Sprite Animation VS Fluid 3D Animation

[DOUBLE F]

something feels to floaty about the animation. It doesnt have that same rapid snappy animation that castlevania and sprite based games have. I wonder what it would look like if they rendered the characters and made sprites out of them.

[MrDjinn]

To me game still looks cheap even with the graphical overhaul they did some time ago.

The problem is 3D assets are much easier to make than good 2D, because all you need to make is the 3D model and texture, then you can rig it and animate all you want. And even if you want to update it later it's easy because you can just fiddle with an existing model and animations will still be rigged. With 2D you need to draw frame by frame and any upgrade or change will have to be done to all frames of animation.
Retro looking or minimalistic 2D like Shovel Knight and Hollow Knight can be done quite easly, but something like Odin Sphere or Dust: An Elysian Tail took far more effort and even then Dust doesn't have a lot of detail, while Odin Sphere has some choppy animations.

But I still struggle to come up with any 3D graphics 2D platformer that looked better than above mentioned traditional 2D ones.

For people like you and me the question is how the gameplay itself will feel like and if the controls will feel responsive and combat/platforming satisfying enough to ignore the graphics.

[Erebus]

Originally posted by MrDjinn:

But I still struggle to come up with any 3D graphics 2D platformer that looked better than above mentioned traditional 2D ones.

Because handcrafted pixel art is gorgeous, it's just obscenely expensive as the resolution and assets go up.

On the plus side though 3D allows for transformations and other manipulations which aren't possible with sprite based assets. Idk if IGA and co. did so but you can do some crazy stuff tweaking shaders and applying effects.

[MrDjinn]

Shaders and other effects can also be applied to 2D objects to achieve some cool effects. See Starcraft Remaster.

And while you refer to pixel art as gorgeous when done right - and I agree - there is a clear distinction between pixel art graphics like the one in Shovel Knight and hand-drawn (or painted) CG like in Dragon's Crown. That game does not use pixel art, which is usually done as the name implies - pixel by pixel. Instead they use high quality handcrafted drawings made by a very talented artist, George Kamitani. His style is unmistakable and he brings Vanillaware games to life.

But that takes a lot of time and $$$

[Erebus]

Originally posted by MrDjinn:

Shaders and other effects can also be applied to 2D objects to achieve some cool effects. See Starcraft Remaster.

And while you refer to pixel art as gorgeous when done right - and I agree - there is a clear distinction between pixel art graphics like the one in Shovel Knight and hand-drawn (or painted) CG like in Dragon's Crown. That game does not use pixel art, which is usually done as the name implies - pixel by pixel. Instead they use high quality handcrafted drawings made by a very talented artist, George Kamitani. His style is unmistakable and he brings Vanillaware games to life.

But that takes a lot of time and $$$

I don't think the handdrawn aesthetic would really fit the gothic spiritual successor to castlevania though either. It's almost better for more cartoon themes and aesthetics.

Originally posted by MrDjinn:

Shaders and other effects can also be applied to 2D objects to achieve some cool effects. See Starcraft Remaster.

There is kind of a division between a 2D object and well the old Castlevanias. Drawing a blank on some of the terms. "3D" assets allow for the most manipulations with the least expense and least amount of assets created to do it. You can apply a crystaline effect or really anything to the environment on the fly if you wanted. Reflections and such too. If they capitalized on the graphical style their budget limited them to we might see some neat usages. Depending on how creative they got with things.

[Techim]

Originally posted by MrDjinn:

But I still struggle to come up with any 3D graphics 2D platformer that looked better than above mentioned traditional 2D ones.

I have tried a range of platformers since I got on Steam, and alas, that is mostly true.
I tried Mighty No 9. It was meh. Megaman 11, was ironically better.

Some indie metroidvanias that got my attention was Momodora : Reverie Under The Moonlight, and Touhou Luna Nights. The spritework and gameplay was pretty good for indie standards. Then again, they are on a much smaller scope than Bloodstained ROTN, so I guess they could focus their budget and effort into more polishing before release day.

[DOUBLE F]

im not saying all objects. just render out the characters in 3d and make sprites out of the animations

[Junker-2047-]

You can make 3D models in a 2D setting look amazing, this game just failed at it. That's a big part of the game to fail if you're going to ask for $40 USD.

This is a $20 game to me and that is based wholly on the gameplay videos I have seen thus far. This game could be SOTN caliber gameplay-wise but the aesthetics come off cheap and not at the $40 level. 2D hand-drawn art is better, it is more expensive, and I am programmed to recognize that and spend $$$ on beautiful 2D games. I know I am not the only one.

The price will probably hurt them in the long run because when it finally gets down to where I feel it's worth I'm going to want a steep sale for an old game - $5 - $10.

