Feedback (Passives): Blind Run w/ All Settings @ Max!

[RavenOfRazgriz]

(God, I wrote way more about this than I realized. Looking back, part of me thinks I went a bit too far, but I know from the other side how important in-depth Feedback is, so I'll post it anyway, even though it has to be segmented.)

Originally, I was going to post all of this in a single thread, but since the first thread has turned into a hub of discussion about the difficulty options, it seems it would benefit organization for parsing feedback to have each topic contained within its own thread. So, this thread will be about Passives, in the context of an "All Max Settings" playthrough.

(That's Permadeath, Enemy Stats +50%, Enemies have Many Items, Enemies have Full Gear, Extra Enemies, and No Max Level Scaling, as a reminder!)

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Firstly, the Good Passives. Some are certainly made better than others. Some objectively so, and others simply due to the nature of the environment of "All Max Settings". Also, for reference, I don't have any real feedback on Crest Class Passives, nor the Passives available to the story characters' unique classes, as I never really used any of them. From the ones I unlocked on my B-Team units, however, a few seem quite strong and Princess seems to be the best class in the game bar-none, while others like Cleave sound like they'd be strong on paper but would fall flat in practice in a Max All Settings environment, although would likely still be quite powerful in configurations that don't include Stats +50%.

Without further aideu, the Good Passives, or as I'd call them, the Core Six:

Health Expert: The most valuable Passive, due to enemies having +50% Stats. This ability found itself stapled to every unit I owned, and often allowed for units to scrape by at 5-20 HP from cripplingly powerful attacks, letting them recover and save both precious Action Economy on revival and long-term Injury. Fortitude could also prevent Injury, but the Action Economy maintained from the unit being able to self-heal (or be healed by another ally and then itself Act) made this strictly the better choice. The downside to this was that I only ever had one "Flexible" passive slot on my units, but it never really mattered. It's probably Overpowered, but I'm not sure if that's a bad thing, in this case. On lower settings, it give struggling players a strong option to prevent being overwhelmed, and on higher settings, it's one of the things that makes Stats +50% + Permadeath a feasible setting combination to complete. Since all it does is keep the player alive, they still has to find the path to victory, after all, and using this ability as a crutch means doing so with one fewer Passives available.

Evasion Up: The second most valuable Passive. It hits all the same notes as Health Expert. The only reason it's not superior is that Health Expert's reliability supercedes the swinginess of Evasion Up. However, I often just equipped both on any non-mage that could do so, anyway. Any attack the opponent misses is a gain of Action Economy, and a 1/5 chance to gain Action Economy against any offensive move the opponent makes is usually too good to pass up. I'd definitely say it's Overpowered, when compared to contemporary Passives with similar effects or purposes. There's a good argument for its benefit to be Nerfed to 15%, but I think it's just as or moreso important to buff the contemporary effects that compete with Evasion Up, since even at 15%, Evasion Up would still eclipse them.

Economy: The third most valuable Passive. It allows MP costs to hit all the right notes. 10 MP Fire II, for example, deals the same damage as a Double Cast Fire I at a lower MP cost. Many expensive abilities (Righteous Blade, for example) cross MP thresholds that allow them to be used a turn earlier. Other key abilities (such as Heal II and Mass Heal I) with Economy can be cast at the important sub-10 MP threshold, and it only takes one turn of not spending MP for Economy to mean a Wizard can cast Locus spells for most of the remaining fight non-stop, if they need to. This ability is also essential for Double Cast, which I'll discuss a bit further on. Like the first two Passives, this ultimately comes down to Action Economy, although Economy provides it by making each Action more valuable, rather than allowing you to directly perform more Actions. I'm not actually sure if I'd call this overpowered or not. On the one hand, it greatly improves the long-term action economy of a unit, but on the other hand... that's ultimately what any good Passive should do. It's certanly the best non-overpowered Passive, at minimum, but I wouldn't argue against it being reduced to a 1/4 savings either, as it were. I don't think such a change would impact its placing on this list, anyway.

Mana Font and Life Font: I put both these Passives in the #4 slot, albeit tentatively. Life Font is invaluable at lower levels, generating Action Economy by allowing for less turns to be spent using Heal abilities, and Mana Font serves many similar roles to Economy. Life Font, however, becomes markedly less useful to the point of no longer being worth equipping for the most part once levels pass a certain threshold. Mana Font, however, maintains a bit of value in that Mana Font + Economy can be a powerful tool in the hands of specific classes with high-cost abilities. Absorb MP tends to fill this role better, but in situations where the Counter slot isn't available, Mana Font remains a valid alternative, making it a bit better than Life Font overall since its performance is more consistent. Mana Font is pretty well-balanced, if a bit weaker than Economy in most instances. (I'd place its value at about that of an Economy with a 1/4 savings.) Life Font could possibly use some kind of scaling as units get larger HP pools, though, perhaps. In theory, units having higher Move potential would keep Life Font competitive, but most battles don't require units having Move beyond 4, and gaining Move score is vastly overpriced in tradeoff with other statistics for what value it brings. But, that's a matter of Equipment, and a separate topic entirely.

