Ideal roster size? Am I screwing myself by having few recruits on the bench?

[Jamers]

I'm at a point in the story where I have 4 story characters whom I'm bringing into every encounter, allowing me to play with and develop 2 non-story recruits on most maps. This leaves two recruits on the bench, one who is fairly well developed and another who's barely seen any action, but has been receiving "bench XP" since near the start of the game.

I know that a benefit of waiting to recruit until later on is that one can recruit at a higher level and that they'll gain stats according to their starting class, but when I tried this it seemed like the new recruits' overall AP development was very low. I read (in Conan's lovely guide) that recruits will receive an average of the six highest characters' AP in every class across the board at the time they're recruited, but might these characters be missing out on a lot of "bench XP"? In theory this sounds like a great system as it should allow for new recruits to "catch up" on the spot (assuming you spend more gold to get them at a higher level), but in my limited experience with this it seemed like my "simmering" recruit who had been benched almost for the entirety of the game had substantially more AP than the new recruits with higher levels.

Anyway, before pressing forward I'd just like to know if I should hire recruits and just let them sit or whether it's generally better to wait until the need arises so that I might benefit from a fresh recruit of a higher level.

I'll be posting again soon with a massive thank you as this game is absolutely amazing. Devs, you knocked it out of the park here!

Thanks for any input!

[Conan The Librarian]

Jamers-

Obviously just my thoughts (other may play differently) but what I tend to do is this:

Early game I will recruit 2 additional generic heroes. I tend to use one as a "physical / archer" type, and the other as a "support type" (Gambler, Gadgeteer, Peddler, etc). This means I have plenty of heroes for badge classes with them and the two generic hero mages you start with (Lana and Virgil). This also means I have a "bench" to work with when people get injured and I need to field alternate units. If you switch up who you use some and tailor what classes they're set to for benched AP when they're not active, they will have more AP than a freshly-recruited hero late game. In terms of EXP, honestly, it's pretty easy to work people up if they fall behind some given how exp scaling works (in terms of low level unit attacking higher level unit gains bonus exp). So yes, you CAN hire someone late game to "have the growths you want", but in comparison, they'll have less AP than someone who has been worked up throughout the game. Lastly, if you WANT to "mix-max" per se, you can work someone up throughout the game, then reset their level to 1 and quickly exp grind to get them the growths you want in whichever class(es) you want.

I'm sure others will list their opinions, but as always, feel free to ask questions.

[Tuidjy]

Experience is easy to get, not useful in itself, annoying when it makes you level in the wrong class and expensive to get rid of.

Action points are precious and hard to accumulate.

Early recruits, who sit on the bench, get APs.

Late recruits, who can be hired at high levels get experience.

Sound like a no-brainer, except for one caveat:

If your team is at level 99, you can recruit a guy who has ALL of its stat increases, in the EXACT class you want. That's very valuable, because you can grind the classes without poor level ups.

But if you are not the kind of guy who wants a team of perfect level 99s?

Hire 5 or 6 non-story characters now, and let them learn.

[Rynielz]

I find that the best time to recruit new units is at the very beginning and after level 30, anything in the middle will result in a low AP new unit, with almost no Skills/Abilities/Passives to work with. A nightmare to level up in terms of AP, especially if it is an Advanced or Top Jobs unit, it will be useless in fight.

That's why my favourite strategy is to hire immediately 7 recruits, using almost all money you start with.
4 of them will be "Pure Units" (Mage, Ranged, Melee and Support) and the others 3 "Hybrid Units".This means a 12 units roaster right off the bat which force me to do at least 2 battle every map, up to the first temple, to level all of 'em homogeneously.
But if you have a clear idea of what every unit will become, you can plan it from the start while having a very solid base to work with.

IE : all my magic units go for Mender 4 and Wizard 4, for Smart Casting, Mana Font and unlocks Adv. Jobs. (You can reach this stage in the first 3-4 Battle easily)
Then 1 will be a Druid, another one an Alchemystic, a Plague Doctor, a Pure Wizard and the last one a Mender. After that you will decide which one of them will go for the Top Jobs like Sorcerer and Warmage and the secondary Jobs. But all of them will be ready to combat at any given time, allowing you to deploy the best combination of units depending the circumstances.

This way you can take advantage of the Vicarious AP and the "50% AP for benched units" mechanics in order to reach insane amounts of AP already at level 30-ish.
At this point any new recruits will start with a fair amount of AP, making it viable right away.

It is a bit grindy maybe, but it worked out perfectly in my last playthrough. Ended up with a 25+ roaster just to try out new combinations.

[Chanye West]

Like someone else said, we're all different, but I personally have a total of 20 non-story recruits.
I sort of enjoy just trying out new team comps so I do a lot of patrols and come up with fun squad combos. So I built several teams around using 3-4 particular recruits for class/ability combos, while making sure I can counter teams I end up against without just healing through.

