can you use a real flight stick ?

[Achillezzz]

Or is this using a virtual flight stick with your typical VR controllers? I'm curious how this would work.

thanks

[Mathmatics]

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

If you want a joystick here is an idea for you: create your own joystick that basically just has the controller sit in it

I seen on the discord someone actually did that. I use hotas for dcs and il2 but I really like this games setup and would not use my hotas even if it was an option.

[Exigeous]

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

If you want a joystick here is an idea for you: create your own joystick that basically just has the controller sit in it

Spoken by someone who CLEARLY doesn't own a HOTAS or understand the difference in feel and precision. And really, I should build HARDWARE to compensate for crappy software? Really?

[Xuild]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

If you want a joystick here is an idea for you: create your own joystick that basically just has the controller sit in it

Spoken by someone who CLEARLY doesn't own a HOTAS or understand the difference in feel and precision. And really, I should build HARDWARE to compensate for crappy software? Really?

It was just an idea and yes I don't have HOTAS. And I would say that it would feel like an actual flight stick since flight sticks are hard.

[醉仙望月]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

Spoken by someone who CLEARLY doesn't own a HOTAS or understand the difference in feel and precision.

The developer must own HOTAS and understand this. He said in an interview:

When I got an HTC Vive, I was impressed by how accurately the controllers were being tracked and wanted to see if I could use them as flight controls in a virtual cockpit.
It was working so well so I built the rest of the game around that.

Now he has developed Jetborne Racing with the same system and it supports players using physical HOTAS or virtual joysticks to race together.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1397650/Jetborne_Racing/
Many players on the global leaderboards who prefer virtual joysticks are not inferior to those who use physical HOTAS.

---

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

And really, I should build HARDWARE to compensate for crappy software? Really?

There is a mod that allows you to use physical HOTAS as flight controls in VTOL VR. You still need the motion controller to interact with the instruments in the virtual cockpit.
https://vtolvr-mods.com/mod/duaf6ktc/
If you use HOTAS, you need to fix it in a specific place instead of simply putting it on the table in front of you, otherwise your table may block your hands from interacting with some objects in the cockpit.

[Exigeous]

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

It was just an idea and yes I don't have HOTAS.

THIS is why you're saying what you're saying - in short you don't know what you're talking about, I'm not trying to be rude about that I'm just stating facts.

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

And I would say that it would feel like an actual flight stick since flight sticks are hard.

Not in the SLIGHTEST would it feel "like an actual stick" - none of the controllers are shaped like sticks, they don't have a layout like a stick and even it you could somehow mount a single controller you would never get the level of fidelity out of a tracked motion controller you'd get out of an actual joysitck.

There is a reason fighter pilots don't wave their hands around but rather have them both locked on a stick and throttle. Tell you what, spend a few hours with an actual HOTAS setup then try to tell me that anything you could do with tracked controllers would be ANYTHING comparable to that (as it absolutely will not be).

Back to the main point - it's hard to understand why we simply aren't given the choice - you don't have a HOTAS and want to wave your hands around then great, that's your choice - but why not let those of us with real controls who want to get much closer to the experience of the real thing actual controls - win win.

~X

[醉仙望月]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

There is a reason fighter pilots don't wave their hands around but rather have them both locked on a stick and throttle.

Not wave their hands around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEPChAt9AsM
Once you grab the virtual joystick and throttle, the system sensibly manages a "soft lock" that allows you to move your hand to a more comfortable position even if it is longer aligned with the virtual stick. This means you can easily rest the bottom of the motion controller on your thigh or knee for support, and to serve as a pivot.

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

Tell you what, spend a few hours with an actual HOTAS setup then try to tell me that anything you could do with tracked controllers would be ANYTHING comparable to that (as it absolutely will not be).

Tell you what, in previous versions of Jetborne Racing, many players using physical HOTAS criticized that the table where they placed their HOTAS in front of them blocked their hands from interacting with some objects in the virtual cockpit and they could not even click the quit button. The developer had to add shortcut key bindings to the cockpit functions for HOTAS players.
Jetborne Racing is just a racing game and its cockpit function is not the focus. But one of the most important features of VTOL VR is that the player reaches out to interact with the cockpit.

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

Back to the main point - it's hard to understand why we simply aren't given the choice - you don't have a HOTAS and want to wave your hands around then great, that's your choice - but why not let those of us with real controls who want to get much closer to the experience of the real thing actual controls - win win.

