My Personal Thoughts On Horde Mode So Far

[Faunts]

After playing Horde mode for a fair bit, I am confident I have reached a conclusion to my thoughts on it. I think the base for something really fun and enjoyable is there, but I had a feeling this mode would put the current targeting system to the test. Suffice to say, I think it doesn't make the cut.

In my oh so humble opinion, it just isn't able to handle multiple targets at once, at the very least no where near as smoothly as it should. My suggestion? I think something similiar to Armored Core's targeting system would fit a lot more than what we have now.

In AC you could easily lock onto targets and switch targets quickly without much of a fuss. Archangel's is just clunky, I can't really say much else other than it is far too slow for such a fast paced game with multiple targets to sift through.

I understand the main concentration of the game is 1v1, but as it stands Horde is not very fun when there are so many things to pay attention to, you are locked in one position, or you lock onto a target you didn't want.

I hope my perspective has been somewhat helpful. If my example wasn't clear enough I will link some images/videos of what I mean, or possibly give other examples from different mech games.

[TheRibbonRed]

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

In my oh so humble opinion, it just isn't able to handle multiple targets at once, at the very least no where near as smoothly as it should. My suggestion? I think something similiar to Armored Core's targeting system would fit a lot more than what we have now.

I agree that the locking system doesn't fit the mode (especially so with a controller), but to fit Armored Core's targeting system? That doesn't completely eliminate the problem.

As a typical mecha fan, I suggest that the locking system to be reduced to a simple button click & changing targets by distance--immediately locking into the nearest target.

Here's a video of Gundam Extreme Versus Full Boost's gameplay, with similar gameplay design in mind to Garrison: Archangel's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7Nhj4O6Xo
As you can see in the video, the player can immediately switch to the next target in a button click & close in onto the next target after the previous one is destroyed.

Although manual targeting offers freedom in aiming, it becomes a liability considering that this game is designed as a 1v1 fast-paced 3D fighting game. And with how fast the enemies die out in HORDE Mode, a quicker locking method is needed while still staying true to the 1v1 melee concept.

Gundam Versus' one-button switching provides that. Armored Core do not--as AC games doesn't go as fast as Garrison: Archangel's gameplay & are designed for ranged combat.

Note: I do love both Armored Core & Gundam Versus though. But I can see that from the quick dodge & the amount of combo availability of this game, Gundam Versus' melee-centric mechanisms would suit better than Armored Core's "one-swing" concept of melee combat.

[Faunts]

TheRibbonRed původně napsal:

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

In my oh so humble opinion, it just isn't able to handle multiple targets at once, at the very least no where near as smoothly as it should. My suggestion? I think something similiar to Armored Core's targeting system would fit a lot more than what we have now.

I agree that the locking system doesn't fit the mode (especially so with a controller), but to fit Armored Core's targeting system? That doesn't completely eliminate the problem.

As a typical mecha fan, I suggest that the locking system to be reduced to a simple button click & changing targets by distance--immediately locking into the nearest target.

Here's a video of Gundam Extreme Versus Full Boost's gameplay, with similar gameplay design in mind to Garrison: Archangel's:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR7Nhj4O6Xo
As you can see in the video, the player can immediately switch to the next target in a button click & close in onto the next target after the previous one is destroyed.

Although manual targeting offers freedom in aiming, it becomes a liability considering that this game is designed as a 1v1 fast-paced 3D fighting game. And with how fast the enemies die out in HORDE Mode, a quicker locking method is needed while still staying true to the 1v1 melee concept.

Gundam Versus' one-button switching provides that. Armored Core do not--as AC games doesn't go as fast as Garrison: Archangel's gameplay & are designed for ranged combat.

Note: I do love both Armored Core & Gundam Versus though. But I can see that from the quick dodge & the amount of combo availability of this game, Gundam Versus' melee-centric mechanisms would suit better than Armored Core's "one-swing" concept of melee combat.

I do agree, and understand, however I don't think Versus' targeting system fixes the problem either. The enemy count from what I have seen in Horde goes from 5 to more targets each wave. Versus series was set with only 2v2 with the occasional grunt mobile suits dropping onto the field.

