Why is the only released non-binary option so "tokenized?"

[nikonekonyaa]

(disclosure, I'm trans)

Why is the non-binary option so tokenized?

They're missing from all the advertising and original lineup despite the game heavily leaning on the LGBT aspect that includes a nonbinary option. On top of that they look half the age of the other characters, is a student (highschool or college???), and is wearing a sweater with the trans flag colours and lists social justice as a like. These are basically all the stereotypes of the very negative "tumblr transman softboy," and you even drew them to have a taken in feminine waist and femme features despite supposedly being gender ambiguous/nonbinary. <note, I don't think there's anything wrong with being femme or not being hypermasc as an afab trans person, but that is the stereotype.

It's just really disappointing to me that you basically created a uwu softboy/tomboy lesbian who's a small femme as the nonbinary/trans option - They couldn't at least be as tall as the dudes, or does everyone afab have to be tiny and waifish? It feels extremely lazy to me, especially since none of the other characters have rainbow flags plastered on them or "gay rights" in their likes section. Everyone else gets interesting jobs and descriptions, like a club owner, financial businessman, painter, but the nonbinary/trans option just gets to be infantilized by not even being old enough to have their own career. They're even ambiguous white so you didn't have to worry about racial features or other culture's variations on nonbinary.

There's so many variations of trans and nonbinary you could have, visually, gone for that doesn't even have to be so token. You could have gone more towards a design that resembles Chaz Bono or even Lea DeLaria (who is butch lesbian but whose looks could be considered non gender conforming). Miles Jai on twitter is genderfluid amab and pulls off masc and femme looks beautifully. Their job could have been a makeup artist like Stef Sanjati, a model or performer (even drag performers have a high rate of trans people participating!). Hell, I even know a lot of nonbinary/trans friends who are in the arts, own comic book stores, are baristas, programmers, writers, burlesque performers, etc. Hell, even Wars and Peass has a comic where a princess now identifies as a prince that comes off as more romantic and less offensive than this character.

Why go for the most boring, infantilized and negative stereotypical representations of a nonbinary/trans person when you could have chosen so many others to base them off of?

[adam1224]

I get it where do you come from, and they recently added a CAT to the game. With that in place and a 2019 release date, it wouldn't be a stretch if they would include more options. As a boring straight guy I just hope that whatever they plan to add, they will make it at a good quality. Just as you said, token characters suck, if they don't have the personality and originality to them, they just devalue what they stand for.

[kiwihotaru]

Hi cook lasagne! Sorry we hurt you -- we're a small team, and although we do have a trans team member, none of us are non-binary, so it's no surprise we would make some mistakes. Thank you for giving us feedback!

First, as a clarification, we were holding Glaive as a special reveal/announcement, known only to press before the Kickstarter went live. We held the trailer, the cat, Glaive, and other details secret/under embargo, in order to make the campaign more likely to get coverage. We've announced each weapon-friend one at a time to maximize visibility with press.

But we will probably keep making mistakes. We are taking a risk by trying to be inclusive, and we're doing the best we can, but please be patient with us while we learn. I feel we're being braver than most teams out there. We chose Glaive's design because we thought they were cute/attractive, and very different from the other weapons, and was inspired by several friends I have.

And, a bit of good news:
- we'll be revising Glaive's design soon (this may take some time, as we want to get it right)
- we've revealed our second non-binary character, Rowan Blair, and reached them as a stretch goal, and I think that although they have some things in common with Glaive, they're also a very different personality type
- with the Kickstarter going so well, we can definitely afford to hire a few consultants to help advise on sensitivity/inclusivity and give us a better chance of overcoming our blind spots :)

Anyway, my apologies again for any misunderstandings and hurtful mistakes made on my part. Please don't hold my team accountable, as I am the primary designer.

I hope you have a good day.

[Darsyn]

Hey, Cook Lasagne - as non-trans writer, I am glad that you wrote that question because it was actually really helpful to think about. Thank you for writing that down!

