Ancient Cities

Ancient Cities

 This topic has been pinned, so it's probably important
UncasualGames  [developer] Jan 14 @ 8:31am
Now developing : Small groups of herbivores.
We are facing the first item of the animal hunting feature. We want to include small groups of herbivores in the local map. We will simulate nutrition, reproduction and dead. Dead bodies will be a source of resources. Animals will move in family groups. First animal will be the wild boar.

THIS ITEM WILL NOT INCLUDE HUNTING PARTIES YET.

What kind of animals are historically and geographically accurate? What tools were used to extract resources from dead animal bodies? How they craft those tools? What kind of interactions should happen with humans? Do you have any suggestions? Your comments are very important to us!

https://ancient-cities.com/roadmap.php

https://forum.ancient-cities.com/t/small-groups-of-herbivores/8238
Last edited by UncasualGames; Jan 22 @ 12:29am
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Showing 1-15 of 54 comments
Are you considering migrating herds on the global map?
UncasualGames  [developer] Jan 14 @ 8:46am 
Originally posted by Renegat_KAG:
Are you considering migrating herds on the global map?
Yes but not in this first item. It will be included in the following iterations of hunting feature
Last edited by UncasualGames; Jan 14 @ 8:48am
mecdel Jan 14 @ 10:33am 
wild board... Hımm, good :)
For the available area European bison, Aurochs, Moose, Capercaillie, Euroasian Lynx, Gray Wolf, Brown Bear, Golden Eagle, Deer, Roe, Hare and Fox fit. A polar bear also but only at the beginning of the timeline. Unfortunately, mammoths or Neanderthals are not very suitable. On the other hand, a woolly rhinoceros up to 6000 bc could appear here or there, but extremely rarely.
Makaan Jan 14 @ 1:08pm 
hi, my suggestions below

What kind of interactions should happen with humans?

- for small size species (like rabit, hare, roe) hunters would hunt as single hunter (animals escape when attacked), and will be great to see that single adult hunter can take young hunter as assitance (two pair of eyes see more than one pair)

- for middle size species (like deer, wild boar) hunters would hunt in small groups 3-5 people (1-2 hunters + 2-3 supporters which break their dutes for hunting time), and sometimes get damages (animal can defend when attacked),

- for big size species (like moose, auroch, bison) hunters would hunt in bigger groups 5-10 people (3 hunters + 2-5 supporters) and sometimes get serious damages including death, so decision for hunting is kind of risky

- for dengerous animals (wolf pack, bear, lynx) hunters should attack in bigger groups and only if those animal teritory is close to the village, because risk is of damages is high

also I suggest to not show animals on the map if they are out of range of human view, instead some tracks, droppings, which show animal existance,
if track is found by hunters then should prepare first (take right weapon, call folks) then start hunting by following tracks and finally unhide animal somwhere on the map and try to kill them (which should not be always succesfull)

people should be able to discover different hunting weapons : spears, bows, slings,

and also discover (by experience) different hunting tactics correct to the weapon, hunter group size and specie which will determine effectivness of the hunt

for example
wild boar hunting: spears, hunters keep small distance to attack (throwing spear) and if needed defend companions (push spear)

deer hunting: bows, hunters in distance try to make circle around animal to cut all escape ways if possible, because deer will try excape very fast,

hare hunting: slings, single hunter because the more people do mean more noise which can flush spooky specie

hunters should be able to find also already dead animals at the end of tracks (killed by predators or died by age/winter) sometimes

and would be great to see also : villagers fest (when big size animal is killed) or young hunter promote to experience hunter :)