While this does make it much more viable for melee, ranged weapons aren't so much as they are more of a tool to close distances rather than a dedicated ranged build. In Versus you are expected to mostly fight in melee barring a few exceptions.

https://youtu.be/jPkYFMn_mWk this is the best video I could find for the moment with decent gameplay displaying the targeting system's mobility. You can look around freely without your perspective being obstructed while also being able to attack on the move. This, in my opinion, would help a lot with multiple targets, but also help range builds too.

As it stands ranged weapons are kinda 'meh' in Archangel. They lack any punch to them, and reloading is a lot more common than I am comfortable with. You're not really aiming the gun, but more like shifting into the right direction for the bullets to connect. Missiles however are perfectly fine, my gripes are more with the few ballistic weapons available.

You can tell melee is much more prominent while ranged builds are an after thought. My hope is that this improves later down development. However I do agree, AC's melee is ♥♥♥♥ as a result of this lol.

[TheRibbonRed]

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

I do agree, and understand, however I don't think Versus' targeting system fixes the problem either. The enemy count from what I have seen in Horde goes from 5 to more targets each wave. Versus series was set with only 2v2 with the occasional grunt mobile suits dropping onto the field.

You're forgetting that Garrison: Archangel's HORDE enemies drop like flies, and my Gundam Versus video where it wasn't a 2v2 at all--though the game was built primarily for 2v2 much like Garrison: Archangel.

Instant quick switching would benefit players to go after the next HORDE target, while Armored Core locking mechanism require you to pan to the next target--and let's be honest, this game's viewpanning isn't the greatest by far.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

While this does make it much more viable for melee, ranged weapons aren't so much as they are more of a tool to close distances rather than a dedicated ranged build. In Versus you are expected to mostly fight in melee barring a few exceptions.

Same thing with Garrison: Archangel.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

https://youtu.be/jPkYFMn_mWk this is the best video I could find for the moment with decent gameplay displaying the targeting system's mobility. You can look around freely without your perspective being obstructed while also being able to attack on the move. This, in my opinion, would help a lot with multiple targets, but also help range builds too.

Sure, but you forget that Armored Core 4 enemies number in dozens--could even reach hundreds--with large maps and (most of the time) easily one-shot cannon fodders enemies. That's an antithesis to Garrison: Archangel's gameplay, unless you want to redesign a whole new structure and give the HORDE mode meat to its name.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

As it stands ranged weapons are kinda 'meh' in Archangel. They lack any punch to them, and reloading is a lot more common than I am comfortable with. You're not really aiming the gun, but more like shifting into the right direction for the bullets to connect. Missiles however are perfectly fine, my gripes are more with the few ballistic weapons available.

You can tell melee is much more prominent while ranged builds are an after thought. My hope is that this improves later down development.

See? You do understand that ranged weapons are more of a thing to close the distance in this game as well.

Thing is, making ranged weapons actually viable would impact the 2v2 mechanics of the game--which is the main part--and potentially make everyone bullet-spamming every match. Of course, you can always dodge and run them out of bullets, but then it'll be a tricky balance between boosting, ranged weapons, and melee.

If we were to make this a la Armored Core 1v1/2v2 (like Masters of Arena or Formula Front), We'll need far more bigger maps than what we have since people will be dodging all over the place. So far, the intention I picked up from playing Archangel is rather to make a customizable Gundam Versus game with than AC MoA.

Of course, this all could change depending on the devs. It's an interesting chance both ways, as I love both AC & Gundam Versus.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

However I do agree, AC's melee is ♥♥♥♥ as a result of this lol.

Actually no. AC universe is set up as to make you a typical "cannon fodder" mercenary handling combat requests. Thing with combat requests is that you'll face many enemies on the field, and you gotta have great ranged combat mechanics that way.

On the other hand, AC's melee is designed to be a spare "one-swing-kill" type of weapons--which sacrifices distance & boost energy in favor of nearly unlimited ammo & instant heavy blows. To complement this, AC games often only have 3 types of melee weapons: decent ranged one (laser blades), heavy blow ones (pile drivers), and joke ones (physical blades, demolisher gloves, etc).

