Zangetsu DLC

[Zen]

Look internet. I get it. It's too much to say this game is ruined forever because of this DLC. My initial review for this game stands. I like it. It's good. Better than good, an advancement on SOTN. overall I think this game is perhaps needing a balance overhaul in the mid/late-game but is otherwise excellent.

Captures SOTN and its feeling almost exactly.

That being said... Holy mother of God, Buddha, Zeus, and all other deities, did they phone this DLC in. There's been months of radio-silence for...This. People are saying "oh this doesn't ruin this experience". But that belies the issue doesn't it? If you ♥♥♥♥ on your own product after releasing it in a very real and quantifiable sense you are depreciating the market value of that product. This is a very tangibly bad thing for their brand. It implies an inability to deliver reliably on products. I personally will eye this developer with suspicion after this and I'm sure others will too.

I honestly would've preferred if they did not release this mode. I would've been sad if they said "look with the whole Switch situation we cannot meet our promises", but not unforgiving. I got what I paid for at the end of the day.

This DLC is bad. Unbalanced, simplified... and hell, I couldn't even access it initially without finishing the game a second time.

Just wow.

Please tell me I'm being unreasonable. I really hope I am.

[⛧NecRoBile⛧]

Originally posted by Learned Hand:

Cool, you're an entitled cry baby, good for you.

Low expectations from someone with low standards. Of course that's all you got to say.

Originally posted by NexusNemesis:

I still don't even know what the Zangetsu mode is for..... I am an hour in and have beat a few bosses.... there is no inventory or items... but there's money for some reason... what is the point of this mode? if someone can please explain that to me in a proper fashion.... because for now, it just seems like a waste of time to me.

Y'know, that was one of the first things I noticed as well. It didn't make a lick of sense to me to pick up coins. If there's no gear, no items, nothing to spend the money on, then why not just turn everything into mana roses??

I guess you could use it as a scoring system, see how much money you accumulate before you beat the game, but that's also stupid because you could just farm rooms over and over to increase it, doing nothing for actual scoring purposes.

It's just a half-assed cop out given to us so they can state that they kept their promise. Technically they did, but not in a good way.

Originally posted by InstableMonster:

I'd say if you are ok with waiting 11months for what modders do in other games in less time, budget and staff. That is you, other people actually expect promises and things that were supposed to be in at launch to not be rushed when it took this long for it to come to the game.

Some people have low standards. I guess that's a great way to make sure you're never disappointed.

[ZAP]

I like it. It's cool for picking up for a quick play now, shred with Zangetsu and hit up areas that are late game and try to survive.

[sere]

This was THE opportunity to create a true alternate playable character experience. Richter modes were always included upon release. Zangetsu mode was surrounded by language and a long delay from which almost any player could infer that things had changed. I think people are completely justified expecting an alternate playable character to now finally come with the alternate perspective and narrative.

Not everyone has the life experience of constantly getting burned by expectations. Bloodstained was all over the place on which expectations it could deliver upon, though. It's a shame the alternate playable character was where we should have guarded our expectations rather than become so hopeful. Warming up to the hype and allowing ourselves to misconstrue the delay as a reason to become giddy and excited... That delay was not time spent fleshing out the quality of Zangetsu mode like I had dared to believe; and count me as one of the fools who has the life experience with plenty of burned expectations. However, Igarashi is obviously sincere but his optimism and number of promises can't entirely survive the nature of business. The conditions surrounding the development of this game were not the worst but... still, providing a happy ending for everybody was going to be a longshot.

It should have been safe to believe that Zangetsu was going to be more than just another Richter, Julius, or Albus. Circumstances were definitely suggesting this. Somehow, Zangetsu mode ended up being even just slightly less than each of the three. Richter, Julius, and Albus all felt and played like "touching afterthoughts" but Zangetsu was billed as a "deliberate undertaking". Whoops!

In short, I am disappointed yet not too overly upset. A very satisfying and strong main experience has had, 11 months later, its periphery marred by a colossal missed opportunity.

[lPaladinl]

I just never liked Richter Modes so I wasn't expecting much. I think Richter Mode is cool as an idea, though.

Zangetsu mode does feel lazier though, mostly because of the lack of story changes. Zangetsu fighting Zangetsu is just... odd.

I'm more disappointed with this randomizer. People make better randomizers in their free time as passion projects for tons of games and when a studio tries to do it with hundreds of thousands of kickstarter bucks they can barely get half of the common features included and hardly anything is randomized.

It's better than nothing but it's not saying much. I can enjoy a much better randomizer experience with Symphony of the Night right now than what is offered in Bloodstained.

If they keep working on it and expand the options I would be very happy about that, but I'm not expecting them to do so.

[76561198813514969]

Wow, all y'all is the definition of goofy. Iga is clearly just trying to make his game as true to the OG Igavania's as possible, including a Richter like game mode. And how tf does an optional gm make a game worse. Maybe the perception of people for a dev changes, sure, but just saying the game is trash now is wack, seeing that we also got a fire Rando mode to balance out the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.