Double Cast: Without Economy (or, on specific maps / with specific party compositions, Absorb MP), this Passive is basically worthless, as the MP costs to utilize it consistently aren't maintainable. With Economy, however, this Passive becomes oppressively strong, particularly when combined with the Druid and/or Gambler skillsets. While I'd argue the Druid skillset is uninspired, in this specific context it can easily outshine most other forms of spellcasting - mainly because status affects aren't affected by Double Cast's nerf to effectiveness. On one hand, the damage-based spells are pretty much worthless unless they hit a weakness. However, Double Cast Poison is great for both sniping Critical targets and also doling out lots of Poison at once, resulting in far more net damage for the user. Double Cast Heal I is almost as strong as standard Heal II for the same MP cost. Double Cast Dispel and Panacea I allow for a lot of status control. Double Cast Aegis and Shield are quite useful in a pinch. Particularly of value, however, is when you take all these factors, and combine them with Lady Luck to Double Cast Allure and Pile-On. Honestly, the very particular synergy between Economy, Double Cast, and Lady Luck is quite Overpowered, and arguably the broader interaction between Double Cast and status is as well. It relies on also having Economy or some kind of Mana Battery, yes, but can easily trivialize encounters no matter what difficulty settings are chosen, once a viable unit is assembled. Double Cast should probably be Nerfed also have its status application chances reduced to 3/4 the way its damage effects are. Double Cast II would still allow all the described things, but it's locked behind a Crest Class that most players won't have the option to unlock until quite far into the game. That class' innate skillset also lacks some of the tools the Druid skillset has which makes specific Double Cast builds exploitative, so in some ways it's arguably more balanced in the long term, due to that, although I'd still assert it as the Best Class in the Game for other reasons.

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Honorable Mentions:

Dual Wield: Dual Wield is a good increase in power for the Attack command and has some interesting interactions, making it a strong choice on niche builds that can be good enough to be put in one of the "Flexible" Passive Slots. It never suited the play style of any of my units, so I only made infrequent use of it, but the few times I did use it, I was reasonably surprised at the decency of the results. I'm certain for a more aggressively-minded playstyle trying to survive in this kind of environment, Dual Wield to help snipe-down units without paying MP (allowing the use of Mystic Shield, as most other good damage options cost more than 10 MP, even with Economy) would be essential, so I'll list it among the best passives even if I didn't personally get too much use from it.

Item Potency: This one's an honorable mention mainly because I didn't give the Peddler proper respect, or understand how valuable some of my items would be in the end-game, until it was far too late. The potential of this ability - particularly with the basic Potion, the Rock, and the Mana Stone - can't be understated. The only thing stopping me from asserting Item Potency would allow a unit to substitute for the entire Mender skillset as a healer are range and the finitity of Items. In a Max All Settings environment, the long-game is the most important thing of all, and Item Potency is basically on a clock based on Inventory. Some of these issues can be fixed, but they require more specific builds than just giving a unit Holy Magic does, although the potential in return is also greater in some ways. If I did a second playthrough, I'd almost certainly find use in this skill, to the point it could substitute over one of the above Core Six on a noteworthy basis. I'm not sure it would be potent enough to turn the Core Six into Core Seven, though, as its utility outside of its combination with the Peddler skillset itself would be something I'd have to sit and play with on a separate playthrough to really weigh and form thoughts about.

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This isn't to say most other Passives are bad, however. Concentration, Initiative, Lucky, Malice, Smart Casting, Boon, Blessed One, the buffed Cautious Step, Blood Lust, and No Flank all immediately come to mind as solid Passives, as do Leech Life and Leech Mana on specific builds or on Dual Wield units. The interactions between Versatile, Know Weakness, Exploit Weakness, and (I believe) Boon also seem interesting and possibly quite potent, although I never really explored them. They're just very hard to justify using in one of the two "Flexible" Passive slots over any of the above-listed Core Six Passives, when playing on the highest settings. So, most often, when they're needed, it's simply a better value trade to use the class that gets those Passives "for free", or equip them on a class that instead gets one of the Core Six passives "for free", if that can be justified over running a unit with three of the above Core Six Passives.

On lower settings (particularly any environment without Stats +50% turned on) I'm sure at least most of the above Passives can be made to be quite good. There's nothing wrong with any of them, and they don't need any fixes or changes I can think of. They're well-balanced and are effective at doing what they're supposed to do without pushing the envelope into being overpowered. They're also ones I usually find particularly concerning when enemies bring them in the All Settings Max environment, often moreso than if they bring the Passives that I gravitate to, as their enhanced stats cushion the lack of the above Core Passives and let them really get the most out of the above alternatives. (And also Dual Wield. Dual Wield +50% Stat Enemies can be terrifying.)

In general, despite my assertion that the Core Six Passives are the best, most of the Passives in this game do feel well thought-out and balanced. There's a few (like Height Advantage) that are hard to justify using, but that's more because they're niche and the nature of SRPGs tends to not let players be in the position to be the ones benefitting from them as often. When they work out, they're pretty solid, though.

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[RavenOfRazgriz]

There are, however, some outright bad Passives. And, when I say bad, I mean both generally, and in the context of the "Max All Settings" difficulty:

Sturdy Grip and Equip Shield: On the Mercenary who gets Sturdy Grip for free and has shield access, it's amazing. On the Templar, Equip Shield is almost entirely pointless, as there's almost no reason to ever not use a Scythe on it, since early game shields aren't very good, and late-game Scythes are excellent. (Also, Swords are worthless, but that's, again, an Equipment issue.) On other classes, Equip Shield suffers because, even when you get the Mythril Shield, it's still inferior to Evasion Up, in addition to many of the classes that would benefit most from Equip Shield also relying on two-handed weapons. Which, actually, also explains Sturdy Grip's problem: Most classes with a compatible weapon don't have shields, and the few that do would benefit more from just equipping Evasion Up. (Bows / Crossbows don't even work with Sturdy Grip, although with how good Evasion Up is, that doesn't actually matter.) Factor in that Accessories can still be equipped in all slots when using a Two-Hands Weapon (particularly the Pure Band, Gauntlet / Wizard Glove, Plate Gauntlet, or Exo Gauntlet, depending on story progression) and the only value for these abilities becomes the late-game ability to wear Elemental Absorption Shields on certain mage units, in conjuction with Absorb MP to create your own Mana Batteries. For me, the Solution here is two-fold, but simple: Merge Equip Shield and Sturdy Grip into a single ability, and allow Sturdy Grip to work on Bows / Crossbows. Bowmen don't sit around with their bows drawn 24/7, and many small to medium shields (the kind that seem to feature in Fell Seal) can be arm-strapped rather than held, so it's not actually some giant violation of realism. This would make this ability a much better option in the early game, when the player has yet to get Evasion Up on most units, and would allow it to transition into its role of facilitating Elemental Absorption later in the game on a wider array of units, allowing it to maintain value, albeit as a single ability rather than two separate ones. Shields in general might also be a bit Underpowered, overall, but again that's a matter of Equipment, and I think this change would be good even in an environment with more potent Shield options.