In a game where guns & cannons can kill you in an instant, you really don't have time for a combo chain.

[Faunts]

I'm not even going to bother quoting all of this because there is way too much to cover lol.

First off, I have never really liked the maps we have so far. Mechs and claustrophobic arenas don't mix from my perspective. Which is why I think the devs should widen things up with more open maps, or at the very least give us an open Workshop for the community to build such maps. I would like to have more room to skii and glide rather than run around in circles.

Second, guns should not be a distance compensator, it limits a lot of build potential. Oh boy, what am I going to build my mech as? Ranged/melee? Melee? Or double melee? I'm all for build variety, and limiting weapons for very specific situations is dumb especially for a game that boasts heavy customization.

Versus doesn't have customization, instead you have the weapon selection of what the mobile suit offers. I'm not saying this game isn't compairable to Versus, but the customization is very different so applying the some load out logic from Versus isn't applicable.

My point is not to make the game EXACTLY like AC, but instead borrowing from what AC has done. Believe me I want this to be an ideal mecha game on PC, so inviting some elements from other mecha titles wouldn't hurt. I have acknowledged that AC's targeting system isn't beneficial to melee builds at all, but making an inspired targeting system from AC would most certainly help.

[TheRibbonRed]

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

Second, guns should not be a distance compensator, it limits a lot of build potential. Oh boy, what am I going to build my mech as? Ranged/melee? Melee? Or double melee? I'm all for build variety, and limiting weapons for very specific situations is dumb especially for a game that boasts heavy customization.

Just saying what the game seems to intentionally say.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

Versus doesn't have customization, instead you have the weapon selection of what the mobile suit offers. I'm not saying this game isn't compairable to Versus, but the customization is very different so applying the some load out logic from Versus isn't applicable.

You could say the same thing for Armored Core's major emphasis on ranged weapon in comparison to Archangel's combo-based melee.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

My point is not to make the game EXACTLY like AC, but instead borrowing from what AC has done. Believe me I want this to be an ideal mecha game on PC, so inviting some elements from other mecha titles wouldn't hurt. I have acknowledged that AC's targeting system isn't beneficial to melee builds at all, but making an inspired targeting system from AC would most certainly help.

We'll see if Indigo's gonna have a look at this, or they're just gonna ignore all of this and continue as "planned".

[Faunts]

TheRibbonRed původně napsal:

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

Second, guns should not be a distance compensator, it limits a lot of build potential. Oh boy, what am I going to build my mech as? Ranged/melee? Melee? Or double melee? I'm all for build variety, and limiting weapons for very specific situations is dumb especially for a game that boasts heavy customization.

Just saying what the game seems to intentionally say.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

Versus doesn't have customization, instead you have the weapon selection of what the mobile suit offers. I'm not saying this game isn't compairable to Versus, but the customization is very different so applying the some load out logic from Versus isn't applicable.

You could say the same thing for Armored Core's major emphasis on ranged weapon in comparison to Archangel's combo-based melee.

#NotMyRagna (Peter) původně napsal:

My point is not to make the game EXACTLY like AC, but instead borrowing from what AC has done. Believe me I want this to be an ideal mecha game on PC, so inviting some elements from other mecha titles wouldn't hurt. I have acknowledged that AC's targeting system isn't beneficial to melee builds at all, but making an inspired targeting system from AC would most certainly help.

We'll see if Indigo's gonna have a look at this, or they're just gonna ignore all of this and continue as "planned".

If they do over look this I will be pretty disappointed. I guess I wouldn't be playing Horde at all lol.

But you are correct, all we can do is wait and see.

[Alfonso Matador]

These are all great feedback! Thanks for posting them.

The lock-on system is honestly something that we find lacking and would like to improve in the future. As you can probably tell, the lock-on system is completely built for 1v1 scenarios and does not really work will with multiple targets. This is something that we'll need to do a lot of research on and feedback like these helps a lot.

In the meantime, you can enable "AUTOMATICALLY SWITCH TARGETS" in the OPTIONS menu to immediately switch targets when you eliminate enemies.