Tldr ya'll ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

[Shylaar]

Originally posted by Xx$HMIRKOxX:

Wow, all y'all is the definition of goofy. Iga is clearly just trying to make his game as true to the OG Igavania's as possible, including a Richter like game mode. And how tf does an optional gm make a game worse. Maybe the perception of people for a dev changes, sure, but just saying the game is trash now is wack, seeing that we also got a fire Rando mode to balance out the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.


Tldr ya'll ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ :dcshocked:

If you tried reading the thread you might understand people's perspectives. It's also hard to compliment the randomiser when they didn't even make sure it doesn't softlock you when randomising shards.

[Yoinkyz]

well keep this up and we wont get the rest

[76561198813514969]

Originally posted by Shylaar:

Originally posted by Xx$HMIRKOxX:

Wow, all y'all is the definition of goofy. Iga is clearly just trying to make his game as true to the OG Igavania's as possible, including a Richter like game mode. And how tf does an optional gm make a game worse. Maybe the perception of people for a dev changes, sure, but just saying the game is trash now is wack, seeing that we also got a fire Rando mode to balance out the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.


Tldr ya'll ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥

If you tried reading the thread you might understand people's perspectives. It's also hard to compliment the randomiser when they didn't even make sure it doesn't softlock you when randomising shards.

I read everything but I was waiting in front of the store cause I wasn't allowed to go in with my gf, so I was just wasting 4G typing this stuff cause I was bored.

But I get where y'all coming from tho, it's just that personally I was expecting something else, but when we got this ♥♥♥♥, I was like 'ok yeah that makes sense', so I'm not really mad at Iga for this ♥♥♥♥, and just kinda accept it.

Also yeah lol the randomizer will get a bit tweaked soon hopefully, but I still enjoy it for what it's worth.

[Melodia]

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

I'm more disappointed with this randomizer. People make better randomizers in their free time as passion projects for tons of games and when a studio tries to do it with hundreds of thousands of kickstarter bucks they can barely get half of the common features included and hardly anything is randomized.

The difference is the fan made randos are done over years of development and testing by many many outsider people.I guarantee if you looked at the original release of LTTP rando it'd be no where near the level Bloodstained's is.

[76561198813514969]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

I'm more disappointed with this randomizer. People make better randomizers in their free time as passion projects for tons of games and when a studio tries to do it with hundreds of thousands of kickstarter bucks they can barely get half of the common features included and hardly anything is randomized.

The difference is the fan made randos are done over years of development and testing by many many outsider people.I guarantee if you looked at the original release of LTTP rando it'd be no where near the level Bloodstained's is.

Agreed, but they at least need to fix the fact that people have impossible seeds or make it a bit more fun to use chaotic settings by making crucial items drop from baddies immediately.

[Kazzfire]

after playing castlevania Harmony of Despair i really feel this add on was lazy. Iga claims to be the father of this style of game and he does it like a father would, lazy.

[lPaladinl]

Originally posted by Xx$HMIRKOxX:

Wow, all y'all is the definition of goofy. Iga is clearly just trying to make his game as true to the OG Igavania's as possible, including a Richter like game mode. And how tf does an optional gm make a game worse. Maybe the perception of people for a dev changes, sure, but just saying the game is trash now is wack, seeing that we also got a fire Rando mode to balance out the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.


Tldr ya'll ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ :dcshocked:

Yeah this randomizer is "fire" alright. It's a flaming heap of barely anything.

I play randomizers all of the time and it just saddens me that a studio that accepted money explicitly to make this mode has provided us with something with far less quality, features and content than what people do in their free time as fan/passion projects without payment.

I can only assume they will not be continuing work on it in the future to expand the features because they haven't stated anything about expanding what we've got so far, and it is the bare bones of a randomizer.

Originally posted by Melodia:

Originally posted by lPaladinl:

I'm more disappointed with this randomizer. People make better randomizers in their free time as passion projects for tons of games and when a studio tries to do it with hundreds of thousands of kickstarter bucks they can barely get half of the common features included and hardly anything is randomized.

The difference is the fan made randos are done over years of development and testing by many many outsider people.I guarantee if you looked at the original release of LTTP rando it'd be no where near the level Bloodstained's is.

Depends on the randomizer and when the devs for them decided to release them. Artplay had an entire year to release this randomizer mode and it's still less than what some people put out for free in a year for other games.

[Blackgenma]

I think the backlash over the Zangetsu mode is overblown. As others mention, it was to be expected that the 2nd playable character would be a far more stripped down, action arcade experience as per previous Iga titles. Someone already said they went back to the kickstarter campaign pitch and noted that there were no additional promises made about this 2nd playable character outside of the character itself. I understand why people want more, but I think it's fair to say their scope of expectations and disappointment are disproportionate.