[Alphacranberries]

(Not trans or NB but...) I'm also not a huge fan of Glaive, but I kinda get that there's a risk when trying to be inclusive. When there are millions of options for how to be inclusive, you inevitably end up excluding a lot of people when you choose which one way you're going to be inclusive. I think the devs should definitely take the criticism to heart, but not trip over themselves to conform to every criticism. No matter how well they do, someone is going to be disappointed.

[nikonekonyaa]

Hey Kiwi, sorry for the late reply, been moving and inbetween places.

Thanks so much for your reply, especially being open about whether you have trans/nb people on the team. I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me on this.

I'm happy to hear that you already had plans to redesign their outfit. I understand you wanted to go with someone who was out and proud about their identity but it really did come across as a tokenized stereotype, especially with the trans flag motif. I won't hold it against you for wanting to keep the character more under wraps either - I've seen the way coverage of indie games go when it gets "gay" and the backlash trans/nb characters create. After hearing your explanation for it I can see why you chose to do it, and why it came across like that when you intended it to be (probably) a purely business motivated decision.

If I can throw some suggestions forward - Having a chubbier character might help with keeping them androgynous but still looking adorable/cute. The article "ASK DAPPERQ: CURVY ANDROGYNY?" on Dapperq's site has some good examples (and the pink cheeks/rosacea look can help). You could go the other direction and juxtapose some muscle against soft prints and styles, going from men's blouse + shoes + dress ("Japanese High School Holds "Sex Change Day"" on Kotaku for an example) all the way to LadyBeard. You could also play with facial hair a la Conchita Wurst or from RuPaul's beard challenge. Just don't forget that a lot of POC are trans/nb and express it their own ways (like "studs") and you have a lot to play with there.

Worst case, and something that could save you time in the long term development wise versus redesigns, is having alternative costumes. If everyone has a goofy unlockable that has rainbow flags, bisexual pride colours, and transgender pride flag colours, it'll be a lot less jarring.

It sounds like you're making an effort though. Again, thank you for discussing this - especially since my comment probably came across pretty negatively - and making an effort to include this representation in your game. I'll definitely be keeping an eye out on the project's development, and you're free to contact me in the future about this stuff if you'd like.

Thanks again!!!

[DaetherX]

Without context to anything else, a great androgynous character design IMO is Desire from the Sandman graphic novels. The art design changed from story arc to story arc in the graphic novels... because they are different artists... but s/he appears in "A Game of You" IIRC, because I think all of the Endless are in that one.

Also I just love the series. Neil Gaiman knew how to do "inclusiveness" right, having different religions deities / figures appear, gay / lesbian characters, a trans woman who spoke one of my favorite lines. They were all just flawed people with their own sh** going on, who happened to be those things.

Anyway, I'm rambling now.

[Alphacranberries]

Originally posted by DaetherX:

Without context to anything else, a great androgynous character design IMO is Desire from the Sandman graphic novels. The art design changed from story arc to story arc in the graphic novels... because they are different artists... but s/he appears in "A Game of You" IIRC, because I think all of the Endless are in that one.

Also I just love the series. Neil Gaiman knew how to do "inclusiveness" right, having different religions deities / figures appear, gay / lesbian characters, a trans woman who spoke one of my favorite lines. They were all just flawed people with their own sh** going on, who happened to be those things.

Anyway, I'm rambling now.

I 100% agre with all of this.

[Temp]

Also, why should the devs listen to the complaints of people who aren't NB? Especially one who equate trans men and drag queens with non-binary people. Seems like the blind leading the blind.

[adam1224]

Because pointing out that something is wrong is easier than making it good. Like I can tell a black or gay token character in movie, while being neither of the two. Or a bad bread while not being a baker. Simple. :) Then someone who has the knowledge to fix it (like the devs, who are working on the game, with external help if needed), will fix it.

[Temp]

You can also be wrong and have no actual insight.

[Little Strawberry]

Originally posted by Temp:

Also, why should the devs listen to the complaints of people who aren't NB? Especially one who equate trans men and drag queens with non-binary people. Seems like the blind leading the blind.