[Ilshavoh]

I'd like to chime in to say that we are in fact reading the steam forums. Don't worry, we exist.

IMO?

Armored Core has a very different focus for the most part in how you deal with enemies. I'm inclined to disagree that AC's targeting system can be described as "easily lock onto targets and switch targets quickly without much of a fuss. "

You had to constantly wiggle your right stick ( Or if you were playing the games before Fromsoft decided Analog sticks existed, fiddle with the shoulder buttons to look up/down/left/right ) to keep track of things.

This was on top of having to handle your bunny hopping ( AC3 and below ) and Quickboost/Turn adjustments ( AC4+FA) while moving.

Alternately, you just kind of faced your AC towards something that needed to be shot, and then you shot it until it died. Then let the autotargeter find the next thing that's within your lockbox, assuming it doesn't move much.

This is great for fighting MTs and nobodies that weren't also in NEXT/ACs equal to the player. But once you found someone who would move up and down rapidly, trying to aim and manage everything else quickly went to chaos.

With this in mind, I'm much more supportive of how GVG handles multi target locking. Maybe I need to git gud with AC's aiming system, but I found myself playing around it more than I adapted to it, by building ACs that cared not for how much you jumped.

[TheRibbonRed]

Well this is a nice surprise. Thanks for reading our opinions! :)

Alfonso Matador původně napsal:

In the meantime, you can enable "AUTOMATICALLY SWITCH TARGETS" in the OPTIONS menu to immediately switch targets when you eliminate enemies.

I did, but unfortunately the system isn’t foolproof. As soon as the player finishes the enemy that’s in front of them, the targeting system doesn’t immediately lock to anything left that’s in the player’s blindside. And with how often HORDE enemies go after the player from multiple directions, this can be bothersome.

Digibunny původně napsal:

With this in mind, I'm much more supportive of how GVG handles multi target locking. Maybe I need to git gud with AC's aiming system, but I found myself playing around it more than I adapted to it, by building ACs that cared not for how much you jumped.

Ayy, glad I was able to read your intentions from playing the game, I guess.

You don’t really need to “Git Gud” with AC’s aiming system though, as I often find myself against players that have superb spatial awareness and doesn’t require locking to hit you. This is why most AC experts equip at least 1 laser sword & also why the aiming-less sniper cannons of ACVD are popular. You "Git Gud" through positioning yourself over your enemies--something I could never do.

[Faunts]

Digibunny původně napsal:

I'd like to chime in to say that we are in fact reading the steam forums. Don't worry, we exist.

IMO?

Armored Core has a very different focus for the most part in how you deal with enemies. I'm inclined to disagree that AC's targeting system can be described as "easily lock onto targets and switch targets quickly without much of a fuss. "

You had to constantly wiggle your right stick ( Or if you were playing the games before Fromsoft decided Analog sticks existed, fiddle with the shoulder buttons to look up/down/left/right ) to keep track of things.

This was on top of having to handle your bunny hopping ( AC3 and below ) and Quickboost/Turn adjustments ( AC4+FA) while moving.

Alternately, you just kind of faced your AC towards something that needed to be shot, and then you shot it until it died. Then let the autotargeter find the next thing that's within your lockbox, assuming it doesn't move much.

This is great for fighting MTs and nobodies that weren't also in NEXT/ACs equal to the player. But once you found someone who would move up and down rapidly, trying to aim and manage everything else quickly went to chaos.

With this in mind, I'm much more supportive of how GVG handles multi target locking. Maybe I need to git gud with AC's aiming system, but I found myself playing around it more than I adapted to it, by building ACs that cared not for how much you jumped.

Thank you for responding! I was a little worried you guys might be caught up on Discord.

And yeah I agree AC isn't perfect, but for small low HP targets it isn't half bad. I didn't have as many issues with it as a kid, but then again I had plenty of time to spend fiddling around with the control schemes lol.

If you guys want to give a personal list of examples for what you think might work best I'd love to hear it. Right now I think it's pretty up in the air outside of just "it needs improvement".

[obliviondoll]

First, definitely don't think AC's targeting mechanics fit this game.

That said, I think a very simple to understand solution would be the best one.

