Story Discussion: Is Zangetsu's Logic Flawed?

[Hyde 'n Seek]

Obviously spoilers here, but I wanted to get other people's takes on an aspect of the story I thought didn't work too well.

Somewhat late in the game, Zangetsu comments that it makes no sense that Dominique kept sending Zangetsu on missions separate to the main mission Miriam is trying to accomplish, and claims Dominique would've had them work together if she really wanted things done, but does that actually make sense, and correspond with the flow of the story?

From the first moment Zangetsu and Miriam meet, its clear Zangetsu refuses to speak with or hang around Miriam (this only changes out of necessity during the train). In fact, if you visit Dominique's shop often throughout the story, you can see Zangetsu talking to Dominique and refusing to even be in the same room as Miriam, in spite of the fact Dominique clearly at least pretends she wants both Zangetsu and Miriam to be on good terms and able to work together. If Dominique had asked Zangetsu to work with Miriam in any regard, he would have completely hated the idea until much later in the game than it would have made sense to ask.

Additionally, even the claim that Dominique wasn't having the two of them work together seems flawed. Considering Dominique's ties to the demons and her ability to navigate the castle on her own, she likely knows a significant number of its points of interest. She actively asks Zangetsu to explore points of interest under the guise of looking for Alfred, but if you talk to Dominique you'll realize the places she sent Zangetsu are the exact places where Miriam would need to go to pick up powers to progress, which Zangetsu than actively tells Miriam about in messages he leaves with Dominique. (To sort out the logic of what I just said a bit Dominique assigns Zangetsu an area she likely knows will be helpful to Miriam -> Zangetsu explores area -> Miram is lacking a shard she needs -> Zangetsu communicates to Dominique that he found just what she needs). Its very clear that all three of them are, in some sense, working together towards the exact same goal in the best capacity they could be expected to. Working with the fact Zangetsu and Miriam shouldn't know that Dominique likely knows more about the castle than she should, it still makes sense with the size of the castle to have them split up, cover ground, and reconvene to share info, as its clear they're doing throughout.

My main point here is that, even if Dominique hadn't been working to summon Bael, and did have the best intentions, the actions of Zangetsu, Miriam, and herself would have in reality changed very little. His thought that she was suspicious the whole time is barely warranted for him. I feel only Miriam would have had reason to make such a claim (considering as the player we witness Dominique's suspicious behaviors first hand in a way Zangetsu is never implied to)

But maybe I missed some things, or maybe I misinterpreted something. What are everyone else's thoughts on this?

[thefollowingcharacters]

The plot is window dressing to go kill demons in a castle. This is not a grand well thought out story. Its meant as pure entertainment that you shouldn't think too hard about. =)

[Hyde 'n Seek]

Originally posted by thefollowingcharacters:

The plot is window dressing to go kill demons in a castle. This is not a grand well thought out story. Its meant as pure entertainment that you shouldn't think too hard about. =)

I mean you aren't wrong its definitely not the focus. I was simply curious if anyone else had perspectives on this aspect was all.

[Syzzle]

His point is that if she wanted to get rid of Gebel she would have asked Zangetsu and Miriam to hunt the same target, but she sent them to find different targets.

[sagamov]

Originally posted by Hyde 'n Seek:

If Dominique had asked Zangetsu to work with Miriam in any regard, he would have completely hated the idea until much later in the game than it would have made sense to ask.

Probably but it would still make sense to at least ask, not using the best strategy possible to avoid making someone grumpy is at best poor planning and at worst suspicious

Originally posted by Hyde 'n Seek:

Its very clear that all three of them are, in some sense, working together towards the exact same goal in the best capacity they could be expected to.

Or Zangetsu could just go with Miriam and help move through the castle and avoid the shard hunt in the first place

Originally posted by Hyde 'n Seek:

His thought that she was suspicious the whole time is barely warranted for him.

He knew her backstory and confront her about it, Miriam only learned about it because she overheard them talking

In general, Zangetsu seems a little on the paranoid side, so he expecting the worst of everyone doesn't look that weird to me

[TankHunter678]

Ultimately it was a question of expedience. If they just needed to get rid of Gebel and Gremory to put a stop to all these plans then the smart thing would have been to just send Miriam and Zangetsu directly after Gebel. Miriam does not need all these shards to deal with him, and Zangetsu could get her through any obstacles. Zangetsu would deal with Gremory and Miriam would get rid of Gebel. The book would have been claimed quickly and likely just outright destroyed then to prevent another calamity from happening.