As for the design of Zangetsu's campaign (and the various "Richter modes" before it) It heavily downplays the RPG elements of these metroidvanias and adds a lot more emphasis on pure action and skill. It's even more stripped down from previous Iga titles because there are no health ups or weapons to collect (in curse of darkness, Trevor could collect various whips). To this end, I think the mode is good: Zangetsu' move list is versatile and in many respects, overpowered, yet he is substantially more limited in scope compared to Miriam. Exploring and fighting enemies has a purpose because there are still HP up and MP up items on the map and Zangetsu levels up. Most of the areas Zangetsu can't reach have been modified to solve his mobility issues. there's one goofy stranded HP up he can't reach, which was really sloppy of the team to leave on the map, but that's the only real blemish I came across in the play through. Now when you fight a boss, you have to get familiar with the boss pattern and learn how to dodge and punish. You can't mash down forward attack on all of them (unfortunately you can on most of them though). I still came across some challenge on hard mode. It's probably even more engaging on nightmare mode.

The team was nice enough to give us an exclusive boss at the end with some voiced dialogue to go with it. They reused assets, but it's a unique boss fight nonetheless. It's a nice way to cap off the campaign.

Ideally, what we would have gotten would be an alternate retelling of the main campaign, like the shovel knight game did for its alternate characters. Designing modeling and animating new enemies as well as new environments costs money and time, and I think the development team is already stretched for resources as it is, especially with how they botched the switch release (something I think is actually worthy of heavy criticism.). So the most likely fully fleshed out scenario we could have possibly gotten was a retelling, like Plague knight received in shovel knight. I'm indifferent to the prospect, because I like what we got.

I don't have much to say on random mode. It's a nifty replay option. It's a shame the team couldn't deliver on their original pitch and had to down play it to item drops and related features. I think there's enough items in the game to make it interesting for replay value.

As for the extended development time, This was probably a planned to an extent. Most of Zangetsu mode was already completed upon the game's release: as proven by game hacks. Just two bosses were incomplete. They planned to release the random mode and Zangetsu at the same time to give the update more weight. This coincides with the Two crowns Dead Lands DLC that features Bloodstained characters, giving the franchise some additional visibility (and helping out Two Crowns, which seems like a trash game to me so I'm not touching it). This was all coordinated to remind people "Hey, this game still exists and we're putting out new content for it."

Overall, I don't see why someone would think the game was worse because of this additional content they said they were going to put out. Maybe it's not something you would find entertaining, but they didn't lie and the modes work pretty well (Yeah, you can generate busted seeds in random modes if you go nuts with it. lives up to it's name: random drops). I'm looking forward to the 3rd character (my money is on it being a similar experience to Zangetsu) and I hope they don't end up cutting any of the promised content.

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by Melodia:

Shovel Knight took FIVE YEARS for all of the stretch goals to be implemented. I don't remember anyone kicking up a storm about that.

shovel knight made a multiplayer spin off game, and 4 verisons of th same game with radically change characters, movesets, NPCS, heck even the hub was entirely unique to each character.
And king of cards.. lol, if you haven't played them, then mayb you can try to wring out poor Yacht.
Truth be told, 5 years on 5 VERY DISTINCT AND POLISHED GAMES is far better than the pile of crap Iga left on our doorstep.

[TemmieNeko]

Originally posted by Blackgenma:

As for the extended development time, This was probably a planned to an extent. Most of Zangetsu mode was already completed upon the game's release: as proven by game hacks. Just two bosses were incomplete. They planned to release the random mode and Zangetsu at the same time to give the update more weight. This coincides with the Two crowns Dead Lands DLC that features Bloodstained characters, giving the franchise some additional visibility (and helping out Two Crowns, which seems like a trash game to me so I'm not touching it). This was all coordinated to remind people "Hey, this game still exists and we're putting out new content for it."

^ Clipped one seciton of your rant to make a point.
That horrible game, Two Crowns, with the " this isn't a desperate attempt at gaining some visibility " DLC - goes hand in hand with the " whoops, all forgotten promises DLC of Bloodstained "
The onyl thing they planned on was spending the cash they made form the game,
Ppl keep saying KICKSTARTER MONEY THIS, PUBLISHER MONEY THAT.
did anyone think to the fact this game STILL COSTS MONEY TO BUY? xD
Add that salt to the wound of leaving us twisting in the wind while they botch Switch, and ( for reasons still unknown ) balancing a single player game.


two crowns is a wretched bore, and I find it very : cash grabby : of both Iga team, and them to utilize Miriam as a way to secure sales for both.
Neither game as a LICK of common ground lol. this is liek adding MIriam to Animal crossing.
It just illustrates that the team is out of the money they were funded with, wasted all the cash they earned from sales ) or more likely, paid themselves with ) and then used the reamining couch change to poop out the 80% finished 2nd character ( ad you already pointed out, was there on day 1 _)


whoopee! they " added " a boss :D
worth a year, worth wasting backer's money, and worth losing respect as a game dev team .

this isn't an indie team, idc if they're new = this is the guy that has literally been the face of what a modern metroidvania is today.
If even HE can't make good on backer rewards, then why evenbother?
alo the randomized mode is a complete crap shoot - they did Eff-All to ensure every run can actually be completed.


what a horrendous waste of time.
stop defending this garbage.