passives, the balance in Counters is... not good. Some Counters are just strictly better than others. The strongest Counters also tend to be available early on, meaning its not an issue of progression. I'll not be touching the unique Counters available to Bzaro since they're tied to more than just him. That, and I imagine it's common knowledge that certain Counters like Scar Tissue are among the best in the game.

I'll be tackling Counters in groups, as they fall neatly into specific categories, with intent to illustrate why certain Counters are or aren't flawed by directly comparing them to their contemporaries. Within each category, I'll organize the Counters roughly from best to worst, unless flow dictates otherwise.

[Group A: MP-based Counters]

Mystic Shield: Upon unlocking it (rather early on), I expected this to be the strongest Counter in the game. I was... partially correct. The nature of how Fell Seal scales as Level increases (deprecating the value of Attack outside of specific builds) made offensive Abilities with MP costs above 10 noteworthy even on my melee-oriented characters, so it wasn't quite the slap-on-every-non-mage that I expected it to be. However, on any class setup that can support it, it is unequivocally the best Counter in the game - and there are many classes that do. Duelist, Gunner, Ranger, Reaver, support or Dual Wield Assassins, Mercenary, support Templars, and non-One for All Knights are just examples. Cheeky mages with Economy that focus on sub-10-MP utility Spells (or, Mana Font and spells that cost under 13-14 MP) can also put it on in a pinch. Mystic Shield is so powerful because it's a strictly better Mirage effect - every turn, the first damage-based action against the unit is nullified, creating concrete trades in Action Economy. If a unit using Mystic Shield isn't focused and killed in a single round, it can quickly make large shifts in Action Economy as it nullifies one Act per turn, with healers easily able to pick up the slack of whatever bleeds through. This ability is 100% Overpowered, but, like Health Expert, I think it best to buff alternatives than nerf Mystic Shield, at least for now. This Counter is a Core Counter.

Absorb MP: I'm surprised this isn't called "Absorb Mana". Similar Abilities avoid using the word "MP" in the name, but this one doesn't. Shower thoughts aside, this ability is excellent. Its stand-alone value can be map-dependent, but it can easily outshine even Economy at generating MP in a non-negligible basis. Once Element Shields become available, they combine with Absorb MP to create Mana Batteries, bypassing the need for Mana Stone and also allowing healing opportunities. I can't say if such strategies are so good they're Oppressive and should be addressed, though, as my party was never in a good place to try and utilize it. Even without them, however, Absorb MP is one of the strongest Counters, easily slotting in on units that don't have space in Passives for Economy but still want to use Abilities like Righteous Blade, and is even easier to obtain than Mystic Shield. This Counter is a Core Counter.

[Group B: Evade Counters]

These Counters, as a group, I expected to be overpowered, but... actually, they're all kind of terrible? There's two reasons for that. Firstly, these Counters are only useful as Counter-picks, when a player has something specific they want to prevent. Secondly, they don't actually generate any Action Economy, since the AI won't attack into them, unlike Counters like Mystic Shield. (This is a good thing, please don't misconstrue.) Evade Counters instead value as "This unit can't be affected by X", acting like a third Passive that's just equipped as a Counter. The only reason they can't just be Passives is that they would become easily Overpowered if not mutually exclusive.

Evade Magic: The best of the bunch, because Spells commonly have Areas of Effect. Units with this Counter in relevant battles can avoid incidental damage from Area Attacks, providing more concrete value than other Counters in this group. It's not quite a gain in Action Economy, but it's useful and comparable.

Evade Skill: This Counter, in theory, protects against Gunners, and random deaths to Righteous Blade and company. The issue is that those units then instead focus on the rest of the party, and just clean up this unit afterward, if the remaining party members can't handle the pressure. This isn't to say Evade Skill is worthless, it certainly has niche value. But it can also very easily backfire if a player isn't aware of how the AI might react to them trying to equip this, especially on multiple units.