The developer has answered your question in an interview:

I agree that it's a bit of a trade-off, but I think there are huge advantages to relying only on the motion controls. It's much more accessible since you don't need any extra hardware, and it helps to maintain immersion since your hands are consistently being tracked. I can also create any configuration of a vehicle or virtual cockpit and you wouldn't need to reconfigure any physical controls to match it.

If the game gives you the choice for HOTAS and you want a good experience, the virtual cockpit needs to be redesigned so that all interactive objects are higher than the table where the physical HOTAS is placed. Or the game has to add laser pointers, mouse and keyboard shortcuts like DCS. Then why don't you play DCS instead?
https://vtolvr-mods.com/mod/duaf6ktc/
There is a mod that allows you to use HOTAS in VTOL VR. You can experience frequently picking up and putting down the motion controller to interact with the cockpit, if your hands are not blocked by your table.

[Mastah]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

Back to the main point - it's hard to understand why we simply aren't given the choice - you don't have a HOTAS and want to wave your hands around then great, that's your choice - but why not let those of us with real controls who want to get much closer to the experience of the real thing actual controls - win win.

~X

VTOL is not an hardcore SIM with no allowed space for some actual game design, it's a VR game specifically designed around interacting with a fully working cockpit with your hands, designed by a guy tired of seeing motion controllers relegated to just being glorified laser pointers and mostly played by like-minded people.

If you want to play with an HOTAS you have plenty of choice beside VTOL VR, in fact if you play basically any other flying game you have only the HOTAS as a good option, VTOL VR is one of the very few flying games entirely designed around motion controllers.

Yep, the motion controller can't reach the same level of precision that a good HOTAS can, but they're good enough (especially anything lighthouse tracked) that the difference is well beyond most people skill level.
If you can't do aerial refuelling with a motion controller an HOTAS won't change a thing.

I wouldn't normally say "if you don't like it go make your game with hotas support" but since this is exactly how this game was born I encourage you to do so, at least we would have 2 games in this very niche of trying to balance realism and arcade without fully going in one direction.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

It was just an idea and yes I don't have HOTAS.

THIS is why you're saying what you're saying - in short you don't know what you're talking about, I'm not trying to be rude about that I'm just stating facts.

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

And I would say that it would feel like an actual flight stick since flight sticks are hard.

Not in the SLIGHTEST would it feel "like an actual stick" - none of the controllers are shaped like sticks, they don't have a layout like a stick and even it you could somehow mount a single controller you would never get the level of fidelity out of a tracked motion controller you'd get out of an actual joysitck.

There is a reason fighter pilots don't wave their hands around but rather have them both locked on a stick and throttle. Tell you what, spend a few hours with an actual HOTAS setup then try to tell me that anything you could do with tracked controllers would be ANYTHING comparable to that (as it absolutely will not be).

Back to the main point - it's hard to understand why we simply aren't given the choice - you don't have a HOTAS and want to wave your hands around then great, that's your choice - but why not let those of us with real controls who want to get much closer to the experience of the real thing actual controls - win win.

~X

Let me respond to your question, with a question.

How much digital real-estate can you get into a HOTAS before the HOTAS you desire becomes a $500 premium piece of equipment?

From $50 HOTAS units with 10 whole buttons, a hat, and a rocker, to the $500 HOTAS Warthog with high-end toggles, several DOZEN buttons in every location, three hat switches, multiple rockers, no less than four toggles, a mouse cursor control on the throttle, split throttles, etc...

To what standard do we make HOTAS support work? Bear in mind, that any feature you can't somehow squeeze into the HOTAS !!MUST!! go on a virtual panel somewhere. And if you have a virtual panel, you have to figure out how someone is going to both HOLD their HOTAS, as well as quickly grab and use their VR control devices without fumbling around like a blind idiot. Because yes, when you're trying to fumble for your Oculus touch controllers, hanging from your wrists by their safety straps, you're taking some delicate seconds to do so, unless you like banging them into each other or slinging them like an arbalest.


You are asking for a thing, but you are not taking the wider market into account in doing so. The HOTAS we have are gamer approximations for most generic brands, and reproductions of existing real aircraft HOTAS systems for the high-end stuff. And the aircraft reproductions, if you stop to recall, are custom designed for the avionics of the aircraft model they go into.