Doublehand: Leading right off Sturdy Grip to its polar opposite, Doublehand isn't good (and, in fact, is actually terrible) for simple mathematical reasons. At the end of the current Early Access, where Weapon Attack values should be most beneficial to Doublehand, the Gada deals in 112 ATK, which can only be matched (evenly) by a Doublehand + Marauder's Axe combo... at the cost of your Passive slot and 6 Defense. Most non-Axe weapons are weaker than the Energy Scythe when combined with Doublehand. A Doublehand Holy Mace or Ice Brand can barely surpass (by 4 and 5 points, respectively) the ATK value of the Silver Scythe, a far older weapon. On early game weapons, since Doublehand is % based, the difference is even more pronounced. This is also not the result of an early-game class Ability getting phased out, as Sturdy Grip and Equip Shield could be argued to be - this ability appears on the rather mid-to-late-in Reaver class, after all. Most classes that would want to use Doublehand already have access to either Mauls or Scythes, on top of this, and the few that don't, have shield access, which they'd be giving up in addition to the cost of a Passive slot for an ultimately inferior weapon. Obviously, if this multiplier is too high, things get unbalanced, understandably. So, to me, the Solution here is simple, if not initially intuitive: have Doublehand, instead of giving a % bonus to Weapon ATK, add a static amount of ATK to the ATK of your Weapon. Weapons grow at a relatively consistent rate in terms of ATK, so this would let Doublehand be relevant for the entire game, and allow it to be specifically calibrated to avoid OP combinations. It would additionally make Doublehand a way of keeping weaker weapons still relevant, in some fashions, which could be interesting in niche situations. After comparing some values of Swords and Axes (the weakest and strongest 1H weapons in terms of ATK, sans daggers) to Scythes and Mauls, my personally recommendation would be a static addition of at least 28 ATK. 28 ATK is about the average difference in ATK between a Maul or Scythe, and a Sword of the same tier. I'd, personally, however, push the envelope a bit and let this value hit between 44 and 50 ATK. This would make an appreciable difference between, say, a Doublehand Sword and a Scythe or Maul. Considering this comes at the expense of a Passive slot, this isn't particularly unfair, and Dual Wield would still be stronger when combined with Attack, so this would be like it's more generalized alternative.

Attack Expert and Mind Expert: These abilities are... strange. At low levels, they amount to one or two Wizard Gloves / Gauntlets. If they were obtained rather early, before the player had many Passives, this would probably be fine... but Attack Expert is very high in the Scouldrel tree - a unit with very low ATK growth. Mind Expert is locked even further away, near the end of Druid, which is now a late-game class as of the most recent revisions. By the time a player gets even Attack Expert, they've likely obtained better passives such as Life Font, Health Expert, Mana Font, No Flank, etc., and the amount of work that Attack Expert takes to achieve could instead be put into getting the far more impactful Boon Passive, which just outright lets you deal double damage after an initial kill, allowing for fights to be snowballed. At about Level 40, they give an average of 30-35 ATK or MND, which is close to the minimum value I said Doublehand would need to be a viable Passive option. This just might be a situation where the Solution these Passives would shine more if they were just available sooner and for cheaper, letting them fill early game niches and grow alongside the player. Right now, they're so far out of the way, they're generally not worth bothering taking the time to obtain. Alternative Solutions would be to either allow these Passives to factor in Equipment bonuses, or to increase their benefit to either 20% or 25%. In the former case, for example, my ATK-stacked Level 39 Kyrie equipped with a Gada, a Judogi, and four Battle Claws would gain 56 ATK from such a change if she equipped Attack Expert. In the latter case, a unit with 200 base ATK before equipment (eg - on average this is a unit that's between Level 35 and 40, for context, as my Level 39 Kyrie has 214 ATK) would go from gaining 30 ATK to gaining 40 ATK or 50 ATK. In both cases, the numbers come out to be more in-line with what I would say mid-to-upper viable Doublehand numbers are, although I'm not sure which is the better choice for keeping these abilities viable over the entire course of the game rather than just in a specific segment of it.

Defense Expert and Resistance Expert: Unless I misunderstand how damage mechanics work on a fundamental level, these options are just inferior to Health Expert. Unlike many other entries on this list, however, I don't know have any ideas on how this could be addressed. It depends exactly how the defensive half of the formulae work, which is something I haven't looked to see is public or not. Perhaps these are better than I give them credit for, or perhaps a small boost that falls in line with whatever boost Attack Expert and Mind Expert receives, should they receive one, would be enough to make them at least closer to being competitive with Health Expert.

