Foundation

Foundation

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Markets and over economy buildings need work
Most of the time when my commoners leave it's from a lack of access to higher tier foods, while I have 70+ bread sitting in storage and am importing meat non-stop. The market stalls just aren't getting refilled, and it's making me a bit mad. I have one stall that is about 2 houses away from my granary holding the food it needs, and it still just sits empty for hours every day. It makes no sense.

Please, just refill the stall until it's full every morning and let me add custom parts for more storage. That would solve so many problems in many economy and sales buildings.
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Showing 1-12 of 12 comments
Check how far the away the market tender lives. Could be an issue there. If they are far away, kick them out of their current house, and they should find a place to live closer to the market stall. That might improve the resource situation.
Maehlice Feb 15 @ 10:05am 
The City Market (Tier 4) doubles the storage of Stalls and adds dedicated Porters for Market storage.

Without looking at your specific setup, I can't say why it isn't working, but I can report that my Village Market of just 4 stalls (Berries, Fish, Meat, Bread) remains stocked at all times in a village of 117.
Dietre Feb 15 @ 10:45am 
Did you add the market tents on each stall? it adds 20 storage capacity so they will stock 30 of each food vs 10.
My current village has like 230 ppl or so and i have one market stall of each food. never run out.
Nakaris Feb 15 @ 1:21pm 
Do us a favor and post a screen with taxation and maybe one with city layout. Im sure we can then easly give advice on how to make your game experince more enjoable.
i have a similar problem but with the people not buying from the market the market is full of goods and i have a few markets still people live because they are missing food and good while they can buy them
Originally posted by EvilLordKitten:
i have a similar problem but with the people not buying from the market the market is full of goods and i have a few markets still people live because they are missing food and good while they can buy them
Commoners need two types of processed food (e.g. bread and cheese or meat and bread). So if you have commoners and they are complaining about the food, it's likely that it's due to that.

Doubling up market stalls for each resource can help
Originally posted by Doc_Hotpants:
Check how far the away the market tender lives. Could be an issue there. If they are far away, kick them out of their current house, and they should find a place to live closer to the market stall. That might improve the resource situation.

Its not to do with that.

When a market tender goes off to find food, it checks where it the nearest available is, then it goes off to get it. Even if that means going to the other side of the map.

On its way there, theres no new check to see if food is closer by. Meanwhile, other market tenders, and/or transporters, may have already cleared out that storage leaving the market tender with nothing to get.

It's basically that they do not have a maximum range of where they would need to get their foodstuff from. It's also transporters stealing from other granaries instead of focussing on nearby foodstuff with output.
Cautemoc Feb 16 @ 1:47pm 
Originally posted by Inardesco:
Originally posted by Doc_Hotpants:
Check how far the away the market tender lives. Could be an issue there. If they are far away, kick them out of their current house, and they should find a place to live closer to the market stall. That might improve the resource situation.

Its not to do with that.

When a market tender goes off to find food, it checks where it the nearest available is, then it goes off to get it. Even if that means going to the other side of the map.

On its way there, theres no new check to see if food is closer by. Meanwhile, other market tenders, and/or transporters, may have already cleared out that storage leaving the market tender with nothing to get.

It's basically that they do not have a maximum range of where they would need to get their foodstuff from. It's also transporters stealing from other granaries instead of focussing on nearby foodstuff with output.

This makes so much sense. I've been wondering why they struggle to keep food stocked and it's definitely that other transporters are moving it around. I'm guessing my infrastructure is a little *too* transporter heavy, since I thought adding more would help the problem, but actually it'd just make it worse. I wonder if making 1 granary per resource would be better since it would hold more of a single resource and all transporters would be sourcing from the same place.
Maehlice Feb 16 @ 2:04pm 
Originally posted by Cautemoc:
I'm guessing my infrastructure is a little *too* transporter heavy, since I thought adding more would help the problem, but actually it'd just make it worse. I wonder if making 1 granary per resource would be better since it would hold more of a single resource and all transporters would be sourcing from the same place.