Evade Melee: ...Actually, early game, Evade Melee is pretty good. Enemies don't yet have many Attack alternatives, and Attack is still a primary damage source. It falls off a cliff the second the player gets a bit further in, but if a player can obtain it early enough, it'll find some potential time in the spotlight. Counterattack is generally better at this stage, but on units that can't find value in that, Evade Melee is a useful alternative if they can reach it soon enough. After a while, though, this Counter becomes worthless, as the only value of Attack becomes finishing off weakened units without spending MP, specific builds excepted.

Evade Ranged: Legitimately worthless. Aside from an Alchemystic with a Crossbow (oh no!) or (to an extent) an Assassin with a Bow that for some reason isn't subbed in Gunner, Ranger, or Mercenary, all units this counters have innate ways of getting around this. This is doubly noteworthy because the units this Counter affects already are better off using their Skills over their Attack command, so the only value this has is the weird niche where it prevents a Gun or Bow from scoring a K.O. in a situation where only Attack can K.O. Units with this Counter equipped may as well have an empty Counter slot.

Unlike other sections, however, I don't have many Solutions here. Part of this is because, for the game to not be trivialized by them, these kinds of Counters do need to inevitably be low-end, to some degree. The main thing I would change is to make them all cheaper and available earlier in the game, so a player can buy them and get use from them before they've built up a bank of more worthwhile Counters. Perhaps, Evade Melee and Evade Ranged could be Merged into Evade Attack, as even that wouldn't be very potent. As it stands, however, some lipservice to Evade Magic aside, these Counters are treated as some of the best in the game based on difficulty to obtain, but are actually some of the worst. The only time they really affect the game is when the AI randomly brings them to troll a player's strategy, which usually ends up being an annoyance more than anything else.

[Group C: Offensive Status Counters]

This is the most interesting group of Counters, on a design and team-balancing level. Since debuffs can't "refresh", parties often only want one unit with these Counters at a time, acting as a self-balancing mechanism of Power vs Action Economy. I'm not decided yet if the ultimate effect of statuses working this way is positive, but it does help ensure players are encouraged to use a wider array of Counters.

Counter Slow: Kyrie's unique Counter, and also one of the few non-standard Abilities I used. As far as Status-Counters go, this is probably the strongest one. Not because Slow's the most debilitating status, but because it's the most consistent in how it affects enemy Action Economy, and Counter Slow has a broad activation trigger. The only way to avoid Counter Slow is to be immune to Slow. And that consistency is key - it's a big element in what sets apart viable and non-viable Counters. This Counter is a Core Counter, albeit only for Kyrie, player-wise.

Counter Root: The "highest tier" Counter I found valuable, in terms of difficulty to obtain. Its advantages are the same as Counter Slow's - enemy units get locked in place, making them easy to ignore and invalidate. If an enemy triggers this while too close to the Party, they can just end up swarmed and dead, instead. It even shares Counter Slow's broad activation trigger. This Counter is a Core Counter.

Before moving on, I'll note that, while I didn't unlock them, I did encounter enemies with access to both Counter Poison and Counter Bleed, which I assume are on Crest Classes. In my experience against them, they seem to also have a broad activation triggers, making them just as threatening. Without obtaining and using them, though, I can't assert either way on whether they're Core Counters, but they're certainly high-end.

Counter Cripple: This is Yates' unique Counter, although it also appears elsewhere. I tried using it... once. While the fact it comes on the character it does is hilarious, as a fellow master of the cane arts, this Counter is... actually almost completely worthless. The reason is due to its more specific triggering condition. Most Skills that are valuable to suppress with Cripple work at range, and if an enemy is in melee-range, the Skills they're utilizing (ie Righteous Blade) are usually both deadly, and costly, meaning they likely only have one use in the chamber. There are exceptions, of course, but they're not even noteworthy enough to list. A potential Solution is better trigger, specifically "Triggers against a Skill" instead of a range-based trigger. This means the unit using this ability has to take one hit from the kind of Ability it wants to suppress before doing so, and its more flexible trigger is offset by no longer triggering against the Attack command, helping raise Attack's value later in the game.

