Manual Sequential shifting without clutch not damaging gears?

[BenWhittle]

Just started playing with my Thrustmaster T248 (I only have sequential) and noticed that when I eventually got the clutch to work, it seems like it doesn't matter if I use the clutch or not while shifting? I tested this in free roam and it didn't seem like I had any assists on (besides clutch override so the clutch could calm down rpm's and actually be usable) and I heard no damage noises or anything.

Do rally cars even need a clutch to shift? Is this an issue with my setup? I love the feeling of a well timed shift with clutching and if I can't experience that in this that's kinda sad.

[Mjarr]

It is entirely dependent on your device set in the configuration (in this case, manual sequential) that ignores whatever the car has as far as the game is concerned, thus you can ignore clutch altogether if you want. That being said, you can still use clutch as shift that is entirely up to you, and especially with RWDs or old cars with turbo, being able to use clutch rather than having to really use throttle for things you can use clutch, or have to worry less about making tight corner entries just right, but with sequential device the game treats it how (modern) sequential transmission would treat it.

[Josephus]

If you have manual-sequential set and no assists, if you try to change gears on a manual without the clutch You will get a "CLASH" sound effect and no power until you engage the clutch and reset the stick. On a manual, you will eventually kill the gearbox if you abuse it enough, but DR is pretty forgiving, even with hardcore damage enabled.

IRL, sequentials started with "dog boxes," for use with straight-cut gears that maximize torque for racing. This is why shifts with Sequentials are so rough, no synchro-mesh between gears. Modern gearboxes that have "rev matchers/protectors" to help save the gearbox from a the engine at full revs hitting first gear and blowing up, and AWD distributes the torque so it is REALLY hard to blow up.

For sequentials, Dirt Rally biases toward modern style sequentials. Now I think DR is a bit forgiving on the sequentials as I have not yet blown up a gearbox with a sequential that I can recall. However with DR sequentials the torque does not magically disappear so on tarmac especially if you downshift too fast that torque will wrench that car to the right so fast and now you are a passenger unless you are both lucky and quick.

What DR 2.0 does NOT have is rev matching. I can live without it but if you are in the rev range for a gear you should be able to just downshift without clutch. This reduces the "cognitive load" quite a bit when approaching a turn. This needs to happen in the next release. Drivers have been doing this as long as there have been gearboxes so not sure what the deal is.

[karik_FIN_134]

Modern rally cars, currently Rally 1+hybrid, Rally 2, Rally 3, Rally 4(fwd) are all with sequential gearboxes. In those there's no need to use clutch for shifting, When going gears up/down throttle input is briefly cut off electronically,

In real life it is possible to damage sequential gearbox by going gears way too down quickly instead of gradually as speed drops, but in DR2.0 it doesn't matter and can be sort of abused. Certain race classes have a protection for it so then it will prevent gearshift down until speed is low enough to go a gear down (this is done at least in GT3, GT4 race classes, maybe even Formula 1 cars idk).

Sequential rally cars do have a clutch pedal which is mainly used on road section between stages, and usually at the start line, sometimes also on the stage to prevent stalling in very slow corners like hairpins etc. Even F1 cars have have clutch but on paddles in steering wheel and are used in starts.

[BenWhittle]

Originally posted by Josephus:

If you have manual-sequential set and no assists, if you try to change gears on a manual without the clutch You will get a "CLASH" sound effect and no power until you engage the clutch and reset the stick. On a manual, you will eventually kill the gearbox if you abuse it enough, but DR is pretty forgiving, even with hardcore damage enabled.

IRL, sequentials started with "dog boxes," for use with straight-cut gears that maximize torque for racing. This is why shifts with Sequentials are so rough, no synchro-mesh between gears. Modern gearboxes that have "rev matchers/protectors" to help save the gearbox from a the engine at full revs hitting first gear and blowing up, and AWD distributes the torque so it is REALLY hard to blow up.

For sequentials, Dirt Rally biases toward modern style sequentials. Now I think DR is a bit forgiving on the sequentials as I have not yet blown up a gearbox with a sequential that I can recall. However with DR sequentials the torque does not magically disappear so on tarmac especially if you downshift too fast that torque will wrench that car to the right so fast and now you are a passenger unless you are both lucky and quick.

What DR 2.0 does NOT have is rev matching. I can live without it but if you are in the rev range for a gear you should be able to just downshift without clutch. This reduces the "cognitive load" quite a bit when approaching a turn. This needs to happen in the next release. Drivers have been doing this as long as there have been gearboxes so not sure what the deal is.

Originally posted by karik_FIN_134:

Modern rally cars, currently Rally 1+hybrid, Rally 2, Rally 3, Rally 4(fwd) are all with sequential gearboxes. In those there's no need to use clutch for shifting, When going gears up/down throttle input is briefly cut off electronically,

In real life it is possible to damage sequential gearbox by going gears way too down quickly instead of gradually as speed drops, but in DR2.0 it doesn't matter and can be sort of abused. Certain race classes have a protection for it so then it will prevent gearshift down until speed is low enough to go a gear down (this is done at least in GT3, GT4 race classes, maybe even Formula 1 cars idk).