As much as I'd love the tactile feedback of an actual throttle in my hands (because holding a virtual collective stick in my left hand in open space is a nightmare of sore muscles after ten minutes or less), I wonder how you would intend to solve the issue of packing the functionality of the avionics system into a control scheme that would support as wide a range of HOTAS units as possible, and still have a user interface that can access everything quickly, and not conflict with the literal requirement of having the motion controls in your hands at the same time.



I'm not arguing that we shouldn't have HOTAS support. I'm asking if you have an idea to solve the problem I just posited to you. I'm not saying: 'If you don't have a solution, don't post', but I would like to ask if you have an IDEA that you could nudge the DEV's way that would contribute to getting the support you want. I can think of a FEW ways to do it, but both require a significant investment of time and money to develop.

1: Is design new motion controls that give you finger tracking while having an open, free palm that allows you to grab real-life physical objects without interfering with game play. Most likely in the form of actual gloves, with all the equipment on the back of the hand and wrist. Don't know where the buttons and sticks will go... Let me just empty my wallet full of millions here...

2: Create a minimalist HOTAS interface that makes use of 8 buttons or less in VTOL VR that can quickly sort through everything in the combined MFDs in very short order. Never mind the trial and error that will occur trying to figure out how to nest menus, prioritize functions, and create a navigation tree that doesn't leave you spending thirty seconds to do with your HOTAS what you could reach out and do with two quick button presses.


See? This is not a quick and easy gimme.

[Xuild]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

It was just an idea and yes I don't have HOTAS.

THIS is why you're saying what you're saying - in short you don't know what you're talking about, I'm not trying to be rude about that I'm just stating facts.

Publicado originalmente por Xuild:

And I would say that it would feel like an actual flight stick since flight sticks are hard.

Not in the SLIGHTEST would it feel "like an actual stick" - none of the controllers are shaped like sticks, they don't have a layout like a stick and even it you could somehow mount a single controller you would never get the level of fidelity out of a tracked motion controller you'd get out of an actual joysitck.

There is a reason fighter pilots don't wave their hands around but rather have them both locked on a stick and throttle. Tell you what, spend a few hours with an actual HOTAS setup then try to tell me that anything you could do with tracked controllers would be ANYTHING comparable to that (as it absolutely will not be).

Back to the main point - it's hard to understand why we simply aren't given the choice - you don't have a HOTAS and want to wave your hands around then great, that's your choice - but why not let those of us with real controls who want to get much closer to the experience of the real thing actual controls - win win.

~X

Then modify the controller some more.

[Exigeous]

This thread absolutely cracks me up. Being told by players who don't own a HOTAS, haven't used a HOTAS that it's somehow bad, or not necessary that a FLIGHT game include support is, well, hysterical. This entire thread could be summed up by the Dunning Krueger effect.

So you guys go right ahead and enjoy waving your hands around, using some silly mount thing to fly a aircraft with a motion controller and think that's anywhere near as good, or even close to the same experience as an actual HOTAS. Hopefully that makes you feel better about not having one as I'm done wasting my time on this thread. It's nothing but excuse after excuse to justify a lazy decision. I'm glad you enjoy such a simple and basic "flight" experience, that's great for you. Those of us that have moved beyond such child like gameplay will enjoy our actual hardware controllers.

Just, wow, HAHAHAHA, ahd this has been great. Thanks everyone for the laughs.

[AdmiralTigerclaw]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

This thread absolutely cracks me up. Being told by players who don't own a HOTAS, haven't used a HOTAS that it's somehow bad, or not necessary that a FLIGHT game include support is, well, hysterical. This entire thread could be summed up by the Dunning Krueger effect.

So you guys go right ahead and enjoy waving your hands around, using some silly mount thing to fly a aircraft with a motion controller and think that's anywhere near as good, or even close to the same experience as an actual HOTAS. Hopefully that makes you feel better about not having one as I'm done wasting my time on this thread. It's nothing but excuse after excuse to justify a lazy decision. I'm glad you enjoy such a simple and basic "flight" experience, that's great for you. Those of us that have moved beyond such child like gameplay will enjoy our actual hardware controllers.

Just, wow, HAHAHAHA, ahd this has been great. Thanks everyone for the laughs.