Counter Mute: A Crest Class Counter, and a... decent one. Better than Counter Cripple, since its range trigger and abilities it counters broadly match. Though, I'd still make similar arguments about this, and posit the same Solution to those arguments - making its trigger "Triggers against a Spell", for the same reasons as Counter Cripple and its Solution. (Plus, keeping Counter Cripple and Counter Mute's triggers mirrored helps them remain intuitive.) Plus, this adds some value to Alchemystic's quirky Crossbow access, rather than making it get dunked on if it equips one against a unit with this Counter.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

[Group D: Defensive Status Counters]

Sadly, strictly inferior to Offensive Status Counters. The things that make the Offensive variants interesting hamstring the Defensive ones, as their potential is locked in their ability to only help their owner rather than hinder multiple opponents. Defensive Statuses themselves also tend to be weaker than Offensive Statuses, compounding the issue.

Counter Renew: Broadly, the best Counter in this group. Its value is comparable to Life Font, working in similar situations for units that can't spare a Passive slot. On ranged fighters (both physical and magical) that often want to stand still, this tends to perform better than Life Font does, since it doesn't require the Move part. It's not a Core Counter, but it's a strong pick that can preserve Action Economy. I used it more often than I didn't on at least one unit for my entire playthrough, at least.

Counter Barrier: For most of the game, I wrote this off as worthless. Then, I actually needed counter-status and couldn't afford to change a Exo Gauntlet for a Sapphire Earring. This then proved itself as useful Counter for what it is, as its broad activation trigger allows it to "chamber" itself easily for when its actually needed. Competition's far too stiff for it to come close to Core Counter-tier, but it's worth spending the AP on and remembering it's an option in a pinch.

Counter Fleet of Foot: As of 0.5.1, this Counter went from "Unusable" to "Niche". Answering Root adds a lot of situational value. It remains niche mainly because Fleet of Foot as a status isn't very useful. The Move stat in Fell Seal is regulated the way a game like Final Fantasy Tactics should have regulated it - but with larger maps, and enemies that are both more plentiful and sturdier, high Move broadly isn't useful because "sharking" is both more dangerous and less likely to pay off. (A friend who played this game on lower settings also commented to me that enemies felt rather sturdy, so I assume this is at least partially design intent. I think it works out positively, in either case.) While this pertains to Fleet of Foot as a status and not Counter Fleet of Foot, a Solution here might be to allow Fleet of Foot to enable a unit to pass through enemy units as if they're allies, making darts in and out of enemy ranks easier. In a complex battle, this would simulate a much larger gain in Move without actually providing it, helping curve possible exploits. In particular, it makes Counter Fleet of Foot valuable as it makes triggering it immediately open up escape routes or vantage points for flanking attacks that may otherwise not have existed.

Counter Thorns: Early on, this is a decent alternative to Counterattack for non-melee units. That stops being true once they get Counter Renew, or basically any other Counter, however. Thorns is a poor status with low damage potential, even on Stats +50%. Outlets that apply Thorns (ie Alchemystic) are also strictly regulated, meaning this low output can't be offset via quantity. Thorns itself also just isn't the kind of buff that is potent as a Counter - the "setup" phase of applying the buff means it essentially takes two actions capable of triggering Counter Thorns to deal damage. And, since Thorns deals in reflecting % of damage dealt, units need to be squishy to do good Thorns damage... but tanky to survive the hits to deal Thorns damage... so unless it's a min-maxed Reaver, this puts anyone wanting to use Thorns in any capacity in a weird place. All of these factors add up to both a botched status and a botched Counter, and I don't think there is a straightforward Solution besides taking everything to the shop at some point - unless both Thorns and Counter Thorns being "bad" is design intent?

Adaptive Affinity: It's a buff, technically. The idea behind this Counter is interesting, but in practice its too situational to be valuable. Monsters with Elemental Abilities that can trigger this often resist or absorb them. Human classes with Elemental Abilities are mainly just a subset of magic classes and Duelist. Elemental Weapons aren't common, and most of the ones that do exist aren't good. This Counter can only be used reliably by self-triggering it via Elemental Absorb, but this means a net loss, trading one Action of Economy to multiply a different one by 1.5x, unless there's active need to heal the unit in question at that exact moment. It probably functions well on Elemental Absorb sets that can spare a Passive slot for Economy (meaning that the unit probably won't need Absorb MP), and on lower settings can be further stacked with Elemental Mastery, but that's ultimately what this Counter amounts to. I'm not really sure how to make it any more broadly useful without some fundamental change or stepping on the toes of Elemental Mastery, though.