That explanation definitely makes sense. I can see how too much logistics could lead to resources in limbo floating around the city.

If you right-click a resource in the Resources panel, it'll track where all of your resources are. You can watch them flow around your city.

IDK if this is any help, but this is how my Village Market is set up right now:

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3428903803

You can see the Village Market, Bakery, Butcher, Granary (Boar, Meat, Fish, Berries, Bread), & their Housing all in that same screenshot. (Water is just off-screen to the 'north'.

These are the only stalls in the entire city, and they are always fully-stocked.
Originally posted by Cautemoc:
This makes so much sense. I've been wondering why they struggle to keep food stocked and it's definitely that other transporters are moving it around. I'm guessing my infrastructure is a little *too* transporter heavy, since I thought adding more would help the problem, but actually it'd just make it worse. I wonder if making 1 granary per resource would be better since it would hold more of a single resource and all transporters would be sourcing from the same place.

During EA I used mods to increase the granary stocks, since 100 would require you to have like a dozen in a single place if you'd grow close to 1000 people. So once my pop would reach 1100+ I would run in that issue of empty granaries and such.

So, I tried something with a new build, where I would have the main granaries and warehouses supplying the nearby markets, on stock max. As far as I'm aware, stock max doesn't have other granaries steal from that granary. This seemed to have helped despite the population being like 1500+ at some point.

But, it is something you have to do from the get go afaik because otherwise it's still not helping a lot.

Basically my set up would be;

Granary nearby areas designated to collect food.
Granary nearby market, set to stock maximum, collecting the collected food from granary.

And for warehouse the same.
Warehouse nearby area designated to collect wares.
Warehease nearby market, set to stock maximum, collecting the collected wares from warehouse.

In theory, that should work, with the granary/warehouse close to market always as full as possible.
Last edited by Inardesco; Feb 16 @ 2:10pm
hmm... this post is getting a bit long so here is the tl;dr: Warehouses/granaries main purpose is to have workers that are dedicated to walking so that other jobs dont have to.

Originally posted by Inardesco:
So, I tried something with a new build, where I would have the main granaries and warehouses supplying the nearby markets, on stock max. As far as I'm aware, stock max doesn't have other granaries steal from that granary.
[...]
Granary nearby areas designated to collect food.
Granary nearby market, set to stock maximum, collecting the collected food from granary.

And for warehouse the same.

That applies to anything and not just markets. But I think warehouses/granaries are misunderstood. They are often thought of as storage. Which is why something like bigger storage mods are out there. I like to suggest that they are not about storage, they are about work. And the work they do is the bane of this game: Walking!
I like to work with a "steady state", which boils down to: If I let this game run unattended for an "infinite" amount of time, will it survive? And for that question storage doesnt matter. Flow does. You need to produce and transport enough food to satisfy the need. Market tenders dont sell food btw, they are just transporters. Stalls are just small storages open to the public.

Very simple example: Berries. For a spoiled serfs need of berries to be satisfied you need to produce and then transport them to the stall. The berry hut does the producing and the stall does the transporting. The village grows and we run out of berries, so we place 2 more berry huts to solve the problem, but damn! the market tender cant keep the stall stocked up.
You have 4 options now:
1. Brute force. Build another market stall. Now you have another transporter. -> increased flow
2. Move the stall. Shorter walking distance for the market tender, more trips -> increased flow HOWEVER: Your villagers now have to walk further. Might not be a problem. Those plebs have so much free time that they can walk a bit. Even if its a very inefficient trip of just one berry.
3. Build the tent on the stall. Great! more storage. Now it can hold 30 berries. I'm sorry to say, but its not about storage. Your market stall tender can now transport 30 berries per trip. The storage is just the means to allow -> increased flow
4. Storage near the market stall. The single market tender now has very short trips. Even with just 10 berries per trip the throughput is great because the trip is short. And you can employ 4 workers (that could carry up to 100 resources!) for the long trips to the berry huts. -> increased flow

I'm not saying that storage is a useless side effect. Due to the unnecessary luxury of "free time" every villager enjoys, you need some kind of storage to buffer all the slacking off. The storage increase for the market stall is such a thing. With a granary nearby a single vendor could sell huge amounts of berries. Until he is off work. Then the village starves. The bigger storage on the stall does a bit of buffering for the off time.

