Is the City Market worth it?

[Maehlice]

As just a storage building, a City Market is super efficient and can be a great replacement for some Warehouses -- especially since it functions as a combination warehouse/granary with twice the worker count.

But on the Market side? Sheesh. It's way too expensive compared to a Village Market:

I can maintain 10 Food Stalls in a Village Market for the same upkeep cost as just one at a City Market.

Only the Luxury Good Stalls are a 'good deal' being only 1.67 times more expensive for twice the storage. Common Goods Stalls are 'okay' at 2.5 times the upkeep.

I get that Foundation is supposed to be more of a creative builder, so I get that it kinda doesn't matter ... but still ... like, really?

[28rommel]

Wow. This is amazing.
Can you believe this guy and his continued behavior?

[Bored Peon]

https://steamcommunity.com/app/690830/discussions/0/3105773861187006241/#c3105773861189333412

Originally posted by Minotorious:

The issue with having too few food stalls is that it might work for a while but in case suddenly more villagers decide to go on free time simultaneously they will run out and you will end up with some angry folks.

With 6 stalls you constantly have about 300 food available to be bought, but what happens if suddenly 400 villagers want to go and buy food at the same time before a tender has time to restock?

The 1 stall per 50 villagers with a food need metric ensures that even if suddenly all villagers simultaneously go to buy food all of them will actually find food in a stall waiting for them ;)

Here go argue with the developer 50 per stall is wrong.

[Maehlice]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

Originally posted by Maehlice:

I'm going to play a little devil's advocate / voice of reason and say that correlation is not causation.

This is your post correct?
https://steamcommunity.com/app/690830/discussions/2/599645206077271358/?tscn=1740233148#c599645206077315108

Originally posted by Maehlice:

To the topic though, YES. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, YES! It's frustrating how they sometimes miss the forest for the trees.

That was the EXACT issue I mentioned.
You agreed it was an issue.

I agree that it's frustrating. I agree that it can be a chore to understand and work with. But that doesn't mean I agree with everything you have said or will say about the Market and its Tenders. Nor does it mean that it's an unmanageable issue.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

Yet now you are trying to blame the problem on me instead.

This isn't a blame game. I don't care whose fault it is, nor is it about blame or fault. In fact, I bet that nobody cares if you're wrong ... that nobody cares if you're right. We're all just sharing our experiences and trying to learn from each other. If you're convinced you're right, then fine, keep doing what you're doing, but please don't lash out when people are doing the same thing you're doing -- sharing their own experiences and knowledge.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

Was that city on challenging difficulty? Yes or no?
Notice how the people intent on blaming me ALWAYS forget that major detail.

Notice also how in your initial response, no mention of difficulty was made:

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

...
- That 60 storage capacity is amazing with on site storage is amazing for high populations. A normal market stall is worth about 50-60 population before you start getting missed needs. That 60 capacity with 200 storage makes it able to serve hundreds.

Since you asked, that particular city was on Classic.

But ya know what doesn't change from Classic to Challenge? Villager walking speed. Villager carrying capacity. Villager working hours. Villager consumption rates. Villager needs. None of the variables that would affect the efficiency of a Market Stall and its Tender are altered by difficulty level.

The only thing difficulty does is decrease the amount of production. As long as you double/triple/quadruple/whatever the production chains to sufficiently supply the Market Stalls, they keep on trucking.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

Originally posted by Maehlice:

But to say that a Village Market with single stalls can only keep up with 50-60 villagers is patently false.

How do you figure that?
Market stall has a capacity of 30 customers.

Now using the same exact game mechanic, have a need walk to a location and fill it:
If a church has a seating capacity of 30, what happens once you have not increased the size by the time you reach 50-60 villagers?
You get a shortage and that is WITHOUT losing time to go restock.
So why would it be any different for a market tent with a capacity of 30?

Because a Village Market Stall doesn't have a capacity of 30 customers -- it has a capacity of 30 items.

It's different from a Church, because it uses a completely different service-fulfillment mechanic:

The Market Tender can refill their stall as many times as necessary during their shift to serve far more customers than just how many items they can put on the shelf at a time.

---

I'm sectioning this off, because it seems important.

You've contradicted yourself.

In your first post, you claimed, "A normal market stall is worth about 50-60 population."

But now you are claiming, "Market stall has a capacity of 30 customers."

Which is it? Because it can't be both.

---

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

It has been said for YEARS by MANY game veterans market stalls only serve 50-60 before you need to place a second one with the same good. Do I really need to go dig up an old post to prove that?

A LOT changed since EA upon release, so past data isn't guaranteed to still be applicable.

EDIT: The post you quoted while I was typing this is from 4 years ago at the beginning of EA. A lot lot lot has changed since then.