Equip Heavy: With how the system in Fell Seal works, this ability is actually worse than Defense Expert. Even on my B-Team blaster mage that's pretty much exclusively nothing but a Princess / Sorcerer / Wizard, equipping Defense Expert, Chain Coif, Ninja Garb is only 4 points shy of the Morion and Ancient Armor, while providing noticeably more RES. (This is ignoring the secondary effects of the Ninja Garb, of course.) On units with more base DEF - that'd be most units in the game of comparable Level, considering - Equip Heavy seems pretty much pointless, as an equippable ability. The only thing of value Equip Heavy seems to allow is the equipping of the rare Soul Armor item. At the right point in the game, Equip Heavy for the Silver Helm and Silver Armor to boost MND and DEF simultaneously is also an option, if you happen to have the ability at just the right time, but that's fairly niche and only for one segment of the game. On the one hand, I get that it's here for "completion", as it were. On the other hand, I feel the Solution here is just allowing Plague Doctor the access to heavy armor innately and replacing this with a different Passive that furthers Plague Doctor's objectives. That would benefit all parties involved, as it were.

Fortitude: I mentioned this Passive in the previous thread in regards to the Permadeath mechanics, but I'll talk about it here in more detail. Its only value is in modes with Injuries enabled, when the player wants a unit they can be explicitly suicidal with. Otherwise, options like Health Expert and Evasion Up eclipse this as ways to prevent characters being Injured by just making them not die. While I'll again iterate I don't think the design direction of "Passives that negate status" is a good one, see: Cautious Step, if that's the direction Fell Seal is going to utilize, I think the Solution to making Fortitude attractive is adding immunity to Weaken, Poison, and maybe Bleed. The new Weaken can be panic-inducing if applied to a unit at the wrong time on high-enough settings, and Poison / Bleed sap Action Economy by taking multiple turns to fix, outside of fairly specific moves like the Plague Doctor's Recovery. Such immunities would take this Passive from "Why bother?" to actually worth considering, since it both can help indirectly maintain Action Economy and cushion mistakes for struggling players by preventing Injury. Poison and Bleed are reasonably common, so it might be enough to turn Fortitude into a default pick, and if not, it would certainly be a strong counter-choice in the vein of Cautious Step with such a change, if nothing else. Either would be better than its current state, which I'd almost hazard to call a newbie-trap, as it appears to be much more useful than it actually is.

Elemental Mastery: In some ways, this Passive is actually great, despite being listed here. After experimenting with it to get a broad feel of the numbers, I did end up opening GameOptions.txt to see the exact math of it, though. Defenses of 0 or less get reduced by 25, which is the main actual perk - essentially making it a 25% boost to Elemental damage, while also helping simplify questions of AOE by cutting into enemy resistances. This isn't just good for the Warmage's Element Bursts, but also for the Sorcerer and a few other niche classes. There is, however, one factor on it that's major to the point it makes me wish I could actually un-learn this Ability on my Warmage - it cuts into an ally's defense, specifically those using Elemental Shields. This is a Big Deal, because Warmage is also the class that learns the best abilities for combining with said equipment, and there's no way to "turn off" the passive after learning it. Now, while the knee-jerk solution to such a conundrum might be "make it not affect allies", that would make an ability that works inconsistently based on targets, something I personally despise and I get a sense that the developers also dislike. So, my proposition here would be to instead make the Solution be to have this ability to be unable to affect Elemental Resistances over 100. This would solve the problem of the Warmage essentially permanently hamstringing itself from being able to fulfill one if its best roles for the crime of simply buying an ability, and not have too much negative gameplay effect. Absorb, after all, tends to sit at 150, meaning it gets reduced to Null anyway in most instances that it and Elemental Mastery interact. The only time this change would be noticed is in really obscure situations where the player wants to AOE with an ability backed by Elemental Mastery where one target happens to both Absorb the Element and also be at low enough HP for the healing to matter... but since Warmage gets access to all four basic Elements, the solution here (unless an ally needs to also Absorb that same specific Element) would just be to use a different Bolt or Burst ability. Such a thing holds true for most other Element-defined classes as well, as only Yates, Princess, Lich, and Marked specialize in single-Element skillsets, that I can recall, and those are all either unique characters or Crest Classes. This change also cuts both ways, allowing encounters to be made where Warmages and other AI units with this Passive to attempt to fuel an engine of Element Absorption for the player to deal with.

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Then, finally, the awkward. There's only one Passive I want to talk about here, and fundamentally, it's not a bad Passive.

Mana Expert: In terms of sustaining long-term MP, it's worse than Economy. In terms of short-term MP, it's arguably outclassed by just getting Initiative, which takes less investment in AP to reach, and can give you 10 of Mana Expert's 15 bonus MP by you just ending your turn in place. Except, with Initiative, you also have all the other options that come with getting an entire free turn. Said free turn could include popping a Mana Stone, possibly with Item Potency, so that when your "proper" turn comes around, you have even more MP than Mana Expert would have allowed, alongside that one extra turn of free Action Economy. Mana Expert, therefore, seems to only really be useful before the player obtains the Mana Stone, on units that really just want to belt out high-cost stuff early with no concern for the long-game, or if the player just really wants to conserve their Mana Stone for late game once they've obtained it. There's also a few classes (such as post-Economy Sorcerer) that can benefit from that 5 extra MP, admittedly, but they're few and far between. Mana Expert is just... really niche, due to the fact Initiative and Economy overlap most of its core functions. I'm not sure if there's really anything to be done about this - Economy seems about "just right" balanced, with 1/4 savings being about the only nerf it could receive, Initiative without MP (for example) on the free turn would probably be worthless, and Mana Expert giving 20 MP... the current 15 MP Mana Expert already allows for turn one Righteous Blade and Assassinate, technically. However, there may be something I'm missing, so I can't 100% confidently say such a change wouldn't prove to be Overpowered without digging around for niche combos. It's the first change that comes to mind, though. I just felt compelled to point out that, unless I've missed something important, Mana Expert is just in a really weird spot compared to contemporary abilities, even if in the end it ends up staying as-is.