If Gremory abandoned Gebel then all Zangetsu needs to do is keep Miriam close. Gremory requires a Shardbinder as a catalyst to summon her King Bael, and Miriam was the last Shardbinder on the face of the planet.

Alfred would have also been easily dealt with as if he tried to pop in to snatch the book he would have been caught in the anti-teleport trap Zangetsu deploys.

Zangetsu may not have liked Miriam but in terms of getting their combined goal done she would have been useful in at least keeping Gebel busy so he could defeat Gremory without interruptions. Then deal with Miriam after the situation was over and done.

Everything would have wrapped up nice and quickly. Which is what left Zangetsu confused. They were not being efficient in dealing with the problem at hand. They were doing all of this roundabout work that was not required. Which is why he investigated Alfred rather then eliminating him, and then started to put the pieces together.

Dominique was sending him around to scout out areas with gradually stronger foes with new abilities to power up Miriam. Miriam herself is enough catalyst to be half of the original summoning, which was to summon Bael and an entire army of demons. What if someone only wanted to summon just Bael? Just Miriam would be enough. The stronger she was, the more power she had, the better.

It was pure speculation at that point, but Dominique did have one known goal even if how she was trying to do it was unknown: she wanted revenge on the Demons.

What if she wanted to summon Bael to kill him and get revenge, him being the King of Demons and according to the demons the King of Kings? There is no guarantee if that was even possible, and summoning Bael into the world could lead to its destruction if it was not.

Her stealing the book and not destroying it also set off warning alarms of that might be just what she was planning.

[Hyde 'n Seek]

Originally posted by sagamov:

Or Zangetsu could just go with Miriam and help move through the castle and avoid the shard hunt in the first place

This is exactly true, but the fact its true is also part of the problem. Zangetsu had multiple opportunities to tag along with Miriam, and not once does he stick by her longer than absolutely necessary. If he realizes it would've been faster to work with her, being standoffish towards her and refusing to work together even when they often end up in similar places isn't something he should be doing, regardless of dominique. The most he can muster is to pass along messages to her, not even wanting to be in the same room as her. No matter what Dominique asked him to do, theres just no world in which someone who continually acts like that would have explored the castle alongside her unless he thought it was completely necessary. No matter how much Miriam insists Zangetsu is holding back when fighting her, hes completely willing to kill her just the same. He is more than happy to do this himself without her existing if he can.

Its true, Dominique should've asked him to do it anyway. So long as he said no or didn't want to work directly with her, which as I stated above I think is likely, things could've happened much the same but with a somewhat more innocent seeming Dominique. Which to be honest its almost strange she didn't. Her whole act of being able to pretend she wants Miriam and Zangetsu to get along works because she knows Zangetsu won't go for it. She's so confident they would never get along that its Zangetsu gaining respect and trust in Miriam that ultimately destroys her plan.

If I look at it like that, which does take a bit of speculation and conjecture, not asking them to work together is actually her biggest mistake. Not because it doesn't make sense (i still think theres no point in asking someone to do something you know they wouldn't) but because it betrays her persona of pretending thats basically what she wants.

[Rad Dad Redemption]

It was pretty obvious Dominique was a villain from the very beginning of the game. IGA games aren't exactly known for great story lines and dialogue. They're known for killing creatures of the night in a big ass castle.

[Hyde 'n Seek]

Originally posted by TankHunter678:

It was pure speculation at that point, but Dominique did have one known goal even if how she was trying to do it was unknown: she wanted revenge on the Demons.

What if she wanted to summon Bael to kill him and get revenge, him being the King of Demons and according to the demons the King of Kings? There is no guarantee if that was even possible, and summoning Bael into the world could lead to its destruction if it was not.

Her stealing the book and not destroying it also set off warning alarms of that might be just what she was planning.

I find your take on Dominique and her goals to be interesting. I really hope we hear a bit more explicit details about her and her backstory when we get the DLC for other playable characters

Originally posted by CisMalePrivilege(◡‿◡✿):

It was pretty obvious Dominique was a villain from the very beginning of the game. IGA games aren't exactly known for great story lines and dialogue. They're known for killing creatures of the night in a big ass castle.

As I think I mentioned in another reply, I understand this but I still think its fun to use our heads and try to talk about potential plot and character motives that aren't super clear in the source material.