Critical Quicken: Also technically a buff. Also the best overall "Critical" Counter, but that doesn't mean much. Immediate AT allows the unit to preserve via an Item, applying Rebirth or Mirage via an Action, make a final Act against the current gamestate, etc. This also means that, albeit only on some units, this Counter also perfectly mimics the effects of all other "Critical" Counters. Although, again, not saying much. This Counter still isn't good, but its effect is powerful enough that it can't not be Critical-based. A Solution to make this more viable, then, would be to broaden its trigger to any offensive action. This would allow for player shenanigans, in a couple really obtuse and specific ways that come to mind. However, I don't think they're meaningful enough to be a concern, since none of the ones that immediately come to mind generate momentum for actually ending a battle, even once set up.

Critical Rebirth: It... functions, I guess? It technically generates one Action of Economy by Rebirthing a dead unit, and if that unit achieves AT without expending Rebirth, it can be preserved. Its just not a good option as a self-preservation Counter, compared to options like Mystic Shield, or arguably even Counter Renew. Although, I'm not actually sure this needs to be a "Critical" Counter. Rebirth status in Fell Seal is well-balanced and functions in a way that's difficult to exploit, and the unit in question to be re-killed before it even achieves an AT. One Solution is that this could easily be a Counter with no Critical component but stricter activation requirements. For reasons that'll make sense further down, I'd propose a Counter Rebirth that reads "When this unit is damaged by a Regular Attack, Counter with Rebirth." It's a bit narrow, but a Counter Rebirth only needs one trigger to be valuable much further down the line, so it'd still be useful. Another, more conservative solution, is to replicate Critical Quicken's Solution, but I don't think that would help Critical Rebirth gain much value the way it might for Critical Quicken.

Critical Mirage: Actually worthless, only slightly better than Evade Ranged. Inferior in all ways to Mystic Shield, Critical Quicken, and Critical Rebirth, as those Counters can all provide everything this does while having other functionality. I'd propose a Solution of outright changing this from Critical Mirage to Counter Mirage, using the text "When this unit is damaged by a damaging Ability, Counter with Mirage." This way, Attack, Status-only Abilities, and misses don't trigger it, but it responds to a damaging hit by allowing Mirage to absorb the following hit. This would shoot it from worthless to around the quality of Mystic Shield. The unit wouldn't lose MP, but Attack would hurt them like normal, and they have to take the damage before negating following damage, meaning they have to have the HP to survive multiple hits first. The fix proposed for Critical Quicken absolutely wouldn't fix this, however. Mirage is correct to be tightly regulated, but it isn't strong enough to offset a "Critical" trigger, especially in an environment that also includes Mystic Shield.

Critical Haste: Critical Mirage was barely better than a Counter I called a blank slot. This Counter is somehow worse than even Evade Ranged. The key issue is that Haste doesn't help a unit achieve a new AT after being placed into Critical. It makes the unit faster, yes, but Critical Quicken does that better, and the unit still has to survive until it hits an AT after being placed into Critical for any benefit of Critical Haste to begin paying. Haste gives 33% SPD and lasts 3 turns. So, in absolute optimal conditions, Critical Haste can generate one net turn of Action Economy, over a long period of time. Often, it generates less than that. In many cases, the unit won't be living until its next AT unless it's particularly fortunate. Haste in Fell Seal is well-balanced in its Action Economy benefits, so it isn't strong enough to push a Critical-only trigger into be viable, the way it might be able to in Final Fantasy Tactics, on top of just not synergizing with it. The only Solution I can think of here is similar to my suggestion with Critical Mirage - make this into Counter Haste, and have it read "When this unit is affected by an Ability that inflicts Status, Counter with Haste." It'd be a bit more stringent than Counter Mirage, but it offsets the fact that Haste's true potential isn't quite as immediately quantifiable.

