The issue with how classes are unlocked

[Sombrero]

I like the game quite a bit in terms of gameplay, I was itching for some TRPG and I think Fell Seal is probably the best I've played since FFTA2 or the remake of Tactics Ogre.

With that being said I have some issues with the game and one in particular I find quite frustrating after some time.

Classes are unlocked like in many other games, you need X level in class A, B and C to get access to a said class for a character, ok that's fine by me.
The problem is that the evolution from one class to another sometimes feel really weird. By that I mean that you may want to master one class and specialize a character into doing one thing. For example I may want Virgil to fit the role of an offensive mage on my team. I want him to do as much damage as possible. So I make him master the Wizard class, so far so good. But then Virgil has unlocked Alchemystic thanks to his Wizard skills.
So I try out Alchemystic and you very quickly realize that it's a class most meant to buff allies and nothing else.
That really bothers me. Mostly because there is stat growth in the game so every level up my Virgil (or any other character obviously, this is just an example) he gets stats that I may not care much about. And after about 10 ish hours my Virgil still hasn't found a single secondary class that could fit his playstyle.

In previous games of the genre I never had that feeling of super heavy randomness with class unlocking. You mostly knew that if you were making a white mage he/she could easily find supportive classes to complement his/her playstyle later down the line, same for black mage and so on.

In Fell Seal it feels like you're playing the lottery on your first playthrough and some characters that are super strong early on become suddenly really terrible because they already mastered a class and can't find any other class completementing their playstyle. I used a Wizard example but it's far from being just the Wizard. Some classes like the Peddler, Gambler or others can clearly give good advantages but are also quite niche in their use.

I get that you can see in advance the "skill tree" and the stat growth as soon as you unlock the class. But that doesn't really solve the problem at all. Because I have mastered 2 to 3 classes on every of my party members and very few of them have mastered 2 classes that actually go well together and make for a decent build.

On top of that the way the passives and reaction skills are spread accross all the classes make that sometimes you really want that one counter an enemy used on you but you have no clue which class gives it so you have to manually unlock every class to finally figure out which it is, and then level that one character you want the skill on with all the classes needed to reach that class.

I like the concept of class unlocking but I feel it's being handled quite poorly in this game, and what's funny is that it is mostly because of how rich the class diversity is and how classes are good on their own. But when you start fighting enemies with good builds and your team is a bunch of guys with really random class combinations simply because you have no idea what all the classes are and you're still figuring out what does what you suddenly hit a difficulty spike caused by the most bizarre reason possible.

[Tuidjy]

Only tangentially related: Leveling in Alchemistic is a great way to achieve respectable speed, without neglecting casting power too much. There are classes that are horrible to level in. This is not one of them.

I immediately expanded my roster, and appointed characters meant to unlock classes and explore the class tree. I also had minmaxed characters... and to be honest, the 'unoptimized' characters did not end up useless at all. A bit less deadly once you go pass 20% on enemy stat bonuses, but still viable.

[Sombrero]

Yeah I guess an easy fix is to recruit tons of characters even at low level so they get reserve AP to specialize them.

I haven't looked much at all into min-maxxing, I'm playing the game as it comes I'm still discovering most of the possibilities. I am really not saying Alchemystic is a bad class or anything like that. It's just that very often you unlock a class that is playing or giving really different options compared to the class you were playing to unlock it in the first place.

[Dorok]

In my opinion it leads more to the question of the double role efficiency. Is a single role better or not. Single role looks like a min/max approach but the question remain.

Frankly, even if it's party of six, the global design should favour double role in my opinion. Perhaps it doesn't.

[Zinn]

The fundamental paradox in the system is that growing your *character* stats is tied to a seperate levelling mechanism than advancing your *class* skills, yet you MUST advance your classes to get the necessary skills and bonus stats to grow the *character* as you want to.