When locked on, right stick (which otherwise doesn't do anything) to change target. For mouse and keyboard, scroll wheel to cycle targets. Both options are common and simple to understand for players. Can't say for sure how easy it would be to implement but it's an obvious solution to the problem on the surface.

[Faunts]

obliviondoll původně napsal:

First, definitely don't think AC's targeting mechanics fit this game.

That said, I think a very simple to understand solution would be the best one.

When locked on, right stick (which otherwise doesn't do anything) to change target. For mouse and keyboard, scroll wheel to cycle targets. Both options are common and simple to understand for players. Can't say for sure how easy it would be to implement but it's an obvious solution to the problem on the surface.

Once again "a targeting system LIKE Armored Core's". I don't understand why people seem to be having trouble with this.

I also disagree, because that wouldn't fix the fact that they come at you from all directions. If you're constantly sifting through targets that just makes it needlessly complicated.

If your argument is to balance this out with the 1v1 content, then perhaps a horde mode shouldn't have been implemented all together. Anything like what we have currently simply is not fit for more than one target on a screen.

[obliviondoll]

If they're coming from all directions, EITHER quick-swap with a direction as noted (with camera settings adjusting how jarring the spin is), OR just unlock and turn then relock once you've changed direction.

A simple way to switch targets like I mentioned would solve the worst of the problems for horde mode, and retain the core mechanics as they stand instead of ground-up rebuild of major parts of the game.

And for a system to be "like" AC, it would have to not have a proper lock-on functionality like what G:A is build around as a foundation of the combat system. Taking that central point away makes the game no longer work. In order to make a targeting system like what AC uses, literally every other element of the game would need to be redesigned as well to compensate, INCLUDING horde mode.

[Faunts]

obliviondoll původně napsal:

If they're coming from all directions, EITHER quick-swap with a direction as noted (with camera settings adjusting how jarring the spin is), OR just unlock and turn then relock once you've changed direction.

A simple way to switch targets like I mentioned would solve the worst of the problems for horde mode, and retain the core mechanics as they stand instead of ground-up rebuild of major parts of the game.

And for a system to be "like" AC, it would have to not have a proper lock-on functionality like what G:A is build around as a foundation of the combat system. Taking that central point away makes the game no longer work. In order to make a targeting system like what AC uses, literally every other element of the game would need to be redesigned as well to compensate, INCLUDING horde mode.

And you can already do that in the game right now.... It doesn't work anywhere near as smoothly as it should. I have tested the Horde Mode out with different builds, different strategies, and I can say for a fact "just locking on and locking off" is disorientating with how the camera functions and while you are being hit from all directions. Sorry, it is a no.

But that's the problem, this targeting system has stayed pretty much the same since open beta without improving itself in the slightest. I'm actually very disappointed the devs didn't think of this BEFORE even releasing horde mode. It was alright for 1v1 but at this point it has simply become outdated.

First of all, you haven't read anything that was said above, have you? I understand it is a lot to read, but a large portion of important information was discussed back and forth regarding this.
Secondly, you are making this sound more dramatic than it actually is. You don't have to tear the game a new ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to fix this, I'm saying that a targeting system with more camera control involving mouse look rather than locking positions would not only work just fine in 1v1 but it would work in Horde as well.

If this is just a matter of you not wanting to change a system because it doesn't fit your personal playstyle, then I'm sorry, but that is not what we are here to discuss. This system needs thorough improvement and just holding things back because it won't fit your niche style of 1v1 is not an option from my perspective.

[TheRibbonRed]

Hopeful Bliss (Peter) původně napsal:

But that's the problem, this targeting system has stayed pretty much the same since open beta without improving itself in the slightest. I'm actually very disappointed the devs didn't think of this BEFORE even releasing horde mode.

After checking out the latest stream, I'm convinced that the dev team are just doing whatever they want first--or at least something from their Discord/forum/wherever they gather their needs, and sometimes read the Steam forums.

It's not that I'm asking the Steam forums to be prioritized, but at least have some critical thinking before implementing/planning to implement stuff. With the Gacha debacle and this, I can't help myself but to think that the dev team are a bit naive.