(I also, on an technically related note, like the idea of Rebirth, Mirage, and Haste using three forks of more narrow triggers as the most powerful status effects, while effects like Renew or Barrier have broader triggers. It just "works".)

Wrapping up, I know some Crest Classes have access to Counters that add the remaining status effects, such as DEF UP and RES UP, using the Counter Renew trigger conditions. While I didn't make use of them and haven't dug into GameOptions.txt to see the math, I'd imagine they're strictly worse than Counter Renew. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's generally how things tend to fall, in games like Fell Seal where a Regen-like option and Protect-like option are both available. Perhaps if both DEF UP and RES UP were gained from the same Counter, or maybe the math is more favorable than I realize, but initial impressions is to assume not.

[Group E: Damage and Miscellaneous Counters]

And, finally, the remaining miscellany.

Teleport Other: While there are some instances where this Counter can be frustrating, the mission at Godstear Wastes is the only time I actually unequipped it due to them. Otherwise, this Counter is excellent. Ejecting a unit can pretty consistently generate at least one turn of Action Economy due to the size of maps, assuming the player doesn't Split the Party, allowing for them to focus-fire down the remaining enemies before the first one returns. This Counter is a Core Counter.

Counter Magic: This Counter puts me in two minds. On the one hand, it's excellent. The damage isn't Elemental and doesn't cost MP, so there's no chance of backfire. There's also no consideration of range, unlike with Counterattack, making its performance consistent and reliable. The issue main issue with it is that its primary beneficiaries are squishy mage-types, who often benefit more from a survival or disruption-oriented Counter. Perhaps this just comes down to difficulty settings, or perhaps this is another case of a Counter coming too late in the tree to be relevant? Counter Magic itself is designed more or less perfectly on the design level, so there's nothing to change on it. For me, it just came at an awkward time, so it was something I was only able to utilize a few times.

Counterattack: Excellent early game, as it directly generates Action Economy via extra Attacks, and Attack doesn't yet need specific builds to be useful. As the game ramps up, however, better forms of generating Action Economy like Mystic Shield unlock for melee units, the value of Attack on average units falls, and ranged weapon users can't utilize this ability for some reason. (Unless, of course, the target is in melee range.) Is there a concern for, say, a (Dual Wield) Gunner using Counterattack and shooting mages repeatedly in the face? The One for All Ability already allows for more proactive versions of such tactics. Maybe, on lower settings, such ideas are more powerful than I give them credit for. If such a thing isn't a concern, I'd certainly propose the Solution of expanding the range to Weapon Range, and if such thing is, propose a reading of "When attacked by an offensive Skill or Regular Attack, Counter with Equipped Weapon, if possible." It's just a matter of, in the mid-to-late game, its Gunners and Rangers that are the only units left that would potentially want to use this Counter, specific builds excepted, yet they're completely disallowed. Plus, if that's what it takes, Counter Magic already exists to answer Spells, anyway.

Counter Steal: Useful for grinding. Useless for combat. Nothing wrong with that, technically, as it still fills a niche. If there were any desire to make Steal "competitive" as a combat choice, the only flavorful Solution that comes to mind is giving it a 50/50 chance of Stealing either an Item or Component with no miss chance (unless there's no more Items or Components to Steal), with both chances being Item Steals for the AI. Another idea that would at least make this unique would be to transform it into Counter Steal Buffs. As it stands, however, Counter Steal fills a fundamentally different purpose than other Counters, and that's not so much a bad thing, it'd just be nice for it to have some quirk or perk that encourages a player to use it outside of farming, which would in turn help them get a better understanding of how valuable it can be when they are farming.

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In Summary:

Core Counters: Mystic Shield, Absorb MP, Counter: Slow (Kyrie Only), Counter: Root, Teleport Other.

Noteable Counters: Counter: Renew, Counter: Barrier, Counter: Magic.

Niche Counters: Counterattack, Evade Magic, Evade Skill (barely).