Even if you don't want to completely min/max (eg. max all classes, then reset and take levels by mathematical formula), it's almost certainly necessary to reset your characters to properly build them anyway. Randomly spread stats can get you through the game okay but specialising a character, even without being a munchkin, let's you do some amazing things. I think what we need is a better general direction for unlocking classes and skills in some areas. For instance, it makes perfect sense to go Mercenary -> Knight -> Templar for tanks but it can be a bit of a nightmare to unlock some of the advanced classes, even though they are needed for character growth. This is especially true because you can stack levels very quickly on a new character, so having to jump through a ton of hoops to get your *character* growth can be difficult.

It's also a problem that you lose access to your "starter" class if you hire an advanced class, such as a Sorcerer, and switch away from it since the Sorcerer is great for *character* growth but kinda sucks as a beginner class due to high spell costs. If you follow the conventional rules of the game, it can be a real pain to master a Sorcerer before going back to a Wizard since you won't have any backup skills.

From the game dev side, I think the conflict arises because some of the advanced classes have VERY overpowered passives if you're a bit creative and they want to limit access to them early on. However, this hurts the levelling aspects later in the game and I feel a good comprimise could be not losing the advanced "starter" class on a new character if you switch away from it. The true munchkins will master every class before resetting anyway, so it currently just hurts those of us who want a very specific thing.

[Taerdin]

To be honest this idea of playing the lottery with classes is the main factor that kept me from purchasing the game.

I'd prefer to have an upfront plan for how to make the story/unique characters specialised in what they were intended to be and then just use that. Randomly unlocking classes and guessing at whats good is not fun for me.

[Sombrero]

I got a bit further in and got that one story character that functions like a blue mage but much better.

Honestly I'm having a lot more fun with my party now, I start to have more functioning build, it still feels like I'm playing the lottery and it's even more aggravating with "secret" classes that have very vague descriptions.

But all in all I start to really have a lot of fun with character customization, I think the problem is lessened as you go on because then you start to have knowledge on most classes so you can rectify errors in your builds. But grinding is still very recommended to avoid feeling like your party is fighting with wet noodles.

[Dyer1981]

Just play the game and learn how the classes are unlocked? I'm not trying to be dismissive but making threads about how its tough to make 'optimal builds' in a game that just released seems a bit like jumping the shark to me. To each their own of course.

[Conan The Librarian]

Sombrero-

I would like to point out some things because I think people are a little mistaken in terms of how things go here:

1. The game is designed to incentivize trying out multiple classes and not just “master these two classes and I’m done with this hero’s learning”. Granted you CAN do that, but given how flexible the skill system is, you’re supposed to go around and explore what kind of cool options you have available. I want this skillset, this passive from over here, this passive from over here, and this counter. That’s PRECISELY how it’s supposed to be.

2. The way the unlock requirements are made is on purpose. No, it’s not as simple as “So I go from Wizard to Stronger Wizard to the Ultimate archmage or something” like that. Class progression has themes, but not something so simple as what I gave as an example. Instead, it has to do with TYPES of classes. Wizard / Mender are basic casters, Alchemystic / Plague Doctor more advanced, Druid builds along on top of some of that, etc (not saying for spoiler reasons). These are all mages and have a sensible progression. Not everything has to be “so damage to damage to damage” and “healing to healing to healing”, but it’s from “mage to mage to mage”. This principle applies also to the Martial (warrior) and Rogue-type classes as well, with a couple of “hybrid” options as well.

3. I would also like to point out it is NOT NECESSARY to reset a hero’s stats to make an effective hero. As long as you’re going through classes of same type, your hero should be perfectly fine. If you’re going from mage class to mage class you’re good. Yes, sometimes you may choose to go to a different kind for a minute to get something specific, but as long as you don’t linger elsewhere for super long, a level or two of “something else’s” growths should be no problem. That being said, you certainly CAN reset to lvl 1 if you really wanna “mix max” things, but please don’t feel that it’s “necessary” to do so to get good heroes.

4. Lastly, as alluded to already, if for some reason you “want to know what’s good / available” during your first playthrough—then consult sources! Go check out the wiki or perhaps a guide which lists requirements, depending on how much you want to know. https://fellseal.gamepedia.com/Classes But generally, part of the fun is “discovering things for yourself”.