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[RavenOfRazgriz]

Now, I did suggest the removal of two Passives (Equip Shield by merging it with Sturdy Grip, and Equip Armor), so I'd like to suggest two potential Passives to take their place:

Crusade (Templar): Effects that absorb HP/MP absorb 1.5x the usual amount. This wouldn't increase the damage of such effects, just how much the unit performing the effect would absorb as a result. This would directly bolster the Templar's Siphon ability, as well as give it compatibility with the Fellblade's Health Siphon - which seems to mostly do rather meager damage anyway, so a large boost to health drained via a Passive would probably be welcomed. It'd also synergize with the Leech Mana and Leech Life Passives, making them more valuable as equipped Passives on the Templar over options like Mana Font, Economist, Life Font, etc. (and also allowing this Passive to slot well onto Warmage and Duelist), and generally slot into a lot of niche situations. I'm sure there are also other instances that I'm forgetting about. For bosses that can drain health (thinking of one in particular), this could be given to them, and be an interesting Passive that gives them longevity instead of them just being walked over even on the highest settings.

Status Expert (Plague Doctor): Status Immunities on a target instead reduce their chance of a Status being inflicted by half instead of negating it. This would really help the Plague Doctor shine, as many of its status moves have no damage component, and the ones that do (Poison and Poison Burst) do basic magic damage, unlike a class like Fellblade, whose abilities can be useful for damage dealing even when the status is completely negated. Plague Doctor isn't a bad class by any means, but this would give it that final push into being a true contender. It would also be useful on specific Boss Enemies - I can think of one boss in particular (again - it's the same boss, even) whose almost completely trivialized by bringing some easily-available status immunity, and them having this as a Passive would make them a lot more threatening. (This boss is also, for some reason, also vulnerable to Charm, but that's another topic.) Bosses also tend to have unique Passives in general, so for bosses that absolutely should not be vulnerable to a specific status, a Passive that negates the effect of Status Expert could be utilized, or such an effect could be added to a specific Boss-Only Passive. Fell Seal is, thankfully, generally conservative with boss status immunities anyway, so such a feature wouldn't cramp too much on the style of Plague Doctor or other units using this Passive, the rare times such a hard-counter would have to come up.

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Next post will probably be about Counter commands. Thinking on it, I probably should've did Counters before Passives, as I feel Counters are actually far less inter-balanced than Passives are, but I already wrote this, so, that'll be next time, I guess.

Alternatively, I might go back and forth between Ability balance and in-game Difficulty issues, and make the next post about some specific Encounters or Bosses or somesuch. Not sure yet. If there's interest in something specific, I could jump to that instead.

[Conan The Librarian]

RavenOfRazgriz-

Woo, a lot for 6 Eyes to absorb when they're able to.

As you put forth a lot of interesting points / rationales, I only want to comment on a couple of things.

[Sturdy Grip] used in conjunction with [Dual Wield] is actually pretty cool, as it allows you to DW two 2-H weapons. Granted, I'll admit I haven't gone through a mathematical analysis of such as idea as compared to others, but just wanted to mention it for food for thought.

Regarding [Sturdy Grip] and Bows, I get what you're saying in terms of the rationale (flavor wise, I mean) but then it runs into some issues, which, tbh, is moreso on the "programming / user experience side" as opposed to anything else. What I mean is this, if bows (and crossbows ofc) can be sturdy gripped, these end up as possibilities:

• Bow and Shield (pending the ability to wield a shield). For sake of argument, while I personally wouldn't be as keen on it, your point on the "strapped shield" makes sense enough to consider.
  
  When you add in [Dual Wield] alongside [Sturdy Grip], however, that when things start getting wonky.
  
  
• Bow and melee 1-H weapon. I guess this means that when they're shooting the bow, they sheath their melee weapon to allow the second hand to pull the bow string. The complication is in melee range: The way things are currently programmed, is when you're DW, both weapons will attack as long as they're in range. Since bows don't have a minimum range, in melee range, the unit would attack with both melee weapon and bow. Granted, theoretically it could mean slash then sheath then fire (or opposite order) but then it starts to border on "believable" in terms of how much action that character did in one turn. If this is an issue and the idea is "well, just make it so the bow doesn't shoot at melee range" or something like that, that would not only require more programming, but also be a bit complex and unintuitive.
  
  
• Bow and melee 2-H weapon. Like above, it could be some sort of "weapon switcheroo" to allow for this. Again, I think this would not be a good idea, and to make workarounds would require programming and be player-wise unintuitive.
  
  
• Bow and Gun (guns being 1-H guns only in FS). Weapon switcheroo idea. In a sense, shooting then switching to bow (or vice versa) could perhaps work, but, same thoughts as above.
  
  
• 2 Bows?? Right, I get that this is ridiculous, as honestly, it would theoretically be easier to just shoot twice instead of shoot / switch / shoot again. The issue is that (how things are currently programed, at least) without the "bows" exception on [Sturdy Grip] the game would then allow this. Of course, yes, the solution could be to "not allow two bows".