I don't think this should have anything to do with the inclusion of someones personal stance in life in the first place, because this game isn't about having a date with yourself (though nothing wrong with being a narcissist). It's more about supply and demand. "I want to date this type of character, please add it", is a valid opinion to have and it doesn't matter what you identify as. It's your preference. If you like neapolitan pizza, then you don't have to be an italian to want it and at the same time another customer gets served their pineapple pizza.

What I do agree on with you, is that I find it weird when characters are appropriated, "They have to be this way and they can't do X or Z!". That's like being a virtual sexual predator who forces themselves on fictional characters.

[Florence]

Honestly I really liked Sawyer's old design. Their new one is great too, but I have to admit, I'd love it if we had the option to use their old one. I was basically in love with that glaive at first sight!

I realize this original post is pretty old, but honestly, the kind of hate leveled at Sawyer here is extremely frustrating to me. I'm non-binary myself, and I absolutely adore them, both of their designs, and their entire characterization as of yet.

I'm not saying everyone has to love the character, but I really hope the devs haven't been mislead into believing NO ONE loves Sawyer.

[Alphacranberries]

I don't know if it's necessarily "hate" that's going around (mostly).

Overall, I think it's just people being hyper-critical. And, honestly, I understand why. With the way representation is in games, you're lucky if you get ONE major non-binary character in a year. So, since people only really get one character, they want it to fit their idea of perfect. Any deviation from that gets picked apart and critiqued for anything that could possibly be viewed as problematic.

I sincerely think this wouldn't be the case if it was a more common character type, but that's just conjecture.

[Captain Kek]

Originally posted by kiwihotaru:

Hi cook lasagne! Sorry we hurt you -- we're a small team, and although we do have a trans team member, none of us are non-binary, so it's no surprise we would make some mistakes. Thank you for giving us feedback!

First, as a clarification, we were holding Glaive as a special reveal/announcement, known only to press before the Kickstarter went live. We held the trailer, the cat, Glaive, and other details secret/under embargo, in order to make the campaign more likely to get coverage. We've announced each weapon-friend one at a time to maximize visibility with press.

But we will probably keep making mistakes. We are taking a risk by trying to be inclusive, and we're doing the best we can, but please be patient with us while we learn. I feel we're being braver than most teams out there. We chose Glaive's design because we thought they were cute/attractive, and very different from the other weapons, and was inspired by several friends I have.

And, a bit of good news:
- we'll be revising Glaive's design soon (this may take some time, as we want to get it right)
- we've revealed our second non-binary character, Rowan Blair, and reached them as a stretch goal, and I think that although they have some things in common with Glaive, they're also a very different personality type
- with the Kickstarter going so well, we can definitely afford to hire a few consultants to help advise on sensitivity/inclusivity and give us a better chance of overcoming our blind spots :)

Anyway, my apologies again for any misunderstandings and hurtful mistakes made on my part. Please don't hold my team accountable, as I am the primary designer.

I hope you have a good day.

My take (being nonbinary for what it's worth) is that it's impossible to please everyone. There are nonbinary folks of all sorts, so any nonbinary character is accurate to some degree or another. In this day and age someone will criticize you and the representation in your work regardless of what you do, so it isn't worth worrying too much over.
I thought the character was fine if a bit generic, but tbh I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily since there isn't any right or wrong way to portray being nonbinary.

I guess the best advice I could give when it comes to portraying a nonbinary person is that we tend to care far less about gender than trans or cis people. Trans and cis people both have a strong drive compelling them to be masculine or feminine, but for us it all seems kind of alien tbh. We try to have empathy for those with gender based concerns (both trans and cis people), but we don't really experience it so its like a person who is colorblind having empathy for a person who doesn't like wearing pink since a colorblind person would have a limited ability to conceptualize what pink is.
Hopefully that makes sense, it's a difficult thing to explain.

[gladhwen]

I feel for anyone reading the original thread who presents similarly to Sawyer/Glaive, or has someone similar in their life. With all the pressure to conform and fit in, it feels exclusionary and unwelcoming to say there's "right" ways to go against the grain. Is there really a wrong way to be trans?