Last edited by Makaan; Jan 14 @ 1:13pm
UncasualGames  [developer] Jan 14 @ 1:16pm 
This first development item not includes hunting parties only de animal group simulation and resource extraction from dead animals.
Delta-9 Jan 14 @ 1:49pm 
Small game: traps/bows/slingshot. Maybe later in years, pens to raise in the village.
Med. game: spears/bows/bola/net trap.
Large game: spear/bow/large pit trap.
Chance of injury or death when hunting large game. (unless its a pit trap kill)
As for the 1st iteration;
I can understand not having working hunting partys/groups yet. But, maybe we could use traps, craftable/buildable, and left in areas where there are animals. No hunting involved. Able to use the same resource extraction method you mention. No groups needed. (just gatherers)
Last edited by Delta-9; Jan 14 @ 1:51pm
Makaan Jan 14 @ 2:24pm 
What tools were used to extract resources from dead animal bodies?

fists - for cutting skins/furs/meat/tendons
axe - for breaking bones
scraper - for clearing skin/furs

How they craft those tools?

flint processing,

What kind of interactions should happen with humans?

animal body should be extracted at the place if is heavy or transported to village if is light, if 100 kg wild boar - then 2-3 people need to transport resources, if 3kg rabbit is found then even 10 year kid can transport it to the village

female of wild boars are agressive when have babies - humans should go away fast when meet wild boar pack with babies
Last edited by Makaan; Jan 14 @ 2:29pm
More bone tools (knives, spears) could appear. The bowstring of animal tendons is tempting too.

The tendon can also serve as an additional source of ropes.
Almost forgot about the European wild horse - Tarpan :D
Last edited by Renegat_KAG; Jan 14 @ 10:38pm
Mozo Jan 15 @ 1:44am 
Well if you are introducing game animals can you please introduce dogs? There is evidence of dogs and humans going back +40k years. Not only as companions but protection (ie carnivorous animals) for tribe members. For hunting they were key for flushing game out of thickets or flushing game into open areas or later strategic location (ie pit traps or cliffs) they were also used for emergency sources of protein and as pack animals before the domestication of the horse. Since you already have fish just add fish guts or deer guts or rabbit guts etc item to feed said dogs or just feed then fish or meat or bones. Later you can have a whole dog tec tree (herding, hunting, retrieving, working) that give added bonus to the "breed" you are creating, the whole tree can be mirrored easily for cattle or any domesticated animal. The Dog was the first and i believe your game should reflect that.

As per your request (sorry for length)
The animals to add
I like the five groups:
Small game: rabbits, squirrels, birds (ie turkey or ducks wild birds)
Domesticated: sheep, cattle, goats, horses, chickens
medium game: deer, boar, moose, elk
Carnivorous animals: lions or cougars, wolves
?Extinct animals?: rhinos, mammoth This is more the creative side, Aurochs were giant cows )from where we get modern cows) but are now gone, even things like bison, ibexes,or antelope were in Europe even 2000 ya. Also just for fun dragons?
Of course there are others in these groups plus groups all their own like mice, bugs or pests but the ones I mentioned are all hunt-able or dependable.

Now all these animals (minus fish and birds) are mammals so they should produce pretty much the same items. These include, meat (edible), guts (inedible except dogs or bait for fish) hide or fur (untreated), sinew or tendons (untreated?) and finally bone (whole)