I hope this helps and again, I would really like to dispel some of what’s been mentioned in this thread because I’d rather not people get confused on these subjects.

[Zinn]

But I already did, Dyer :D
I really love the game, it's great fun, but for a lot of people the tactical and strategic aspects are what gives the fun an extra notch. I don't just want some gunner, I want this gunner, with X passives, Y support skills and the stats to support it.

I can give you a simple example of a gunner build you can do but will probably require a reset of your character: A dual-wielding gunner that focuses on damage and regular attacks. Ignoring non-essential but super useful masteries, you almost need to master the Assassin for Dual Wielding passive and skillset, plus you'll want a good chunk of Scoundrel for the Attack Bonus passive. You'll also want a good bit of Ranger for the Countershot skill. These actually align fairly well, so you probably want to master all of them for relevant stat boosts (but not necessary for just getting from A to B). On top of that, I also use the secret Vampire class since levelling that gives you some good support skills, including one that lets you teleport. Pretty handy for a ranged class to ignore terrain on movement, right?

Even for this simplified build, we're looking at Mercenary 4 -> Knight 4 -> Scoundrel 6 -> Ranger 6 -> Gunner 4 -> Assassin 10 -> Wizard 4 -> Alchemyst 3 -> Vampire 6.

This is without considering other useful combinations, that mastery stats will help a lot and that you're currently pretty limited on skills. Even though this build focuses on normal attacks and damage output, skills are still extremely useful in a tactical game.

Meanwhile, the actual classes you'll want as character levels on this quick path are Assassin for speed and okay attack, Gunner for attack and HP and the secret class for pretty good overall stat growths for your purpose. You're therefore "wasting" all the experience levels you gain as Mercenary, Knight, Scoundrel, Ranger, Wizard and Alchemyst because their stat growths aren't suited for your purpose.

Of course, if you want to explore the right support skills or the best stat bonuses from masteries, you'll need to tack on quite a few more masteries and potentially classes depending on exactly what you want to achieve. The essential issue here is not that you gotta master a lot of stuff to fully optimize, it's that I can't just level through the classes I please after unlocking them but need to go through the entire cycle and having to reset.

Most games would probably have a path that goes Scoundrel -> Ranger -> Gunner -> Assassin to give me 2/3 options for quick character growth and then later let me unlock the secret one. Going through some hoops for a good growth secret class with special skills is fine, I could just juggle Assassin and Gunner if I really wanted to optimize anyway. It's more that there are seemingly random detours into Knight and Mercenary, despite not having passives or support skills that really link up with the Gunner. It's only the Scoundrel and Ranger that do.

[Conan The Librarian]

Zinn-

And I see some of your point on that, but honestly it would be kind of a lackluster class tree if everything was so “one-dimensional” in the progression. Also, for sake of discussion, 1. Going through other “physical classes” such as Mercenary / Knight to get Gunner is no issue because they’re still “attack” focused classes. 2. Check out how many good skills can be used at “range = weapon” on the Merc and Knight. These pair well with the far range of guns and bow / crossbows. Those Merc debuff move / [Stunning Strike] are range = weapon. Knight’s [Heavy Hit] and [One for All] are also good candidates. 3. I mean, everyone talks about “Gun for All” which involves using Knight’s [One for All]. Basically, if you’re not seeing the connection of usefulness between the various classes, you should try looking at each skillset and asking “how can this pair with other things?”

[Dorok]

Originally posted by Taerdin:

To be honest this idea of playing the lottery with classes is the main factor that kept me from purchasing the game.

I'd prefer to have an upfront plan for how to make the story/unique characters specialised in what they were intended to be and then just use that. Randomly unlocking classes and guessing at whats good is not fun for me.

I don't see the difference with FFT.

This "lottery" is a pure player choice, check all available classes beside those special, their dependencies, their attributes increase at each level up, their different type of abilities (counter, passive, active) and it's no lottery, but something very complex. You don't need read a true guide, only the classes description and if there's no dependency tree available, you can do one basic on a paper or something.

About the necessity of hyper optimizing, I don't know, I read it a bit too often, not hyper optimizing but optimizing significantly. But at what difficulty level and what grinding isn't clear.