A more complex example is bread production.
a) More intermediate steps.
b) Burst production for wheat.
c) It crosses the serf/commoner barrier.

c) Is a more overall design decision. I only have commoners in my main city. The outer villages are serf only. So I produce wheat and process flour in the village and bake the bread in the city.
So the outside village has the wheat farm and mill. The granary has a few purposes: Wheat storage. This can also be done with the farm upgrades. You dont want your farms to stall harvest because the storage is full. More importantly though: The workers in the mill only have to cross the road to get more resources. The less a miller has to walk the more wheat he/she can process. It also acts as a flour concentrator and pickup point: Mills can store up to 50 flour. That restricts the max amount a transporter can carry to 50. The granary stores 100. You want the maximum amount per trip for the long distance transporting jobs. The granary therefore stores just wheat and flour (amount of slots depending on taste).
In the city I have a granary with flour slots set to stock max. As already mentioned it sets it up to collect from other warehouses without range restrictions and other warehouses dont "steal" from it. Thats the granary that does some very heavy lifting. The easy part is collecting the bread from the bakers, but they also do the long distance hauling of the flour from the outer village. And since I my bakers are in the city they can be commoners and the bread hardly has to travel.
One thing to note is that bread production has a quirk in its production: Compression and expansion (Factorio-brain is taking over now ). Its 12 wheat -> 3 flour -> 5 bread. Splitting the production at the flour point is optimal here. Transporting 100 wheat would be ~40 bread, 100 flour equals ~160 bread and transporting 100 bread is... 100 bread.
And since my ADHD is overanalysing this anyway: It gets funny with production chains that are less lucky. Its 3 wool (serf) -> 1 cloth(commoner) -> 2 clothes(citizen). If you go for a strick serf/commoner(and citizen) separation you have the choice between transporting lots of wool to the city (which means more serf in the city!) or you take the hit on production speed and weave the cloth with serfs. Extra complexity: Cloth is also a building material. Cheese is even less clear: 2 milk (serf) -> 1 cheese(commoner). Do you take the hit on 50% less efficient transport or 50% less efficient production?

For a "casual" game with such simple rules and control options its quite complex and nuanced.
Originally posted by Feral Grumpicorn:
(snip)
You have 4 options now:
1. Brute force. Build another market stall. Now you have another transporter. -> increased flow
2. Move the stall. Shorter walking distance for the market tender, more trips -> increased flow HOWEVER: Your villagers now have to walk further. Might not be a problem. Those plebs have so much free time that they can walk a bit. Even if its a very inefficient trip of just one berry.
3. Build the tent on the stall. Great! more storage. Now it can hold 30 berries. I'm sorry to say, but its not about storage. Your market stall tender can now transport 30 berries per trip. The storage is just the means to allow -> increased flow
4. Storage near the market stall. The single market tender now has very short trips. Even with just 10 berries per trip the throughput is great because the trip is short. And you can employ 4 workers (that could carry up to 100 resources!) for the long trips to the berry huts. -> increased flow
(snip)
For a "casual" game with such simple rules and control options its quite complex and nuanced.

Option 5: Have more stalls for your resource.

From my first market on, I always ALWAYS double up stalls for any resource. I have not had issues since unless my production is lacking. In city markets, I might even have the same resource three or four times, depending on population size.

This solves the "free time" issue, as it's likely the market tenders will have that free time at slightly different times. It solves the "villager's need is unfulfilled if Gawd forbid they had to wait in line a nanosecond" as well.

Seriously, never rely on just one market stall for a resource, even for serfs, and most definitely not with large populations where you might also have visitors clawing up said resource.
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Date Posted: Feb 15 @ 9:49am
Posts: 12