Not Worth Using: Everything Else.

As said, this is where I think Fell Seal is most poorly balanced, hence breaking down every Counter entry. Like Passives, it's inevitable for some to be better or more broadly useful than others, but the gap here is far too great. With Passives, there were (for me) the Core Six, but also two Honorable Mentions, and a good list of Passives that were strong enough to determine what classes I'd choose, if not strong enough for me to equip separately. However, there are only four Core Counters (five on Kyrie), and the quality gap between even the Niche Counters and the rest is insurmountable if a player is looking for quality Counter options. Counters can become the crux of entire strategies as they're a key way of generating Action Economy, so the fact so few have value is particularly disappointing.

Also, while I did technically advocate the removal of one Counter command (merging Evade Melee with Evade Ranged), unlike the previous thread, I don't have an immediate suggestion on a Counter to replace whichever goes missing. While Counters are mostly assigned to classes that operate with them well intuitively, they're not tied to them the same way Passives are. As such, while I can certainly suggest ideas for potential Counter commands in a vacuum, I can't think of any immediately that tie in well directly to the flavor of either the Templar or the Ranger in that intuitive way most Counters do. Perhaps (if that change is made) the one that loses their Reaction could inherit Evade Skill, and Duelist could be the one to obtain a new, more powerful Counter? Duelist having Evade Skill is quite flavorful in how the rest of its skillset works, but since the Duelist also already has Crippling Flourish, it probably wouldn't mind gaining a new Counter command that both helps further its gameplan and also expands its horizons a bit as a self-contained class.

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From here, I'l thinking either Classes or specific Equipment will come next. Both topics should hopefully be much shorter than Passives or Counters. I originally wanted to get to the design of specific encounters but the more I think about that, the more I feel it should wait until the end.

[Conan The Librarian]

RavenOfRazgriz-

As I did before, I'll leave a few notes (and not comment on everything).

1. Just a small FYI that an interesting property of [Evade Melee] means that you'll also evade melee [Counterattacks]. It's a small extra functionality that can have some uses. (This, of course, is not to discount your points on this...just a tidbit of info)

2. Yeah, it was a conscious design decision for [Counterattack] to not be range = weapon. 6 Eyes feels that that would be a bit strong. In terms of "general player feedback" which I've observed over the months, there are many players who favor Counterattack in general (obviously this is taken with the usual caveats of varying difficulty levels).

My second perspective on [Counterattack] is to keep things in mind from the player fighting the AI view. Especially given that it's an early-availability counter, if it also worked at range, I think that it would frustrate many players. By giving it a limit of "directly adjacent attacks only", it allows people to circumvent it easier. Especially in the earlier levels of the game, there has been a bit of feedback from players stating how they found [Counterattack] frustrating in general.

3. I know you mentioned this already, but just to reiterate: Yes, the "causes negative status" counters of Slow / Mute / Bleed / Poison are quite good. I quite see your point regarding the trigger parameters on counter mute, but yeah...being able to Bleed / Poison enemies from ANY range with those counters is quite potent.

4. As a history note, both [Counter Critical Mirage] and [Counter Barrier] were "nerfed / corrected" at a certain point. The issue for Mirage was that it would trigger every time (every time the critical condition was met) which in some circumstances caused for a recurring loop of constantly having the Mirage buff...yeah...I'm sure you can how annoying that could be haha. The issue was similar with Barrier, to where it almost (some exceptions of course) made the unit who selected that counter to be immune to debuffs since it would trigger every time. So, to make them function in some sort of normal fashion, they were limited to once a turn.

5. Lastly, (again not to discount your points on this subject) thorns. Same comments on "seeing it from the player vs AI perspective". If thorns is "too strong", then it ends up being a (semi) unavoidable hazard for whoever has to deal with it. (Side note: of course it means "well just dispell it then", but dispells might not necessarily be as prevalent vs. thorns' availability) Given that thorns is "more difficult" to circumvent as opposed to [Counterattack] (due to triggering from any damage), it makes sense that its damage isn't as potent. That being said, are there any adjustments that should be made to how thorns works? Perhaps, and we'll see what 6 Eyes thinks.