My point in the above (forgive me for putting an example analysis which is somewhat ridiculous) is that likely the best way for it to be changed (if at all) would be "Can equip 2-H weapons in 1-H, except Bows, which you can then equip a shield with, but not a melee weapon or gun", which I would claim is a bit convoluted of an idea (yes, I know it's possible to clean up my "tooltip" there, but it's just for sake of explanation). "Can Equip 2-H melee weapons in one hand and allows use of shields with Bows / Crossbows" (ok, that sounds a little better). So, we'll see what 6 Eyes thinks of the idea. I'll admit that on thinking about it more thoroughly, even though I wouldn't advocate the idea, I would be fine if they made that design decision.

Some general comments:

I appreciate that you made sure to include your experience parameters (as in, being on hard difficulty settings).

I also like how you made mention of not only comparing passive X to passive Y, but including some thoughts on "when this passive is available". That being said, some passives (such as [Mana Expert] and [Mana Font] should be taken into account when they're unlocked as opposed to other things (like [Economy]). For example, I would say that [Doublecast] is still useful when combined with another "mana" ability, such as [Mana Font], as it can "suffice as a lesser [Economy]" in a sense until you get that. While healing numbers might be more effective to single-cast a higher level heal, 1. You might not have heal II available on that unit 2. Being able to Panacea (or Plague Doc Treatment, etc) two times in a turn is pretty useful. 3. Maybe a heal 1 and a panacea 4. Maybe a buff and a heal (etc, you get the idea).

I understand how you didn't look as much as unique / badge classes, so I get ya there. I would like to point out that those classes have some quite potent abilities ( such as the princess, as you mentioned ) and certainly make a difference in terms of "what's good". [Cleave] for example, (at least on lower difficulties) is quite strong, and in fact was nerfed to no longer grant the 10 mana regen for the "extra turn" because of how effective it was.

So, as always, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts for 6 Eyes' consideration.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

[Sturdy Grip] used in conjunction with [Dual Wield] is actually pretty cool, as it allows you to DW two 2-H weapons. Granted, I'll admit I haven't gone through a mathematical analysis of such as idea as compared to others, but just wanted to mention it for food for thought.

I'd considered this, but it's more an extension of Dual Wield. Only the Mercenary can utilize this specific synergy without giving up both of its Flexible Passive Slots. Given that Two-Hands Only weapons were my personal mainstay weapons on physical fighters, I could see this being quite strong. But, I don't think affects my perspective in that the value of Sturdy Grip is very niche in its best circumstances, and that merging it with Equip Shield would certainly aid its utility in being less niche, particularly in the earlier segments of the game.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

• Bow and melee 1-H weapon.
  
• Bow and melee 2-H weapon.

I can certainly see those being wonky for flavor reasons, but also consider, how many classes can make use of such things? Fell Seal doesn't have Passives (aside from the one on a specific Crest Class) that allow you to cross-equip weapons between classes, so classes are often locked to their innate equipment. With the current classes, there are no classes capable of using a Bow and a Two-Hands Only melee weapon. Many of the classes that use both Bows (or Crossbows) alongside melee weapons mainly use weapons like the Dagger and Rapier, which are commonly flavored as "faster" weapon types. One or two use Axes, but the ones in Fell Seal seem to be of the smaller and faster to wield variety. (Aka, the ones that would've actually been used in combat.) One Crest Class is also already capable of using Gun + Rapier, which isn't 100% comparable flavor-wise to Bow + Rapier (eg), but the Guns in Fell Seal also seem to be flavored more like single-shot rifles, putting them at least on par with Crossbows, which are also in the Two-Hands Only Ranged category.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

• Bow and Gun (guns being 1-H guns only in FS). Weapon switcheroo idea. In a sense, shooting then switching to bow (or vice versa) could perhaps work, but, same thoughts as above.
  
• 2 Bows?? Right, I get that this is ridiculous, as honestly, it would theoretically be easier to just shoot twice instead of shoot / switch / shoot again. The issue is that (how things are currently programed, at least) without the "bows" exception on [Sturdy Grip] the game would then allow this. Of course, yes, the solution could be to "not allow two bows".

I'll admit, those do get silly.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

"Can Equip 2-H melee weapons in one hand and allows use of shields with Bows / Crossbows"

I'd only put in the exception for Bows, myself, mainly for the flavor reasons. This is both because of my previous thoughts v how Guns / Crossbows are flavored, and due to the fact Crossbows game-play wise really seem to underperform compared to Bows and Guns. I'd be fine wiith either in the end, though. It's just a matter of, until a player gets Dual Wield at the end of the class tree, the main purpose of Sturdy Grip is to allow shield access, and it really doesn't do that well - especially since many accessories are both almost as good as shields and many of the best candidates can't use shields innately. Bridging that gap to make a more fully realized ability would be nice and make Sturdy Grip a much more useful Passive in the early to mid game, which is particularly important since it's one of the Passives on a starter class, so early game viability of them is particularly important.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

That being said, some passives (such as [Mana Expert] and [Mana Font]) should be taken into account when they're unlocked as opposed to other things (like [Economy]).

With regards to Mana Expert, this is why I stressed the comparison to Initiative. Initiative is on a class that takes equal "work" to unlock, and can be obtained by investing less overall AP in that class. My mention of Economy (and while I didn't mention it, I'd say Mana Font does the same) was more to say "and also, it doesn't work as a means of longer-term MP generation because better options exist". Initiative also doesn't have this flaw of being "Power Crept", as it were, due to it generating an entire extra turn, so it puts Mana Expert in, like I said, an awkward spot. And, like I said, this may just end up being how it is, but it would just be nice for it not to be. The more competitive Passives can stay with each other (rather than being deprecated over time) the more interesting building up custom units becomes, as it becomes more about weighing pros and cons rather than just upgrading. Economy, Mana Font, and Initiative all have pros and cons when weighed as individual Passives, and interact with each other to create different results when combined. Mana Expert's just the odd-duck out, unless I've missed something vital.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

For example, I would say that [Doublecast] is still useful when combined with another "mana" ability, such as [Mana Font], as it can "suffice as a lesser [Economy]" in a sense until you get that.