Sequential rally cars do have a clutch pedal which is mainly used on road section between stages, and usually at the start line, sometimes also on the stage to prevent stalling in very slow corners like hairpins etc. Even F1 cars have have clutch but on paddles in steering wheel and are used in starts.

Awesome information for a newbie, thank you folks this is great. I'm currently in F2 FWD and have yet to experience the sound of damaging gears when shifting without clutch, but that may be due to using Manual Sequential. In addition the only assist I have turned on is Clutch Override so I am able to utilize it to "calm down" the rpm's if I'm approaching too fast or whatnot, but in my testing it seems like this game really doesn't mind shifting without clutch when using sequential which is odd but then again I am just learning about rally car formats.

Maybe in the future when I get an H-Shifter and a Handbrake I'll notice the difference, thanks y'all

[Josephus]

Originally posted by BenWhittle:

Maybe in the future when I get an H-Shifter and a Handbrake I'll notice the difference, thanks y'al.

If you do not have a handbrake or H-shifter, the game will default to sequential I think, so you would not be able to hear the clash effect. You REALLY want to get a shifter SOONEST. It is a new game.

[Simon said EAT DUST PLAYER_1 !]

Seeing as the original question has been answered, I might add one nuance: There is such a thing such as "dogbox"- H-pattern gearboxes. One of the cars that would have used those IRL is e.g. the 95 Impreza as well as the Legacy (early Group-A-ish).
Meaning: you should be able to shift gears without using the clutch when on the move and you properly manage your engine-speed to roughly match the roadspeed of the destined gear. This type of gearbox is sadly not simulated in DR: I cannot drive even one car in the game without using the clutch.

Maybe - just maybe - after pretty much "sacking" Dirt Rally 3, EA will give what is left of CM the leeway to advance their simulation excellence in the next rally title (be it called WRC 23 or whatever). Until then: I am just about done downloading wrc-generations and crossing my fingers that it was worth 1/3rd the cash I laid out for DR2.0 :-)

[Zappeldude]

nice threat and good info!

so do I understand it right, that you can just up and downshift in DR 2 without taking the foot off the gas and not damaging the gearbox in the process??
if so, why am I damaging my gearbox at all, as long as I don't rev the motor up too high, while downshiftin?
or may this just be because of colisions?
(I'm not that good of a driver :-P)

thank you in advance!

[karik_FIN_134]

Originally posted by Beelzedude:

nice threat and good info!

so do I understand it right, that you can just up and downshift in DR 2 without taking the foot off the gas and not damaging the gearbox in the process??
if so, why am I damaging my gearbox at all, as long as I don't rev the motor up too high, while downshiftin?
or may this just be because of colisions?
(I'm not that good of a driver :-P)

thank you in advance!

Yes with h-pattern and sequential u can keep the throttle pinned when shifting up (and down) and it won't damage gearbox or other parts that it would matter.

Again modern rally cars Rally1 down to Rally4 have fly-by-wire throttle and computer will just cut the throttle input briefly to prevent damage so over-revving can't even happen.

Older cars should be the ones receiving more damage but it is very forgiving in this game. Lot of later H-pattern cars (Llike Gr A 1987-1996) where dogboxes and to shift u lifted the throttle to shift and clutch wasn't needed, gearboxes were built strong enough to last through a single event without any problems, and then new gearbox for next event etc (of course gearboxes can fail on their own for other reasons too, bad/weaker single part from bad batch etc).
This game can only simulate dogbox if u select "manual H-pattern" (without clutch) and then when shifting throttle input cuts away automatically.

[Josephus]

Originally posted by karik_FIN_134:

Originally posted by Beelzedude:

nice threat and good info!

so do I understand it right, that you can just up and downshift in DR 2 without taking the foot off the gas and not damaging the gearbox in the process??
if so, why am I damaging my gearbox at all, as long as I don't rev the motor up too high, while downshiftin?
or may this just be because of colisions?
(I'm not that good of a driver :-P)

thank you in advance!

Yes with h-pattern and sequential u can keep the throttle pinned when shifting up (and down) and it won't damage gearbox or other parts that it would matter.

Again modern rally cars Rally1 down to Rally4 have fly-by-wire throttle and computer will just cut the throttle input briefly to prevent damage so over-revving can't even happen.

Older cars should be the ones receiving more damage but it is very forgiving in this game. Lot of later H-pattern cars (Llike Gr A 1987-1996) where dogboxes and to shift u lifted the throttle to shift and clutch wasn't needed, gearboxes were built strong enough to last through a single event without any problems, and then new gearbox for next event etc (of course gearboxes can fail on their own for other reasons too, bad/weaker single part from bad batch etc).
This game can only simulate dogbox if u select "manual H-pattern" (without clutch) and then when shifting throttle input cuts away automatically.