For me, playing every match like a game of chess where I can mix and match my pieces is the most fun part of the game, so I bought a new level 1 recruit every time I discovered a new class and immediately let them sit on the bench collecting AP for that new class while playing through the game, and it only cost 500g. Worth doing at least that, in my opinion.

[piemax]

The game scales enemies by your level (average level of your top 6) and not by AP. And higher level enemies get access to more advanced classes and more skills! So the worst thing is having high level characters with low AP, especially on higher difficulties where the enemies can have higher levels and more stats/level. So in a sense doing fewer patrols with a small squad is as sort of difficulty slider. I'd be tempted to try a minimal-hire no-patrol run on a lower difficulty, but that would make it impossible to get some of the chests and hard to get one of the classes.

[piemax]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Jamers-

Obviously just my thoughts (other may play differently) but what I tend to do is this:

Early game I will recruit 2 additional generic heroes.

Do I recall correctly that you play on Veteran to be able to give better feedback?
If so, what would you do on higher difficulties?

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by piemax:

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Jamers-

Obviously just my thoughts (other may play differently) but what I tend to do is this:

Early game I will recruit 2 additional generic heroes.

Do I recall correctly that you play on Veteran to be able to give better feedback?
If so, what would you do on higher difficulties?

Not entirely sure that I understand your question, but yes, I tend to play on Veteran. When it comes to "number of heroes", that comes down more to personal playstyle as opposed to some sort of "set-in-stone / objective" thing, so what I said is likely applicable to higher difficulties, however, I cannot 100% attest to that methodology working in those conditions.

[RavenOfRazgriz]

I like to do what Ryniel suggested, buying a bunch of units right off the bat at Level 1. I go with 10 (iirc) instead of 7 since it balances out later on, but the logic is that one group will deal with the story battles while the other characters form parties that do Patrols to obtain money, extra AP, handle the sidequest battles, etc. This keeps your main formation's levels low, which can be useful for a number of meta-reasons. These units are also, of course, the ones that tag-in on an as-needed basis when certain characters enter or leave the party, when deployment allows 7+ units, etc. Units that sit on the bench getting Vicarious AP from battles alongside the AP they get from idling outside of battles in their current class will pretty much always overshadow the AP a fresh recruit gets - both because you get more of it and because it can be applied with a lot more precision. I like this approach both because it's more long-term efficient and because it gives me extra units that I can use to make dedicated "builds" on and rotate around which unit is in the A-Team if I happen to get bored of my current mainline setup, without needing to worry if my units have enough AP available to be changing their roles.

EXP is cheap, so if these back-up units end up underleveled, a quick trip to Crossroads where they hit an ally that's current at the level you need them to reach will quickly get them to where you need them to be, so better to recruit early then take the 5-10 minutes to spam Level-Ups if you realize you've neglected them too much.

You, of course, don't need anywhere near that many units, though. As long as you bought two recruits (so your starter party goes from 5 to 7) you'll have all the units you'll need for the entire game - that is, you'll never find yourself in a scenario where the game asks you to deploy a unit but your party is out of members. But as to the question of when the best time to buy your units is - its always best right at the start. Being able to recruit on-Level is useful if you suddenly find yourself wanting to try a class but not on any of your current units, along with some other niche scenarios, though, so the function isn't necessarily pointless. But if your main concern is how much AP the unit has, recruiting early is always best.

[piemax]

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

I like to do what Ryniel suggested, buying a bunch of units right off the bat at Level 1. I go with 10 (iirc) instead of 7 since it balances out later on, but the logic is that one group will deal with the story battles while the other characters form parties that do Patrols to obtain money, extra AP, handle the sidequest battles, etc. This keeps your main formation's levels low, which can be useful for a number of meta-reasons. ..

right, and this seems essential on higher difficulties.I'm trying to decide which would be more fun for my post-release playthrough- lots of units, lots of patrrols, and hihgher difficulty, or stop just 2 extra recruits and then some sort of self-imposed limit on patrols but at Veteran. The problem is that 0 patrols will miss out on too much and I haven't yet thought of another bright line stopping point.

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by piemax:

right, and this seems essential on higher difficulties.I'm trying to decide which would be more fun for my post-release playthrough- lots of units, lots of patrrols, and hihgher difficulty, or stop just 2 extra recruits and then some sort of self-imposed limit on patrols but at Veteran. The problem is that 0 patrols will miss out on too much and I haven't yet thought of another bright line stopping point.

As a small suggestion: Try Veteran Difficulty with the Extra Enemies option of "Expert Mode", as this will significantly increase the challenge without needing to crank up pure + % stats. You could always just do that and "only the minimum number of patrols to obtain all the secrets / treasures".