It certainly is, I was a little bit hyperbolic in saying Double Cast requires Economy, but the things Economy lets Double Cast do can't be compared reasonably to the things Mana Font allows it to do, and the main thrust was explaining what these Passives can do at their peak that makes them valuable and why. Like I said, Mana Font is still an excellent Passive, and even after I obtained Economy, I still found use for it. There's a reason it's still in the Core Six, for me. The rest of what you said is basically how I used Double Cast - a lot of low-cost MP abilities being cast twice. Economy just pushes that to the limit (and is what I listed as making Double Cast go from somewhere between Not Viable and Okay to "Wow" Tier) because it allows those low-cost spells to be cast at under 10 MP total. Mana Font can replicate some of this, but not quite to the same extent, which is what made me emphasize Economy so strongly. Mana Font + Double Cast is quite good in the interim though, admittedly, especially since you don't need some of the specific synergies that require Economy until later on in the game anyway.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

[Cleave] for example, (at least on lower difficulties) is quite strong, and in fact was nerfed to no longer grant the 10 mana regen for the "extra turn" because of how effective it was.

I'm sure this ability is quite potent at normal stats. Many of the ones I listed as outside the Core Six almost certainly are. Stats +50% in particular just changes the way the game needs to be approached, so the small differences in value really add up, since fights can't be ended as quickly.

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

So, as always, thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts for 6 Eyes' consideration.

No problem. Didn't mean for this one to be so long but, these things happen. :)

[6 Eyes Studio]

@RavenOfRazgriz

Thanks for another very detailed and very thorough set of feedback and suggestions :)

I don't have too many comments to add on this, just a few quick things:

Very intersting information! I think the feedback should help us update some of the passives for certain. Bundling Equip Shield and Sturdy Grip could certainly be interesting for example, Elemental Mastery raises an issue I hadn't considered, and there's plenty of other good suggestions that we'll want to look into. Thanks a bunch!

I think it's very interesting to get feedback from a "very hard mode" perspective and it certainly highlights different ideas and concepts.
Most of the usual feedback is centered around "doing more damage", rather than survivability, so it's a different take that puts very different passives into the limelight (for example, Health Expert and Evasion Up are usually not that popular with most people, as they don't directly increase your damage output).

It's going to be a little bit before we get to make all the chances we want to balance, but they'll be coming :)

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

I think it's very interesting to get feedback from a "very hard mode" perspective and it certainly highlights different ideas and concepts.
Most of the usual feedback is centered around "doing more damage", rather than survivability, so it's a different take that puts very different passives into the limelight (for example, Health Expert and Evasion Up are usually not that popular with most people, as they don't directly increase your damage output).

There certainly are some good / interesting ways of "doing more damage", even if I ended up listing the more straightforward ones as not being worthwhile. It's not that unsurprising that defensive options aren't given due respect by more typical players, from my own experience.

But, the math on Health Expert and Evasion Up in particular really stomps down on all other contemporary defensive options, as they stand. Evasion Up (+an accessory), for example, really outshines both Defense / Resistance Expert in their current forms as well as Equip Shield, even if it were nerfed to only be +15% Evasion.

It's not related to Passives in particular, but, as an aside about defense, the one mechanic that comes off as being kind of broken in Fell Seal in general are the Evasion mechanics. Not the RNG (I've seen people complain about that, but to me just seems to be a Final Fantasy Tactics-style single roll, which I like) but the mechanics of how Evasion vs Accuracy work in Fell Seal are in general very exploitable. By end-game, I was commonly equipping Exo Gauntlets in my head slot (hence owning over 20 of them if you've checked my save) because building units that both had over 40% Evasion and the bulk to survive the times they did take hits (and then have powerful Counters to boot) was too good to pass up. My one Dual Wield unit I mentioned here (albeit I only used them story-wise in a single sidequest mission) was a Main Gauche user, and they were able to hit 75% Evasion... with Mystic Shield.

It's much more a matter of Equipment than Evasion Up, but it is one of many reasons I'd not be saddened to see Evasion Up go to 15%, on top of making it easier for contemporary moves to compete without being forced to inflate their numbers to insane proportions. (Although I'd still say they need a boost separately, just a lesser one if Evasion Up takes a bit of a hit. I did do my best to advocate buffing over nerfing, though, as I really only think a couple things are so strong they're "too good".)

Originally posted by 6 Eyes Studio:

It's going to be a little bit before we get to make all the chances we want to balance, but they'll be coming :)

Of course. :)

I figured having this stuff in its own threads would be easier for that. Notes can just be taken and cross-referenced and cleared off the stack as they're gotten around to. I'm well-familiar with how these things go.

[6 Eyes Studio]

@RavenOfRazgriz

Thanks for the additional notes!

Yeah, we'll look at those numbers as part of the balance changes we have planned for sure.

And I do appreciate the separate thread. Much easier to navigate and reference afterwards! They're already pretty big as it is, haha ;)

[RavenOfRazgriz]

The size is more than I originally expected, but yes, lol, sorry about that.

Evasion numbers aren't an immediate concern, of course. Number tweaking is something better left for closer to the end, after all, unless you're already doing something in that area. Just something to keep in the notes so it doesn't get lost. :)

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Sorry on the double, but I had a bit of a Shower Thoughts moment while taking care of something and want to mention it before I inevitably forget.