[MrDjinn]

Originally posted by Junker-2047-:

You can make 3D models in a 2D setting look amazing

For example?

And let's stick to same-ish genre which is 2D platformers since saying something like Guilty Gear Xrd wouldn't be fair I feel.

[Junker-2047-]

There are tons of examples, most of which I don't know about. Some of these were created with minimal staff. Also note the price tags and reviews on these games. Off the top of my head:

Great video on the process:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m8lOwrWNbEY

https://store.steampowered.com/app/387290/Ori_and_the_Blind_Forest_Definitive_Edition/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/366320/Seasons_after_Fall/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/460700/Song_of_the_Deep/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/35700/Trine_Enchanted_Edition/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/35720/Trine_2_Complete_Story/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/690640/Trine_4_The_Nightmare_Prince/

A game like Dust, for example, was made almost entirely by one guy over 4 years. Hand drawn and animated, proving that where there is a will there is a way:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/236090/Dust_An_Elysian_Tail/

[MrDjinn]

I asked for examples of games with 3D graphics.

The only games you list that I'm sure have 3D assets are Trine 1/2. I haven't played Song of the Deep, but it does look like it has 3D assets too.

Trine graphics are ok. The aesthetic fits and it can look very nice sometimes with it's lighting, but the character models - especially enemies - lack detail. Song of the Deep on the other hand looks kind of underwhelming in my opinion.

All other games you list - Ori and Seasons and my beloved Dust are 2D only.

Good catch with Trine though, I totally forgot this game existed. I still don't think it looks any better than all the 2D games you mentioned though.

[edit]
I just clicked through the video you linked and it does seem to have 3D assets, but I also read somewhere that ingame there are no 3D models at all. I guess the devs used 3D models to make sprites out of them if that's true. And if I'm wrong and it really is 3D on a 2D plane then... sure, then Ori is a good example that it can be done right.

[Junker-2047-]

Originally posted by MrDjinn:

I asked for examples of games with 3D graphics.

The only games you list that I'm sure have 3D assets are Trine 1/2. I haven't played Song of the Deep, but it does look like it has 3D assets too.

These games are using 3D assets that are turned into 2D sprites. He goes into detail on the topic at 9:50 into the video. Everything is an animated 3D object turned into a 2D sprite.

Like I said, some devs can make amazing-looking 2D games using 3D assets. This dev did not.

Should be noted - most games that succeed aesthetically will use a combination of 3D animation/effects over painted backgrounds. You get the benefit of a beautifully detailed world, much of which is static, without the workload of hand animating all of the moving parts of the game.

[MrDjinn]

I agree that those games look great, but they are still don't use 3D models in a 2D plane. 3D or even clay models have been used to make sprites for decades - that's not a new concept. Original Doom is one big example of using clay model photographs for enemies, while Diablo 2 used both clay and 3D models turned to 2D sprites.

That's what I'm saying though - we don't have an example of a 2D plane game with full 3D assets that looks great. The closest is Trine and even then I feel like the backgrounds are far better looking than anything on the first plane, which your eyes will be focused on for the most of the game.

And Bloodstained is no exception, sadly. Which is the whole point of this conversation. Maybe if they went for 3D models as base for 2D sprites game would look far better, but it's still much more time consuming than just sticking to 3D models.

[DOUBLE F]

Originally posted by MrDjinn:

I agree that those games look great, but they are still don't use 3D models in a 2D plane. 3D or even clay models have been used to make sprites for decades - that's not a new concept. Original Doom is one big example of using clay model photographs for enemies, while Diablo 2 used both clay and 3D models turned to 2D sprites.

That's what I'm saying though - we don't have an example of a 2D plane game with full 3D assets that looks great. The closest is Trine and even then I feel like the backgrounds are far better looking than anything on the first plane, which your eyes will be focused on for the most of the game.

And Bloodstained is no exception, sadly. Which is the whole point of this conversation. Maybe if they went for 3D models as base for 2D sprites game would look far better, but it's still much more time consuming than just sticking to 3D models.

what about bastion? or dragons crown? or odins sphere? or transistor?

[Junker-2047-]

Originally posted by SlutMaker:

what about bastion? or dragons crown? or odins sphere? or transistor?

Not only are those not 2D platformers but they are all hand-drawn and animated 2D sprites.

Kamitani fan here. Worried about 13 Sentinels.

[Nanashi]

The floatiness does not come from the semi 3D look.

If you know Aria of Sorrow it's easy to see what they tried to achieve. If not then look up some gameplay. It has to be seen if it feels similar but the choice of visuals is not the reason for the floatiness of the characters. It definitely was intended.

Really would have loved actual 2D but they had their reasons not to go with it.