So, thanks for droppin' a line...plenty for 6 Eyes to read.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Just a small FYI that an interesting property of [Evade Melee] means that you'll also evade melee [Counterattacks].

I'd assume it has that functionality, yes. But, from the player's POV, the enemy only brings Counterattack infrequently after the early game, so I don't think it changes my assessment of it at all.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Yeah, it was a conscious design decision for [Counterattack] to not be range = weapon.

By giving it a limit of "directly adjacent attacks only", it allows people to circumvent it easier. Especially in the earlier levels of the game, there has been a bit of feedback from players stating how they found [Counterattack] frustrating in general.

I'm certain it's quite useful at lower difficulty levels for ending fights faster. But those fights could just as easily be won out by effects like Mystic Shield, etc. Counterattack is certainly better on lower settings where there's more room to make mistakes and fights can be ended more quickly, though. That's probably a broad way to interpret things: Damage translations are better at lower settings and Economy translations are better at higher settings.

As for the circumventing, that's quite understandable, but melee-oriented units early game have options like Forceful Shove and Flash Strike from Mercenary, etc. This is why I suggested perhaps making it only affect Attack and Skills. Because, I can understand how, say, a player feeling they can't utilize their mage well early game because someone brought Counterattack and a Crossbow is frustrating to deal with.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Yes, the "causes negative status" counters of Slow / Mute / Bleed / Poison are quite good.

Behind Mystic Shield and Absorb MP, I'd say that this class of Counter command is broadly the best in the game, due to reliability. Counter Cripple (and to a lesser extent, Counter Mute) are the odd ones out, really.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

So, to make them function in some sort of normal fashion, they were limited to once a turn.

I wasn't aware of this, but it's definitely a good thing to have in place either way. (Perhaps a buff to Critical Quicken could coincide with it also getting this treatment to prevent infinite turn loops?) I'd say, however, that this only makes me feel more strongly about the update I suggested to Critical Mirage, since that functionality change it and Counter Barrier received previously ensures there's no endless loop potential, as you've said.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Given that thorns is "more difficult" to circumvent as opposed to [Counterattack] (due to triggering from any damage), it makes sense that its damage isn't as potent.

Certainly. My comment was more about how Thorns seems overly neutered from all angles. If, for example, the Thorns spell on Alchemystic were Mass Thorns, even if it were given an MP Cost of 12, it would be a significant increase to the value of Thorns because needing to wait a little to apply it is fine if it can be applied to enough units to be valuable. It's basically an issue of:

1. Thorns deals low damage.
2. Thorns applications are (to my knowledge) all single target.
3. Counter Thorns requires that extra turn of setup that neuters all its value.

If Thorns were, for example, a low-damage status that could be applied without a big loss in Action Economy, I'd understand it being how it is and just write Counter Thorns off as a victim of the circumstance of its status being designed for rapid mid-game application. Counter Thorns in the early game is, like I've said, functional as a stop-gap Counter, and it does make an interesting early-game obstacle for new players learning the system. But it feels like all parts of the game (example, Alchemystic and other means of proactive Thorns application) treat it like it's a more powerful status than it is.

This delves a bit into the value of the status itself (similar to Fleet of Foot) rather than the Counter variation of it, but it still felt worth talking about, as I wasn't sure how much of this was design intent for early-game purposes and how much was just overvaluation of the Thorns status effect as a whole.

[6 Eyes Studio]

Gah, sorry I haven't had time to respond earlier. I've been incredibly busy working on our Xbox One build while at the same time keeping on track with then weekly build >.<

First, thanks for the very detailed feedback, it's much appreciated!

Once again, it's even more interesting to get a perspective from a "hard run", since you focus a lot on survivability, which makes for a different focus than "veteran mode" feedback, which is usually focused on doing more damage, rather than surviving.

I'm adding a bunch of notes as there's definitely a lot of interesting points raised in here. :)
Again, I probably won't get to those for a few weeks though >.<

I'm definitely going to review the "class progression" too to try to make sure counters that could be seen as "stepping stones" are accessed a little earlier or tuned a bit.