Is it good advice to expand the Market every 50-60 villagers? Yes, because that's good general advice. Key word: general. That is not an absolute, it's a "best practice".

What I know is that I have a village of 180 being served by single Village Market Stalls. If they had a limit of either 30 or 60 or even 120, what I've accomplished would be nothing short of a hacker miracle.

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

Just because newer players have not noticed the issue yet does not mean the issue does not exist.

And just because you think there's an issue does not mean the issue does exist. I have an actual game right now doing exactly what you say it can't do. You can dig up as many posts and find as many witnesses as you want, because it can't change what I've seen with my own two eyes and accomplished with my own 10 fingers.

[Maehlice]

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

I posted an opinion.
... my opinion ...
... my opinion ...
... my opinion ...
... my opinion ...

You stated many opinions -- some of which I agree with in your first response.

But specifically where this 30, 50, 60, whatever limit is concerned, you're stating it as objective fact.

There is tangible evidence which disproves that Village Market Stalls have a limit -- even if that limit is thrice what you've stated.

It cannot be true that a single village market stall has a limit of 30/50/60 and also that a village of 180 (plus its visitors) is being supported by a single village market stall per resource.

---

The topic is long since derailed, and I have my answers anyway.

[Bored Peon]

Originally posted by Maehlice:

But specifically where this 30, 50, 60, whatever limit is concerned, you're stating it as objective fact.

Quote where I said 50-60 was fact.
Good luck finding it.

As for the 30 resources held by a market tent, that IS fact. Anyone who knows anything about the game should now that fact. Yet here you are repeatedly attacking me over the market tent holding 30 resources.

Originally posted by Maehlice:

There is tangible evidence which disproves that Village Market Stalls have a limit -- even if that limit is thrice what you've stated.

Market tent holds 30 resources, what happens when 180 all use it as the same time?
The fact the vendor has to restock it 6 times means there is plenty of opportunity to fail.

I have seen no evidence disproving anything. All I see is a screenshot showing 99% happiness and 180 population.
- I cannot see the rest of the map
- I cannot see your happiness bonuses
- I cannot see your happiness penalties (not 100% means you have a penalty)
- I cannot I see if if the market holds up over time.

I have to take your word on the evidence, which aint ever happening because you have derailed and deflection the situation from the dude telling me "You did something wrong" to this argument of how many customers the tents supports.

[Manserk]

Originally posted by Maehlice:

Originally posted by Bored Peon:

I posted an opinion.
... my opinion ...
... my opinion ...
... my opinion ...
... my opinion ...

You stated many opinions -- some of which I agree with in your first response.

But specifically where this 30, 50, 60, whatever limit is concerned, you're stating it as objective fact.

There is tangible evidence which disproves that Village Market Stalls have a limit -- even if that limit is thrice what you've stated.

It cannot be true that a single village market stall has a limit of 30/50/60 and also that a village of 180 (plus its visitors) is being supported by a single village market stall per resource.

---

The topic is long since derailed, and I have my answers anyway.

I am picking up the conversation, but I can say that a single market building with 2 stalls of 60 food (basic + processed) is enough for a village of 160 villagers. I think it's because of the fast refill from storage. Villagers also don't eat all at the same time !

[Manserk]

I did a test with 156 villager and 2 stall without upgrade (rustic + processed) it's not enough you get shortages https://i.imgur.com/byFqEnM.png

The storage is at a fair distance of the stalls, I think putting them next to is would improve things https://i.imgur.com/BfBXF7x.png

with 156 villager and upgraded stalls you get way less food shortage for the same amount of people and market configuration https://i.imgur.com/jrN7nYK.png

One very important thing I found : people can buy at the stall while the sell is away being refilling the stall. However they can't buy if there is 0 food and will get the "shortage" debuff

HOWEVER seller can be on "free time" which mean they will not refill anything for a period of time

[Manserk]

2 stall of 30 food is about enough for 156 people, I occasionally still get the "shortage" debuff https://i.imgur.com/M40XKk4.png (ignore the monk that I couldn't fire because of a bug)

[Manserk]

Next testing with a market with 2 stall and no upgrade : no more food shortage https://i.imgur.com/aZvecz1.png

[Phytoseiulus Persimilis]

Originally posted by Manserk:

One very important thing I found : people can buy at the stall while the sell is away being refilling the stall. However they can't buy if there is 0 food and will get the "shortage" debuff

This is a really important thing.

Depending on the distance between his house and the merchant's stall, the merchant may have to go much further to get his own food. During this time, he does not restock his stall, which can cause a chain reaction of shortages.

A market stall just needs to have enough stock to last the duration of the merchant's absence in "free time".

The distance between his stall and the storage is also important... but can largely be mitigated with a city market.

[Minotorious]

ok people, let's all take a break and chill out. I will be locking this thread as the OP has already marked a post as the answer they were looking for.