1. So meat can be cooked or smoked or used as bait if that's an addition you like, but will expire after 2 weeks or so if unused. If cooked 3 weeks or so if smoked a season? This though is based largely off how you want to build the meat gathering system and what percentage of meat you get out of stone tools from one kill depending on size.
2. Next is guts of any creature which makes up most of the weight when you talking about herbivores ie elk or moose that roamed Europe 12000 years ago. These are mostly inedible (the heart and liver being an exception) unless processed via cleaning and cooking. Now without adding dogs or a bait feature these guts would be mostly useless and probably turned to trash or cooked down from 10 guts to 1 cooked meat (10:1). Granted some guts like goats bladders were used later for drinking vessels, wine making, beer making etc. or food like hagess
3.Furs of course were dated from 20k years ago so clothing or shelter. This will need to be tanned and you already have a hide tanner item in the inventory so I guess you are planning ahead. i would add a large and small tanning rack for the verity of game but you can easily say that small game is almost useless to tan so maybe 3 rabbit hide equals rope or hide belt? Now this is different then leather which doesn't come about till later and will require other items in order to do so plus large vats. This would be simple treated hide and not meant to last a lifetime maybe 3 in game seasons? Plus you could add hide bits or strips for further clothe making.
(side bar Adding salt is key to Neolithic life and will need to be added in order for a lot of human life to unfold. simple enough to add though with a salt flat much like your stick pile or rock area but for salt. The same idea can be used for flint ie flint pile or every 25 raw stone give flint something. Salt and flint #1 traded item 12k years ago)
4. Tendons are the oddest of the group because I have never learned how to process it if it even needs processing. It should be processed into rope, thread, belt or improved bow? Idk but I feel it needs to be in there some where.
5. Finally whole bone. Now depending on the era bone has been used for everything. Early in our evolution we mostly forged and ate bones from larger predators kills, and to this day humans have a taste for bone marrow. Early we would throw it in the fire to cook it, and if you think about the size of a wolley mammoth or rhino bone the marrow alone could feed a tribe of 20 people for a week and this holds true for common elk and moose, not so much deer or cattle and very rare for small game. If you are really against adding dogs then bone should be cooked down to meat and bone fragments the ratio being the size of the animal. mammoth 100:1 elk 50:1 deer cattle 25:1 small game 5:1. bone frags can be turned into the 3 pronged trident you already have in game or added to basic spear if you don't want to add flint yet, arrow tips, tools then later jewelry, musical instruments ie flutes and decorative items ie drinking horns or camp decoration.

Now from what I have read it seems more like you are going for the scavenging approach for now so without carnivores to kill boar for your tribe your gonna have to wait. A full pig of the neolithic was larger then the common wild boars of today that are 170-220 lbs. Now forgetting cultural taboos over pork a 200 lbs pig could yield 60 lbs guts 40 lbs bones 100 lbs of meat plus 2 meter squared of hide and 10 feet of sinew? and avg person could eat 1 lbs of salted or smoked pork a "day" 20 lbs a "day" for the tribe giving you 5 "days" of food. The bones could be cooked at 20:1 to give you more cooked meat or bone frags. Then guts could be cooked down 10:1 to cooked meat.
So one dead adult boar that hasn't been ruined by carnivores would yield;
100 uncooked meat --> 100 cooked/smoked/salted
60 guts --> 6-10 cooked meat
40 bones --> 4 cooked meat 10 bone fragments
2 tendons --> improve bow or 1 belt or 10 thread
1 untreated hide --> 1 treated hide (for shelter) --> 4 hide strips (for clothes)

Now a boar lives 14 years on avg so in game time that would be like 3 years or so. They have litters of 6-10 but only once a year and only after they mature. So in a boars 3 year in game life the first year they have 0 litters the second year they can have 6-10 babies that will not have a litter the same year they were born. so the 1st gen will have their second litter, and the 2nd gen will have their 1st litter. at the winter of of 3rd year the 1st generation will die. now with this type of breeding you will have exponential growth in the boar pop unless you add diseases or migration. Migration will be a key component going forward with herbivores going to higher elevations in the summer season and lower elevations in the winter.

You already have the tools in game, the bifod tool was largely used with stone axes to skin, butcher and debone 90% of all game. Not until the advent of copper and bronze work did we make specialized tools ie swords, spear points, axes, knives etc. Literally when you made the bifod you made the Swiss army knife of the stone age so outside the addition of flint into the game (which maybe increases the amount of usable item you get out of carcasses and later for upgrading arrows and spears) you don't need to add much in the way of tools until you reach the bronze age.

The behavior of these animals should be like they are now. they will keep a minimum distance from humans during the day but at night during the winter might come to raid baskets and pits? Since there is no hunting then mostly in the day they are in meadows then in the evening go into forest. Pigs also like to root around for nuts and bugs so maybe you find then moving between stick piles? Mostly make sure they don't over populate or under populate leaving you swimming in pigs or even worse pigless.

Thank you for reading this far hope the ideas help. To warn you I have a larger list of feedback I was thinking of posting but i want it a little more orginized then this rant.