I admit I don't have too many other comments right now, as there's a lot of good points to consider in there.

Thanks again!

[RavenOfRazgriz]

It's no problem. :)

I figured you'll get around to things when you'll get around to them. I'm just trying to work on these posts when I can to be sure my thoughts are all up before I end up not having access to my system for a while for the holidays. From what I understand, Veteran Mode seems about calibrated to be difficult while still letting people go in with a break-faces mentality, which is probably the just-right setting for it.

I do think in some cases (eg, the Evade X Counters) it'd be nice for either their classes or their places in their classes to better reflect their quality. But, I don't think it's so bad that stuff like Absorb MP and Mystic Shield is available "early", either, kind of like why I don't think it's bad that Health Expert is available early. Where possible, I do personally think buffing is better than reshuffling, although I know there are lots of hats to wear in terms of determining how much time can be put to that sort of thing.

[MTaur]

Thorns seems mostly balanced around punishing Sorcerers, in which case Counter Magic works better anyway. Thorns could deal double damage for single-target attacks without getting out of hand. It's also possible that the fine details of damage reduction mechanics are double-penalizing it to oblivion, but idk. I just found experiments with it disappointing.

Evade X indeed has problems. Most basic attackers can swap a basic attack out for a 90% scaling skill, but with magic, mages often have no recourse other than disengaging. Evade Skill can avoid some AoE, statuses, or skills that out-range attacks, but it's not usually compelling.

I guess Thorns could be balanced. Some of the other stuff is pretty binary in how it works.

[Dorok]

Is this "guide" general or only for highest difficulty? Just asking by curiosity, myself I don't like much make a first play through orders of a guide. :-P

[Tuidjy]

RavenOfRazgriz, you do not seem to have considered the fact that one can equip, for example, Evade Magic on ALL of his combatants, and thus negate the offensive power of a number of enemies. I actually have Evade Magic on all but one of mine, and Absorb Mana on the last one.

It works beautifully.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

You guys are aware this post is six months old, correct?

[Tuidjy]

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

You guys are aware this post is six months old, correct?

Not until you mentioned it. I was just checking to see whether my understanding of how things work was wrong. I realize now that things had changed before I found the game.

But the point about Evade Magic stands. The enemy can't just shift targets, except to the one that's deliberately prep'd for absorbing and mostly negating spells.

[Dorok]

Lol, so overall obsolete? Balance everything is impossible, and experiment is often a necessity that explained comments won't remove fully. I had read those around Evade, and it was looking interesting by quoting some possible traps or benefits.

[MTaur]

Most of the commentary seems pretty solid and up-to-date, with maybe the exception of the Haste reaction, which might have been buffed, but I'm not sure. I think the post mostly reflects the current game state. It's my fault, though, I was Googling to get the numbers on how Slow and Haste work generally and this came up at or near the top.

[Mechalibur]

Haste counter was indeed buffed. It now just gives haste instead of just giving haste when hp is critical. It's pretty good now!

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by MTaur:

Most of the commentary seems pretty solid and up-to-date, with maybe the exception of the Haste reaction, which might have been buffed, but I'm not sure. I think the post mostly reflects the current game state. It's my fault, though, I was Googling to get the numbers on how Slow and Haste work generally and this came up at or near the top.

Just as an FYI:

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Bijat-

First, in terms of haste / slow, check this thread:

https://steamcommunity.com/app/699170/discussions/0/1648791520846708413/

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

Haste has your time bar fill 33% faster. :)

Second, Ryniel gave some good info, and to give the number specific, if you take no "action" in a turn (you can still move), then your following turn will arrive 25% faster.

So yes, speed indeed makes a pretty big difference, and hence why its stat growth numbers on units are a bit "heavier" in comparison to other stats.

[MTaur]

Slow was hard to find anywhere. Somewhere else they said it was a matter of dividing instead of multiplying, but the numbers weren't given. But if that's so, then if haste is speed x 4/3, this would make slow into speed x 3/4.