If you never tried any game using such class system, it worth a try. To start discover this sub genre this game doesn't look a more bad choice than FFT or Tactics Ogre (haven't tried other with such system).

[Mechalibur]

Also remember that vicarious AP is a thing in the game. When you list out all the requirements, it can look like a lot, but often times you don't even need to worry about a good chunk of the stepping stone classes. In my case, all my casters have 5 abilities mastered in mercenary despite never even going to the class once, so I'd never need to worry about them having to hit Mercenary 4 for gunner.

And even if you switch to a completely different role (in your example you had wizard moving to alchemystic), you can still use wizard spells as your secondary ability. An alchemystic isn't really any worse at the job than a wizard, but you'd also have some support abilities to use when blasting isn't needed or efficient. It's not like you need to be in alchemystic for that long anyway - if I recall you only need 3 abilities in it to unlock druid.

[Zinn]

The main problem here is that Heavy Hit is pretty underwhelming until later in the game where you've already gone through the hoops, unless it was buffed in the latest patch. Even "random" builds can regularly hit for the 30-50 damage you usually get out of it by just not hitting characters in the face. Stunning Strike more or less exists as Slow on the Gunner, not to mention the absurdly useful and well made skill tree he has in general, so I consider that a moot point.

I'll give you that One For All has some handy exploit potential but that also requires you to go even further in the Knight tree. The entire issue is that there's a disconnect between character level and class level, where I have to go through quite a lot of the latter to obtain what I need for the former. Granted, I probably could have a character stand in a corner by itself in every battle and not interact with the game for however many hours it takes to get the necessary AP for the various unlocks but that's hardly fun and engaging gameplay.

The entire reason why I advocate for less of a cycle once classes are unlocked is because I very much do understand the skill combinations and I just want something that works with the build I want to make. I have no plans for Heavy Hit in my build, my build already does damage far exceeding the usefulness of that skill with the tactics I have in mind so why must I obtain it? And sure, the Knight and Mercenary do have decent enough Attack but there's a damn good reason why I chose Dual Wield, so that aspect is fully covered. However, the 0,8 Speed on Mercenary and Knight sees snails speeding past them and that's not what I'm looking for in a ranged character.

I want to build a character with relatively unrestricted movement options, hence the secret class, and I want it to be fast. It needs to make surgical strikes wherever and whenever I want to and slapping some character for 50%+ of its HP across the map is a good start. It's a huge credit to the game that I want to make such a character because it means I take the tactics seriously and have found a niche to elevate the gameplay.

In the end, it boils down to the fact that I have most things unlocked by now and I want to build my team properly. This means not taking a ton of levels in classes I don't need to because I've gone from being a generalist to being a specialist and there's a big gap between the two. Before, my team was more or less "whatever seems fun/useful" and now it's time to create something very specific to follow the tactics I find the most fun to use. This is also where the roster will expand further, since there may be battles where I need multiple healers, multiple casters and so on. Huge game events are coming up and I need to be prepared, rather than grinding through unnecessary elements.

[Mechalibur]

I can understand that. Part of it is really just balance - if you got all the tools needed right away, the first part of the game could pretty easily be trivialized. Things like elemental mastery or dual wield being available early on could pretty easily break the early game.

But, if that's not an issue for you, the game files are pretty easily adjusted. If you search "AP Gains" in the game options folder, you can adjust the parameters for how much AP is provided for each encounter. You also have the option of changing the prerequisites for classes in the "Jobs" xml folder. And finally, you can always just modify your save files directly to add AP directly to whatever classes you want. I've done that a few times for testing purposes, and it works pretty well.

[MTaur]

It's a little unpleasant that you have to choose between growth and having an optimized loadout. I have a character whose skills, passives, and equipment depend heavily on which primary class they are, and this character cannot gain active AP anymore. Which means no more class mastery bonuses. It's ok I guess and I should just finish the game already, but I prefer un-linking level-ups from your actual loadout. It's not necessarily a bad design, but you do have to live with some discomfort and instabilitiy.