[RavenOfRazgriz]

Originally posted by piemax:

right, and this seems essential on higher difficulties.I'm trying to decide which would be more fun for my post-release playthrough- lots of units, lots of patrrols, and hihgher difficulty, or stop just 2 extra recruits and then some sort of self-imposed limit on patrols but at Veteran. The problem is that 0 patrols will miss out on too much and I haven't yet thought of another bright line stopping point.

I wouldn't call it essential, but it certainly does offer an advantage. The one thing that really gets gained when playing this way that's more relevant than it seems is the money, really - when playing on high-enough settings, keeping units adequately equipped can be vitally important, as can being sure there's enough items held in the reserve (elemental weapons, anti-status accessories, etc.) to adapt as-necessary should an encounter be particularly difficult to deal with. Some Accessories are important enough that it's not unreasonable to buy something like 25 copies of them (Gauntlets, Wizard Gloves, Exo Gauntlets, and a few others immediately come to mind), and that can really strain the bank, as well.

It's plenty possible to get money without extra recruits, of course, but the reason its valuable is because playing on high settings naturally increases how much EXP each encounter yields by virtue of the fights being longer and/or having more units. So, the back-up party doing the grinding helps to serve as a cushion to prevent an EXP-spiral, since enemy units' levels determine the availability of their abilities / etc.

[piemax]

Originally posted by RavenOfRazgriz:

...
I wouldn't call it essential, but it certainly does offer an advantage. The one thing that
It's plenty possible to get money... plenty possible to get without extra recruits, of course, but the reason its valuable is because playing on high settings naturally increases how much EXP each encounter yields by virtue of the fights being longer and/or having more units. So, the back-up party doing the grinding helps to serve as a cushion to prevent an EXP-spiral, since enemy units' levels determine the availability of their abilities / etc.

right, and just like the scaling ignores your team's AP it also ignores your team's gear, so there is an incentive to get as much Ap and money as possible per character level.

[piemax]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

Originally posted by piemax:

right, and this seems essential on higher difficulties.I'm trying to decide which would be more fun for my post-release playthrough- lots of units, lots of patrrols, and hihgher difficulty, or stop just 2 extra recruits and then some sort of self-imposed limit on patrols but at Veteran. The problem is that 0 patrols will miss out on too much and I haven't yet thought of another bright line stopping point.

As a small suggestion: Try Veteran Difficulty with the Extra Enemies option of "Expert Mode", as this will significantly increase the challenge without needing to crank up pure + % stats. You could always just do that and "only the minimum number of patrols to obtain all the secrets / treasures".

Thanks. I'm thinking of things like this but 2 concerns. 1) Extra enemies means more XP /map and so hurts the AP/XP ratio, so I'm wondering about instead holding # enemiees at default and instead cranking up their stats or item use. 2) I haven't been able to come up with a version of "minimum number" that I'm satisfied with. Do you think max 2/map would work?

[Conan The Librarian]

Originally posted by piemax:

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

As a small suggestion: Try Veteran Difficulty with the Extra Enemies option of "Expert Mode", as this will significantly increase the challenge without needing to crank up pure + % stats. You could always just do that and "only the minimum number of patrols to obtain all the secrets / treasures".

Thanks. I'm thinking of things like this but 2 concerns. 1) Extra enemies means more XP /map and so hurts the AP/XP ratio, so I'm wondering about instead holding # enemiees at default and instead cranking up their stats or item use. 2) I haven't been able to come up with a version of "minimum number" that I'm satisfied with. Do you think max 2/map would work?

When I say "minimum number", I mean, "Do each story encounter and grab every possible treasure every time. For each treasure that you are unable to grab on the first time, ONLY do a patrol ONCE when you have the capability to grab that missed treasure".

I see your point about "extra enemies means extra exp", but as Raven mentioned, "higher difficulty = more exp" because fights take longer. Basically, as you scale up ANYTHING to make it more difficult, the battles are longer, so...I'm not really sure if "more enemies with some elites" will yield more exp compared to 10% / 15% stats etc.

[piemax]

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

For each treasure that you are unable to grab on the first time, ONLY do a patrol ONCE when you have the capability to grab that missed treasure.

If you go back to a map where you missed two do you have to get them both? And what about when you miss an obelisk clue or need a henge fragment? I know these are small issues but I prefer clear-cut rules. :)

Originally posted by Conan The Librarian:

I see your point about "extra enemies means extra exp", but as Raven mentioned, "higher difficulty = more exp" basically, as you scale up ANYTHING to make it more difficult, the battles are longer, so...I'm not really sure if "more enemies with some elites" will yield more exp compared to 10% / 15% stats etc.

Thanks, I'd missed that part of Raven's post.