With Doublehand, I offered the Solution of a static-value bonus. I'd like to amend that to being a semi-static bonus, particularly an ATK bonus of 24 + Level, communicated to the player as something to the effect of "Hold weapon in two hands. Increase ATK based on unit's Level." This would offer Doublehand a minor scaling element, allowing it to keep up with its (hopefully also buffed) contemporary Attack Expert better at all levels. At Level 1, this would be a 25 ATK bonus, and at Level 30, this would be a 54 ATK bonus. An average player might get Reaver as early as Level... 15, perhaps? Resulting of an earlier-game bonus of 39 ATK. More than reasonable when the fact it only works with lower-ATK weapons is factored in. This feels like a "best of both worlds" kind of solution - fixing the issues with Doublehand while also letting it keep a scalar so it'll be relevant at more points in the game.

Perhaps this could also be applied to Attack / Mind / Defense / Resistance Experts? It would scale them more like Equipment, except tied to the player's progression in Levels rather than Story, and can be more finely tuned to ensure the numbers are competitive for longer stretches of the game. It'd also make a clean divide in how Passives work in regards to affecting the damage stack - those that apply to the unit's stats directly become semi-static bonuses, while those that only apply after damage is calculated are multipliers. Such a formula might fall off a bit at very high Levels (75+?) when compared to a % one, but even the tooltips mention that it's possible to 999 (HP) / 500 (Battle Stats) / 250 (SPD) stats before hitting Level 99 anyway so this probably isn't the biggest deal, as the bonuses from these Passives would probably still be enough to nudge those units to the cap.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

Such a formula might fall off a bit at very high Levels (75+?) when compared to a % one, but even the tooltips mention that it's possible to 999 stats before hitting Level 99 anyway so this probably isn't the biggest deal, as the bonuses from these Passives would probably still be enough to nudge those units to the cap.

(Unless I'm misunderstanding you) Just FYI that the stat caps are actually at 500, not 999.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

(Unless I'm misunderstanding you) Just FYI that the stat caps are actually at 500, not 999.

You're right, that's what I get for not bothering to launch the game and re-check that tooltip before posting. I'll just, fix that. :^)

I don't think it changes the core of my point, however, in that shifting the value of these Passives closer to the early game would be fine because units can hit their stat caps long before Level 99. Especially since, I assume, the numbers on the Tooltip menu don't factor in the equipment of their hypothetical Sorcerer. Level 40 units with their current Early Access Equipment can break into the 300 - 350 ATK / MND territory, after all.

[6 Eyes Studio]

Thanks for the added notes.
Not 100% sure what our plan will be with those, but if we were going with "flat bonus" to any of those, the plan was definitely to have something like you suggest or maybe something like: 20% of ATK (min +10), for example, to ensure it can still scale at higher levels, and that it doesn't start with a value that's too high. Those are just random numbers I pulled out of a hat for the example though and don't mean anything.

In any event, now we have one more idea with the one above that could help with the scaling as well as a stronger start/more appealing to low-atk characters.

I'm getting pretty excited about all the tweaks we're going to be adding! I wish I could focus solely on that, lol. Our last month of development should actually be for the most part for "oops, we forgot that!" stuff and balance. So it'll be interesting I think :)

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Yeah, I understand that urge entirely. I have a bad habit of getting sidetracked in fixing numbers when on the other end if I let myself. :)

Certainly save at least the things that aren't easier tweaks for the end. Just wanted to write it in while I had the thought since it seemed like a strong alternative way of scaling and %s are always icky to balance. Since Fell Seal uses a more linear growth in stats, an equally linear style of scalar seems like an excellent alternative. 24 + Level on Doublehand (or maybe 28-30, Doublehand is a bit niche and has multiple drawbacks to account for) and and a more conservative 8-12 + Level on the Experts (depending on how high Doublehand goes) seem very "just right", in that regard.

[Teletubbies]

I think some of these comments lack some context. I don't have time to read everything posted here, but I did a quick search and no one's mentioned Pestilence yet. You suggest that Sturdy Grip is outright bad, but Dual Wield and Sturdy Grip using Pestilence in the first slot can multi-debuff and do some seriously respectable damage too. It's a bit glass cannon, and only useful if you're in range and aren't likely to be killed outright before you can remove yourself from enemy range, but it's decent damage and substantial debuffs in one attack.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by Maraxis:

You suggest that Sturdy Grip is outright bad, but Dual Wield and Sturdy Grip using Pestilence in the first slot can multi-debuff and do some seriously respectable damage too.

Dual Wield and Mauls as a combo was mentioned in discussion. It's a good combo but only two classes can use it - Mercenary and Gadgeteer. I said Sturdy Grip is great on the Mercenary who gets it for free and also has all of the equipment needed to get the maximum potential from it. My point was that Sturdy Grip sucks for everyone else, and that my proposed fix for it buffs it for everyone else, particularly those who don't use Dual Wield.

Yes, that interaction is strong, but it's an extension of Dual Wield's unique interactions with weapons with on-hit effects. Sturdy Grip is only involved because it's required to facilitate the interaction. It also relies on a treasure weapon that not every player will have found. Soul Armor doesn't make Equip Armor a good Passive, either. It just means that armor piece is overpowered to the point it overcomes the fact Equip Armor is mathematically worthless, should a player have both found the item and used it enough to understand how its mechanics work. This is no different than that - Dual Wield and Pestilence have an interaction so good that it becomes worth using the otherwise low-value Sturdy Grip to obtain it. Or, otherwise, be a Mercenary and get Sturdy Grip for free to do it with, especially since you'll also get Health Expert for free.

I'm not saying it's bad, but it's just lying to say "this combo is good, therefore Sturdy Grip is good."