Hey, Exi. You gonna' answer my question? Or are you just going to take a dump on all those nay-sayers because they 'wave their hands around'? Why are you even concerned about 'waving your hands around' anyway? You got an audience watching your every move and you're too self-conscious to be caught 'waving your hands around'?

Anyway, for the record, I have a HOTAS, and used to have a HOTAS Warthog. (I still have the stick, but something fried the throttle, and Thrustmaster coated the PCBs with moisture sealant*, so I couldn't do a tear-down and repair it.)

((Also, just looked at your setup. That sim-pit is wicked sick. Too bad I don't have the space to go all-in like that. I've wanted to for years, but I have to budget my space.))


Incidentally, given that you have not played but ~19 minutes (0.3 hrs on record) of VTOL VR, I don't think you have any more room to talk than the people who've never had a HOTAS. 19 minutes is enough time to, maybe, listen to a flight tutorial on how to fly a basic AV-42. It's not enough time to get comfortable with the control scheme, and certainly not enough time to declare your inherent superiority over everyone else here.

That being said, simmer down with the elitist attitude, it doesn't convince anyone.

Also, I found a mod for HOTAS support, but you have to be XML savvy to make use of it.

Mod site here: https://vtolvr-mods.com/

The mod itself is called 'VTOLVR Physical Input'.

However, all mods require the mod-installer to function, and the mod-installer, while it is usable, trips a microsoft virus protection protocol (which the site warns you about, and explains why).

Short version: The mod-installer does active code injection, which virus protection picks up as a potential trojan.


*Various moisture sealants for PCBs dry into a shell not unlike hard candy, except stronger, and probably doesn't taste very good anyway. They don't melt away easily so trying to solder through it is impossible unless you have the right chemicals to dissolve it. And that alone can be a guessing game.

[醉仙望月]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

So you guys go right ahead and enjoy waving your hands around, using some silly mount thing to fly a aircraft with a motion controller and think that's anywhere near as good, or even close to the same experience as an actual HOTAS. Hopefully that makes you feel better about not having one as I'm done wasting my time on this thread. It's nothing but excuse after excuse to justify a lazy decision. I'm glad you enjoy such a simple and basic "flight" experience, that's great for you. Those of us that have moved beyond such child like gameplay will enjoy our actual hardware controllers.

VTOL VR is a VR exclusive game made from the ground up specifically around motion controllers, and its most important feature is that it only relies on motion controllers for cockpit interaction.
If you don’t like motion controllers, why did you choose to play this game?
It's like asking why Half-Life: Alyx doesn't support mouse & keyboard like other FPS games.

[Mastah]

Publicado originalmente por Exigeous:

This thread absolutely cracks me up. Being told by players who don't own a HOTAS, haven't used a HOTAS that it's somehow bad, or not necessary that a FLIGHT game include support is, well, hysterical. This entire thread could be summed up by the Dunning Krueger effect.

So you guys go right ahead and enjoy waving your hands around, using some silly mount thing to fly a aircraft with a motion controller and think that's anywhere near as good, or even close to the same experience as an actual HOTAS. Hopefully that makes you feel better about not having one as I'm done wasting my time on this thread. It's nothing but excuse after excuse to justify a lazy decision. I'm glad you enjoy such a simple and basic "flight" experience, that's great for you. Those of us that have moved beyond such child like gameplay will enjoy our actual hardware controllers.

Just, wow, HAHAHAHA, ahd this has been great. Thanks everyone for the laughs.

Said the guy with 19 minutes in the game. You probably didn't even have the time to take off.

PS I have an HOTAS, and I've played 10 times more with it in the last decade and an half than the time I've played with my VR controllers. In fact I've bought my VR headset originally without motion controllers to play flying games with the HOTAS.

[醉仙望月]

The developer just updated the answer in the FAQ:

Publicado originalmente por Paolo:

I don't think that there's a way to provide the level of interaction that I'm aiming for while using a HOTAS, especially with all of the cockpit systems like the MFDs and touch screens. Although it may be technically possible with a mouse, head pointing, or some combination of HOTAS and touch controls, it won't be without the clumsiness that I intended to move away from in the first place.

[mateusable]

I use X52 Pro HOTAS Joystick because the vr controllers is not have sensitivity like a real joystick, so is better use the real joystick. Have a mod to do this.