Shuffle Key Items might be broken

[ATG]

EDIT: i really had 2 incompletable seeds back-to-back. the first one just dropped ALL keys for me, meaning that zangetsuto and bromide were in den of behemoths / ice caves, and therefore unreachable. seed is 1,167,255,424 i double checked.

[Tatsuya]

3 runs here, also tried it without shuffling key items only keeping them in key item spots, and still didn't get either, yeah it's broken, had more dead runs than finished ones.

[Tuddywutwut]

I did an All Bosses run with Shuffled Key Items and I guess I just got lucky cause I got both Zangetsuto and the Bromide by the end. Never got double jump though. Sadly I don`t remember where I got the drops but they didn't come from any crafting. My seed was #750,329,856.
Edit: Checked my enemy info and neither were in the drop tables. They either came from chests or freestanding items.

[ATG]

edit: the below is wrong, zangetsuto & bromide ARE key items, "shuffle" is enough to set:

I read elsewhere that zangetsuto (and probably also bromide) is not treated as a key item and can drop anywhere if item drops are set to "chaos", regardless of what the key item setting is. If this is true, that sucks, because it means to have a reasonable run without hours of farming, you need to limit key items to "shuffle" AND item drops to "retain method" now.

[76561198813514969]

Originally posted by ATG:

I read elsewhere that zangetsuto (and probably also bromide) is not treated as a key item and can drop anywhere if item drops are set to "chaos", regardless of what the key item setting is. If this is true, that sucks, because it means to have a reasonable run without hours of farming, you need to limit key items to "shuffle" AND item drops to "retain method" now.

Don't mind, did that anyways. They do need to however make every option actually fun tho, can't just have options no one will play cause they make for unbeatable seeds sometimes.

[ATG]

EDIT: the below assumes "retain item logic" is needed for zangetsuto & bromide to appear correctly, which is wrong - "shuffle key items" is enough, but is currently broken.
the list is useful anyway.
"shuffle key items" can generate seeds where both bromide and zangetsuto are in den of behemoths / ice caverns together, making the game incompletable.




i just completed a "shuffle key items" & "items: retain logic" run. This looks like it is the best option for now for people who do not want to grind endlessly.
With "retain", you can find bromide & zangetsuto anywhere a key could drop (celeste, carpenter etc.) and from bosses (zangetsu2 & twin dragon).
These are the locations you have to check in a run with these settings (this should be complete i hope):

Dian Cecht
Craftwork (Key Shard)
Key Chest (normally contains Carpenter's Key, very top right)
Bloodless (Key Shard)

Tower of Twin Dragons
Valac (Key Item)

Livre Ex Machina
Andrealphus (Key Shard)

Hall of Termination
Key Chest (normally contains Celeste's Key, secret room @ very top)

Forbidden Underground Waterway
Deeseama (the squid enemy, Key Shard)

Hidden Desert
Room below Alfred (Key Shard)

Underground Sorcery Lab
Bathin (Key Shard)

Inferno Cave
Orobos (Key Shard)

Oriental Sorcery Lab
Zangetsu (Key Item)

Den of Behemoths
Key Chest (normally contains Millionaire's Key, top big room)

Glacial Tomb
Key Chest (normally contains Warhorse's Key, top-left)
Gremory (Key Shard)

[ATG]

turns out "shuffle key items" is enough to place zangetsuto & bromide, however, the seed i mentioned in the first post is incompletable because the logic apparently placed zangetsuto & bromide @ den of behemoths & ice caves. found this by method of elimination, i have all other keys in my inventory.

[Washing Machine]

Think my run ended with the same situation, I got all the keys to the backer boss chambers, and I've cleared pretty much every nook of the map. No Zang or Brom. Can't finish I guess, rip.

Shame, since I like the full random idea, having to limit key items into boss rooms only removes a lot of the fun from it.

[Gemini]

Did you try checking the chest that normally contains the Aegis Armor in the Twin Dragon Towers? I think that counts as a key item spot as well.

[ATG]

aegis armor is not a key item. that chest can contain anything.

[steep_chesterfield]

I was able to get Zangetsuto extremely early on, and the Bromide came shortly after. But I'm still waiting on the Double Jump skill and I'm at the Den of Behemoths, and it took an extremely long time to get the Helping Hand skill which is necessary for further map exploration (most notably the first tower in the Entrance section).

The randomizing of key items is something I'll likely not do again, as it doesn't seem to add much to the overall gameplay.

However, the randomizing of crafting items is nuts! I've never spent so much on Alkahest before. It totally sucks for actually crafting items, but when you break them down you can get some seriously game breaking gear early on! <3

[Washing Machine]

Originally posted by steep_chesterfield:

The randomizing of key items is something I'll likely not do again, as it doesn't seem to add much to the overall gameplay.

Pretty sure it considers the shard abilities like Double Jump and Dimension Shift keys if you turn it into logical, those drop off bosses (still in sort of a random pattern though, so you can get Reflector Ray from Andrea before you have Double Jump). But it sort of also means you don't get anything too crazy early I guess, I got Craftwork from the hand boss, so, it feels really like a normal run but with endgame equipment accessible early. Not much of a randomizer then imo.

I still find it a lot of fun when it gives me reason to explore the whole map and try to farm every enemy for shards to see if it's something busted really early (although I'd prefer if shard drop rates were increased, it's really tedious to spend 5-10mins on an enemy to see what it has). Finally got a full rando where got both Zange and Dimension early, so it's already in the bag.

[DishSoap]

That's kind of funny considering the chest with the Knife & Kung Fu Boots is considered a key item but not Zangetsuto and Silver Bromide. Also seems like any items that NPCs give you is considered a "key item".
You can check this this out by using Retain Type and opening the first chest on the Galleon, it will always give you a handful of items.

[Washing Machine]

I was pretty sure it's not a key item when I beat Zangetsu 2 and he rewarded me after the dialogue with 50 gold.

[MKGDX]

Having the same issue with seed "816,341,936" Been everywhere, killed everything and can't find bromite or zangetsuto anywhere.
Edit: also the ID for that checkpoint would help too

[Doctor Cursed]

Found another way you can get an unbeatable scenario. Not having craftwork or dimension shift and not being able to get to Zangetsu when the Zangetsuto is randomized with him. LOL... I've been getting too many unlucky RNG.