Overall decent job guys and we all wish you luck going forward.
Mozo Jan 15 @ 1:58am 
Originally posted by Makaan:
hi, my suggestions below

What kind of interactions should happen with humans?

- for small size species (like rabit, hare, roe) hunters would hunt as single hunter (animals escape when attacked), and will be great to see that single adult hunter can take young hunter as assitance (two pair of eyes see more than one pair)

- for middle size species (like deer, wild boar) hunters would hunt in small groups 3-5 people (1-2 hunters + 2-3 supporters which break their dutes for hunting time), and sometimes get damages (animal can defend when attacked),

- for big size species (like moose, auroch, bison) hunters would hunt in bigger groups 5-10 people (3 hunters + 2-5 supporters) and sometimes get serious damages including death, so decision for hunting is kind of risky

- for dengerous animals (wolf pack, bear, lynx) hunters should attack in bigger groups and only if those animal teritory is close to the village, because risk is of damages is high

also I suggest to not show animals on the map if they are out of range of human view, instead some tracks, droppings, which show animal existance,
if track is found by hunters then should prepare first (take right weapon, call folks) then start hunting by following tracks and finally unhide animal somwhere on the map and try to kill them (which should not be always succesfull)

people should be able to discover different hunting weapons : spears, bows, slings,

and also discover (by experience) different hunting tactics correct to the weapon, hunter group size and specie which will determine effectivness of the hunt

for example
wild boar hunting: spears, hunters keep small distance to attack (throwing spear) and if needed defend companions (push spear)

deer hunting: bows, hunters in distance try to make circle around animal to cut all escape ways if possible, because deer will try excape very fast,

hare hunting: slings, single hunter because the more people do mean more noise which can flush spooky specie

hunters should be able to find also already dead animals at the end of tracks (killed by predators or died by age/winter) sometimes

and would be great to see also : villagers fest (when big size animal is killed) or young hunter promote to experience hunter :)


All these are great ideas for a hunting and would be pretty straight forward to build. Just make a work group and depending on how many people you assign to the group decides what you hunt. 1-3 work group hunts small game by themselves or medium game together. 3-7 sized work group can hunt 6 small game or 2 medium game or 1 large game at a time or season.

Im guessing its going to be a gatherer function to start with. The work group searches the surrounding land for dead pig the when a person finds the dead pig and the rest of the work group shows up to skin, butcher then take the bones back to camp.

But listen to this dude Uncasual Games that is a pretty dope hunting system.
gouryell Jan 15 @ 3:38am 
Makaan and Mozo propositions work very well together and are smart and easy to understand and stay in prehistoric logic.
I would like to add the importance to add smart peoples in hunting group to increase the success rate. I mean lambda people group has less than 30% of chance to kill a prey.
The addition of 1 smart people increase the rate by 30% and give experiences to other people in hunting group.
And when you add young people to this group they learn and become more smart than last generation (i mean they make things more fastly or more efficiently)
i hope it's understandable
- could start with rabbits, foxes like small animals
now, if you want a medium-sized animal, you can start with deer, which are quite common around the world.
as they are herbivores, they could consume plants like the ones they use to make straw houses and, once the straw ran out, they would go elsewhere.
-Now the tools used chipped stone tools to debon the animals and remove their skins, then using tools composed of bone to work the meat and skin of dead animals.
like the ancients, they did not touch dead animals in the place where he was killed in order not to attract predators and carried animals to his village and extracted skin, meat and bones there. I recommend adding a column construction to hang the animals for resource extraction.
Donoda Jan 15 @ 7:04am 
Maybe the first interaction should be not hunting but the animals “stealing” recourse form the tribe – and so adding value (purpose) in making fences – to avoid this stealing.
UncasualGames  [developer] Jan 15 @ 7:15am 
Originally posted by Donoda:
Maybe the first interaction should be not hunting but the animals “stealing” recourse form the tribe – and so adding value (purpose) in making fences – to avoid this stealing.
That is a great idea!
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