I am gonna disagree with this. Provided you have the game set to manual/sequential with clutch and NOT auto clutch you WILL kill H-Pattern gearboxes with clutchless shifting. It is forgiving, but test it with the Fulvia. Make sure all settings are manual and assists off.

"Rev Matching," where if the engine RPMs are in the range for the gear you want to go to you can DOWNSHiFT with the clutch out is not implemented in DR 2.0. It is really the only flaw in my opinion, though others have longer lists.

This does not matter for sequentials because of electronic protection. If you try to abuse a sequential it will just wait until it is safe to go into gear costing you time.

[Zappeldude]

hehe I was only talking about sequential. H-pattern is no problem...
I'm just not used to how a sequential gearbox works (in this game).
okay. so no foot lifting. thats good.

thanks :)

[karik_FIN_134]

Originally posted by Josephus:

Originally posted by karik_FIN_134:

Yes with h-pattern and sequential u can keep the throttle pinned when shifting up (and down) and it won't damage gearbox or other parts that it would matter.

Again modern rally cars Rally1 down to Rally4 have fly-by-wire throttle and computer will just cut the throttle input briefly to prevent damage so over-revving can't even happen.

Older cars should be the ones receiving more damage but it is very forgiving in this game. Lot of later H-pattern cars (Llike Gr A 1987-1996) where dogboxes and to shift u lifted the throttle to shift and clutch wasn't needed, gearboxes were built strong enough to last through a single event without any problems, and then new gearbox for next event etc (of course gearboxes can fail on their own for other reasons too, bad/weaker single part from bad batch etc).
This game can only simulate dogbox if u select "manual H-pattern" (without clutch) and then when shifting throttle input cuts away automatically.

I am gonna disagree with this. Provided you have the game set to manual/sequential with clutch and NOT auto clutch you WILL kill H-Pattern gearboxes with clutchless shifting. It is forgiving, but test it with the Fulvia. Make sure all settings are manual and assists off.

"Rev Matching," where if the engine RPMs are in the range for the gear you want to go to you can DOWNSHiFT with the clutch out is not implemented in DR 2.0. It is really the only flaw in my opinion, though others have longer lists.

This does not matter for sequentials because of electronic protection. If you try to abuse a sequential it will just wait until it is safe to go into gear costing you time.

I drive Fulvia with H-pattern+clutch and if I don't press clutch in gear does not change. Game does not simulate dogbox kind of shifting and I don't think there's much damage to stuff.
So
- if using H-pattern+clutch = I need to press clutch in or u miss gear
- if using H-pattern (no clutch) = game will cut throttle input when shifting like in a dogbox
Older car do receive more gearbox damage from driving/racing more than some newer cars.

I've tested in H3 BMW and abused gearbox to absolute limit on hardcore damage with skipping gears 3-5 straight to 1st without braking multiple times and even form 3rd into reverse, no significant damage on hardcore damage to any part in the car.

can be seen here (abuse run starts at 8min 30sec)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1589322817?collection=9BMoVwSqCRfPzg

Personally I do lift the throttle when shifting in H-apttern+clutch, done that for about a year. It is more realistic thing to do (not damage engines etc) and some other more simulation games with more realisitc damage good thing to do.

[Josephus]

Originally posted by karik_FIN_134:

Originally posted by Josephus:

I am gonna disagree with this. Provided you have the game set to manual/sequential with clutch and NOT auto clutch you WILL kill H-Pattern gearboxes with clutchless shifting. It is forgiving, but test it with the Fulvia. Make sure all settings are manual and assists off.

"Rev Matching," where if the engine RPMs are in the range for the gear you want to go to you can DOWNSHiFT with the clutch out is not implemented in DR 2.0. It is really the only flaw in my opinion, though others have longer lists.

This does not matter for sequentials because of electronic protection. If you try to abuse a sequential it will just wait until it is safe to go into gear costing you time.

I drive Fulvia with H-pattern+clutch and if I don't press clutch in gear does not change. Game does not simulate dogbox kind of shifting and I don't think there's much damage to stuff.
So
- if using H-pattern+clutch = I need to press clutch in or u miss gear
- if using H-pattern (no clutch) = game will cut throttle input when shifting like in a dogbox
Older car do receive more gearbox damage from driving/racing more than some newer cars.

I've tested in H3 BMW and abused gearbox to absolute limit on hardcore damage with skipping gears 3-5 straight to 1st without braking multiple times and even form 3rd into reverse, no significant damage on hardcore damage to any part in the car.

can be seen here (abuse run starts at 8min 30sec)
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1589322817?collection=9BMoVwSqCRfPzg

Personally I do lift the throttle when shifting in H-apttern+clutch, done that for about a year. It is more realistic thing to do (not damage engines etc) and some other more simulation games with more realisitc damage good thing to do.

Great work thanks! I always use manual+clutch with my sim gear and if I miss a shift or try to upshift with the clutch out it plays an awful grinding noise. I get a few of these before the car just dies.

I realize they need to have clutchless work because of controllers and such.